New .6 rule POLL

All this hate and discontent over a maximum of .4 tenths of a point per match per class. That's 4 points per class if you had every bench full and won every relay in a year. And OBTW they earned those points. Anybody want to buy some 1k yd. rifles? I was in a position to shoot more this year but I've had enough of the poor pitiful disenfranchised whiny cry babies that want something for nothing.
Ah, keep your rifles & come shoot with us, Dave. Neither one of us was going to win the Gas Can trophy anyway.

If schedules permit, maybe we can talk Regan out of retirement, throw Shelp in the back of the truck, go to the Nationals, & take the team money again.
 
I'm in favor of the .6 rule. Winning a relay represents "the cut" to get to competing against others who similarly won their relay - in match head-to head play. Bottom line is a person should not be awarded more points for a relay win than a match win. I view the issue as one of folks (none of whom I personally know and thus have nothing against) who happen to be good shooters wanting to stack the deck on their relay in order to accumulate points. If I saw that happening to me, as a rookie, I'd leave the sport. Relays should be set randomly and with as even numbers as the number of shooters allows. Folks should want to compete on a reasonably level playing field in order to develop and demonstrate their skill - but it appears some folks are less comfortable with purer competition and are more interested in points gained at the expense of fairness.

Mike
 
We need to fix the problems before clubs began to go differant directions. I am for the new rule and beleive if you want to shoot 20 bench relays, then slit them in half. The match will sill get finished in the same timeframe and will help eliminate the problems. ShannonLowman
 
I do not agree with the rule. I would like to propose a solution, apparently almost all ranges are splitting relays. I would like the option to advance two shooters to the shoot off(two for group and two for score) from a relay with 12 or more shooters and split the relay win points, using old formula (.05 X number of shooters in relay)Splitting points would be equal to .025 X number of shooters in relay for each shooter who advances to shoot off. The end result is same as splitting relays, but more fair in my opinion. If a range likes to split relays, then let them, If they don't give them the option to take first and second in group and score to the shoot off. If that don't level the playing field, I don't know what will.

In my opinion splitting relays is bending the rules, and a shooter could shoot a better group or score, than a person that made a shoot off.

This will double the number of shooters in shoot off's. This system will make it fair for a range with 10 benches or a range with 20. We could also advance three shooters(three for group and three for score) from a relay larger than 25, just is case a range decides to add on. As range time becomes more difficult to get at our range. There are two new ranges with 20 benches and I can foresee problems in future.

Gordy Mitchell
 
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Gordy, you have a constructive proposal that should unite and be fair to all. The .6 rule should still be dropped.
 
With fairness in mind, I think the long range commitee should be excused, and have a member from each range be the spokesperson for that range, and that can be the new long range committee.
 
I do not agree with the rule. I would like to propose a solution, apparently almost all ranges are splitting relays. I would like the option to advance two shooters to the shoot off(two for group and two for score) from a relay with 12 or more shooters and split the relay win points, using old formula (.05 X number of shooters in relay)Splitting points would be equal to .025 X number of shooters in relay for each shooter who advances to shoot off. The end result is same as splitting relays, but more fair in my opinion. If a range likes to split relays, then let them, If they don't give them the option to take first and second in group and score to the shoot off. If that don't level the playing field, I don't know what will.

In my opinion splitting relays is bending the rules, and a shooter could shoot a better group or score, than a person that made a shoot off.

This will double the number of shooters in shoot off's. This system will make it fair for a range with 10 benches or a range with 20. We could also advance three shooters(three for group and three for score) from a relay larger than 25, just is case a range decides to add on. As range time becomes more difficult to get at our range. There are two new ranges with 20 benches and I can foresee problems in future.

Gordy Mitchell

Interesting but that clearly is a new agenda item for the January 2013 winter meeting! We understood what and how relays were to be done when the change was voted on and any deviation from that is bending the rules established then.
 
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With fairness in mind, I think the long range commitee should be excused, and have a member from each range be the spokesperson for that range, and that can be the new long range committee.

Cannot do that according to the bylaws. Make it an agenda item for the January 2013 winter meetings.
 
Interesting but that clearly is a new agenda item for the January 2013 winter meeting! We understood what and how relays were to be done when the change was voted on and any deviation from that is bending the rules established then.
And, it is a patch. Sooner or later, a range will come along with 25 or 30 benches? Now what?

I fail to see how splitting the line into two relays is in any way "bending" the rules.

Perhaps the Harris people need another practice. If the wind is from 5 to 7 MPH out of the northwest for relay one (all 20 benches), they have to wait until in is quite different for relay two. Otherwise, if it's still 5-7 MPH out of the northwest, someone on relay 2 might get into the shootoffs with a worse target than someone on relay one.

Sounds like the guy on relay one who didn't make the shootoff one would stamp his foot, grimace, and hold his breath until he turned blue.

Hell's Bells, I've been known to complain if I drew a certain bench, never mind relay. Like bench 1 at Hawks Ridge if the wind was up. 'Course if there was not much wind, it was a Honey Hole. At some level, things just aren't fair, period.
 
And, it is a patch. Sooner or later, a range will come along with 25 or 30 benches? Now what?.

Charles, You must not have read all my post.

This will double the number of shooters in shoot off's. This system will make it fair for a range with 10 benches or a range with 20. We could also advance three shooters(three for group and three for score) from a relay larger than 25, just is case a range decides to add on. As range time becomes more difficult to get at our range. There are two new ranges with 20 benches and I can foresee problems in future.

Gordy Mitchell
 
How do you figure Bob, shoot off points at a club that has 15-20 shooter is less than a club with 40 shooters. The whiny people wanted the relay points changed because they have 12 benchs and 40 shooters. Some clubs can't add shooters that are not there just like some can't add benchs. So when "because it's fair" comes up you need to change both relay and shoot offs, not just a part that benefits some club with 12 benchs and 40 shooters.
Nothing is unfair about shoot offs .03 times total shooters. A club with 40 shooters shooting 20 man relays ,one shooter will get .5 more than 10 man relays per gun. A total of 1 point per match and the club with only 10 or 12 benchs cannot do anything to make this even if they do not have space for more benchs.
 
My point is that if both clubs have 40 total people. There is nothing wrong with the points in the shoot offs. Just the relays.
 
Charles, You must