Savage wins Hickory Groundhog shoot

[tiny68]

But one thing to consider...you don't have to pay taxes when you buy your rifle out of state off the net

Very true.... but i don't have a FFL and the local gun (pawn) shops want 10% or $40 for the transaction fee. And I ain't gonna give to them.

tiny

 

[mysticplayer]

Fair game, maybe not fair play

VG, I am sure you read that other groups were using the same strategy of using the same rifle. That would cover various brands of rifles both factory and custom.

How can you call something "cheating", when it is within the rules and practised by many?

It might not fit into your sense of fair play. No argument there from me but if something is within the letter of the rules, why not?

When I shoot at an F class match, I look at the wind flags and the effect on other shooters scores (each shot is marked). Is that being devious to use the results of others to try and enhance mine? Is it wrong?

Of course not. No rule against it and it just makes good sense.

Now the example you had above about the rebarreled factory rifle was WRONG and unsportmanslike. Polite way of saying they cheated. They broke the letter and intent of the rules and got busted.

So until the Hickory decides to rule that form of shooting strategy out, its fair game. Not necessarily fair play. And yes, it doesn't sit well with me either.

However, congrats to the Savage shooters who took home a tough victory. Beat the mega dollar rigs with the same game.

Jerry

PS as to the looks of Savage, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

 

[dipper]

savage

I would like to suggest that Varmit Guy take one or all of his great shooting rifles to a couple of matches and get a win like Jason did.
Sounds like he has some great shooters and when he beats up those ugly Savages, we'll all sit up and take notice!!

Rich

 

[drover]

Jhunt - congratulations on your win, regardless of the type of rifle you did it with that is fine shooting, no matter if was a box stock Savage or a full blown custom, beating that many competitors is an outstanding feat.

As far as the disparaging comments being made by the disgruntled poster I would not give them any credance. From his rant and the tone of his posting it seems as though he is not a competitive shooter and certainly has no understanding of the strategies involved in competitive shooting. He often posts of his "great" shooting rifles and his fantastically small groups but these always seem to be done on his range, and nowhere do I recall seeing reports of certified targets or moving backers or even any evidence of the distance that these fantastic groups were shot at, other than his posting. I am always amazed at how many of his reported groups would be a record setting group.

In his posts both here and on other sites where I have seen his posts as general rule he is the expert and the rest of us are lacking in skill and knowledge in comparison with his capabilities and vast storehouse of knowledge. His normal tactics are to shout down any dissenting poster and disparage their comments and constantly challenge them to "prove it" to him.

To sum it up - there is a quote that has attributed to both Abe Lincoln and Mark Twain, it pretty well describes most of his posts.

"Arguing with an expert is like wrestling with a pig in the mud… after a while you realize the pig enjoys it"

 

[VarmintGuy]

Uhh drover the chip on YOUR shoulder is looking so big it must burden you in many ways!
I will publicly ask you to "prove up" on your obvious embellishments here!
Starting with just one of them for now, which group size I have posted "would be a record setting group"?
Now be forewarned there drover - I am going to insist you back up that outrageous exaggeration or "shut up"!
Is that the kind of person you are - you just make things up to try to denigrate people with?
Shallow that!
And if you consider that request of you as a "shouting down" then you are simply whacky!
I have shouted at no one including you and you obviously now deserve it.
I do not consider nor do I purport to be an expert BUT I do advise you that I have been shooting Rifles, of virtually all makes and models for going on 50 years (half a century!) now and I stand by my contention, (even though you may not agree with it!) savage bolt action Rifles do not have the "corner" on factory Rifle accuracy!
Attack that premise if you wish but you better have proof and don't try to dismiss my experiences and observations by calling me "disgruntled"!
I'm not. Thats baseless and adds nothing to this discussion.
Looking forward to your post where you prove up!
Something tells me you can't and won't!
Typical.
They have a saying for that type person here in Montana "all hat and no cattle"!
That seems to fit you.
Keep "editing"!

Mysticplayer: Pardon me if I left you with the wrong impression of the savage fellows at the Varmint Hunters Jamboree - seeings they did not win, place or show they (he!) were not sanctioned or disqualified from that competition.
I was not part of the decision making group there so I am not sure what they would have done/allowed had the shooter placed! And I agree with you there that was an out and out flagrant violation at a fun type shoot although they had prizes there!
It appears from your posting that you are taking both sides of the Hickory Shoot "winner" situation, and their tactic - is it fair play or is it not?
I think its not.
I am sure most of the competitors in that discipline where the savage "team" came out on top (notice I did not say win - as THEY did not win only one person won!) did not have a "team" of other shooters to rely on! And I am sure those "other" competitors travelled some distance and paid their entry fees and hoped to compete one on one for fun and fame at a "fair" competition!
I never said the rules were violated - I do say the spirit of fairplay and sportsmanship was violated.
Again I agree with you when you say, that type of "victory" does not sit well with me either.
Not because the co-conspirators were savage types but because they conspired to exit from fair play and good sportsmanship!
Long live fair play and good sportsmanship!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

 

[dipper]

matches

I would like to suggest that Varmit Guy take one or all of his great shooting rifles to a couple of matches and get a win like Jason did.
Sounds like he has some great shooters and when he beats up those ugly Savages, we'll all sit up and take notice!!

Hey dude, just go kick their butts---sounds like you have the skill and rifles to do it.
You just ain't a 'puter shooter are you??
Go get 'em man!!


Rich

 

[tylerw02]

Recutting the chamber means its not a Savage chamber anymore and no longer a factory rifle...but the same could be said of bedding. There has to be a limit. If chambers can be re-cut, why not allow re-boring and re-rifling? New barrels? There has to be a line somewhere. If one make can have it done, then all should be allowed the same consideration. Same should go for resetting headspace like is done on many Savage rifles.


You guys are being hard of VG, maybe rightfully so, but you keep telling him to put up or shot up....when are we going to you guys do the same in a real BR match?

Also, shooting 400, 500, 600 yards isn't the same ball game. A good .25 MOA shooter with a 1 MOA rifle will out shoot a 1.5MOA shooter with a .25 MOA rifle. And to be honest, you throw in a windy day and its all load/cartridge and shooter and less rifle.

 

[mysticplayer]

VG, ever watch NASCAR? An individual sport run by multi driver teams.

Try winning one of these races if other "drivers" don't help you in the draft.

Being a privateer in this sport must be more for 'fun' cause you aren't going to be doing alot of winning.

And yes, I would be pretty mad if I showed up at the Hickory alone and saw this type of teamwork.

Jerry

 

[tylerw02]

VG, ever watch NASCAR? An individual sport run by multi driver teams.

Try winning one of these races if other "drivers" don't help you in the draft.

Being a privateer in this sport must be more for 'fun' cause you aren't going to be doing alot of winning.

And yes, I would be pretty mad if I showed up at the Hickory alone and saw this type of teamwork.

Jerry

I didn't know there were a team of Savage shooters that only worked with Savage shooters against shooters of custom guns, Remingtons, Sako, Tikka, or Winchester shooters.

 

[chino69]

What do the rules say?

I have been to lots of different types of Rifle Competitions and have as yet to witness this type of behavior and collaboration!
It seems the fair way to compete is for each competitor to have their own Rifle and succeed or fail upon the merits of their own singular efforts!
This "so called win" - at the Hickory is getting lots of attention AND now it seems, scrutiny!
I don't know - I wasn't there, but if in fact the win was a result of three shooters "collaboration" then I would consider that a hollow and ill gotten gain!
AND, poor sportsmanship AT BEST!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

VarmintGuy,
What do the rules say?
Chino69

 

[mysticplayer]

I didn't know there were a team of Savage shooters that only worked with Savage shooters against shooters of custom guns, Remingtons, Sako, Tikka, or Winchester shooters.

Was simply to illustrate that there are other individual sports that are not won independently.

However, a brand vs brand shoot would be interesting. Would give the factory class a whole new meaning

Jerry

 

[JHunt]

Varmit Guy, Have you ever shot in the VHA Jamboree or the Hickory Ground shoot. If so how many times. Do you shoot any other disiplines like IBS or NBRSA. A man of your caliber has bound to have won something.

 

[milanuk]

I didn't know there were a team of Savage shooters that only worked with Savage shooters against shooters of custom guns, Remingtons, Sako, Tikka, or Winchester shooters.

Sure there is.

Team Savage (2007)

 

[JerrySharrett]

Jason is absolutely correct in his appraisal of match strategy for the Hickory Ground hog match. Think of it as a team sport. We do. Plenty of folks have done great with a solo effort as well. This year was the twenty-eighth annual match and it continues to attract hundreds of shooters. That fact speaks volumes about how much fun we have with the match format that Larry Willis devised. If you can you should join us and give it a try. It is the most fun of any match I shoot.

Greg

Teaming on a single gun has been in use for some time at Hickory. I can't speak for the other egg shoots but it is a good strategy.

If "factory" vs. "custom" is a big issue, lump them all together. The only other solution would be have pages and pages of rules and we don't want that.

Larry Willis has always had a great shoot and good food. I've seen license plates from Wyoming, Florida, Michigan, Pennsylvania and many others drive into that cow pasture and hay field to just shoot a total of ten shots. Lets don't mess with it!!

 

[chino69]

Don't mess with a good thing

Teaming on a single gun has been in use for some time at Hickory. I can't speak for the other egg shoots but it is a good strategy.

If "factory" vs. "custom" is a big issue, lump them all together. The only other solution would be have pages and pages of rules and we don't want that.

Larry Willis has always had a great shoot and good food. I've seen license plates from Wyoming, Florida, Michigan, Pennsylvania and many others drive into that cow pasture and hay field to just shoot a total of ten shots. Lets don't mess with it!!

Jerry,
Well said!
Chino69

 

[VarmintGuy]

Drover: Still waiting for your "prove up"!
How long will I have to wait?
All hat and NO cattle?
If you prefer a retraction, or more editing, would be in order!

Tyler02: A lot of folks are VERY good at personal attacks when they see something posted that irks them or irritates their agenda driven rationalizations.
Its a fact of cyber life.
I have been personally attacked by a lot of these types but the underlying fact is none of them defend the clunkiness, the poor styling, the cheap components AND the ugliness of savage bolt action Rifles!
And as previously posted that is one of my points - AND now, they are over-priced!
That, and I still contend the spirit of fair play was VIOLATED in this particular competition - unless each and every competitor had a team that tuned up his or her Rifle prior to that competitors "turn" - then the "win" was shallow and reminiscent of poor sportsmanship!
And I do have a strong sense of fairness and fairplay being an integral part of sportsmanship.
Winning at all "costs" (as in this instance!) is not appealing or impressive to me - at all!
No matter what the rationalization or level of personal attacks I won't "concede" that this "win" was sporting!
My personal integrity is more important to me than it obviously is to some others - it seems!
Fair play AND sportsmanship ARE important for every honorable person!
Long live fair play AND sportsmanship!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

 

[clint]

Here is what was posted over at RFC and linked here along with a comment,

All you remmy worshippers- bow down to the alter of SAVAGE! hahahhahaa!!!!!!!

http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=224249

 

[dan newberry]

Varmint Guy...

Find us one member here--other than yourself--who actually believes that Remington rifles are just as accurate as Savages (out of the box).

As far as aesthetics, that's all a matter of opinion. When one guy thinks Savages are ugly and the next guy says they're pretty, we're talking about opinions.

However...

You can actually quantify, scientifically, that Savage beats Remington when it comes to accuracy.

Since this is a fact disputable only by the most inept thinkers among us, one must then ask oneself "Do I buy a rifle to hit what I'm shooting at, or do I buy a rifle just to look at... and fondle?"

I go for accuracy--the most I can afford. So Savage rules.

If you'd rather sit around in your underwear watching Jim Zumbo on the television and stroking your Remington, that's great.

However...

Some of us are serious riflemen who want a SERIOUS rifle. That's why many of us (myself included) who once looked down on Savages have now come to respect and appreciate them.

Dan

 

[Hal]

When you "team up" who gets the trophy, or do you just cut the trophy into equal parts?

Savage has a good product. Why don't they have someone come in and design a nice looking rifle. That's the single biggest complaint you hear about SAVAGE"their uggggly".

Hal

 

[tylerw02]

Find us one member here--other than yourself--who actually believes that Remington rifles are just as accurate as Savages (out of the box).

As far as aesthetics, that's all a matter of opinion. When one guy thinks Savages are ugly and the next guy says they're pretty, we're talking about opinions.

However...

You can actually quantify, scientifically, that Savage beats Remington when it comes to accuracy.

Since this is a fact disputable only by the most inept thinkers among us, one must then ask oneself "Do I buy a rifle to hit what I'm shooting at, or do I buy a rifle just to look at... and fondle?"

I go for accuracy--the most I can afford. So Savage rules.

If you'd rather sit around in your underwear watching Jim Zumbo on the television and stroking your Remington, that's great.

However...

Some of us are serious riflemen who want a SERIOUS rifle. That's why many of us (myself included) who once looked down on Savages have now come to respect and appreciate them.

Dan

Dan, my experience has been quite mixed. I've seen some Savages that shot very very well and some that shoot very very poorly--right out of the box. The same to Remington. I've seen several of each that shoot .5 moa out of the box. I've recently saw one Savage that wouldn't group under 3 moa with any factory ammo that has been tried in it, no matter who was shooting it. The Savage owner then shot my then stock SPS and recorded a .7 moa group, then me following it up with about a .4 moa group. Meanwhile, a friend of mine has a 7oo Police model that won't group but moa with factory loads....another friend has a similar Savage that would shoot .6 moa with just about any factory load.

I've pulled apart many of the "pillar bedded" Savage rifles that had pillars cut so shorty they didn't do their job at all...while others were nearly perfect.

Personally, I've been quite satisfied with my Remington 700s and will continue to be so long as they are the quality they are now. One can literally buy a great varmint gun for $550 bucks OTD from Remington. Granted, it has a cheap POS plastic stock. But bedding the lug area and the tip, its a great shooter. I bought mine used from one of those guys that complained about Remington quality control and paid a whopping $350 cash with bases and rings...I put 40 rounds of factory ammo in it shooting 5 round groups and my groups ranged from .43 moa to .91 moa with the average right around .6 moa. This is before tweaking. I won't say what the guy I got the gun from grouped with his replacement rifle on average, but his best to date has been .75 moa. Meanwhile another friend and sole Savage shooter has four or five sub 1/2 moa factory Savage rifles with nothing but trigger jobs and bedding. One particular rifle wears a new handmade Cooperish style stock. It shoots around .25-.3 moa...........but so does my bedded VLS.


ETA: At today's going rate for Savage rifles, they are hardly a bargain like they once were. I've heard too many horror stories from LRPV rifles to justify $900 for them compared to $750 for a 700P or $650 for a VLS. I can "bed" the laminate stock for about $10 and it will be much better of a fit than any H-S Precision stock. After this last H-S, you won't catch me doing business with them again.

Also, I'm out front...I learned on Remington and like them best. I have a bias in favor of Remington as they've always worked for me in the past. However, I have no bias against Savage. In the future I want to put together a single-shot Savage: I'll use a custom barrel and do my own stock/bedding work.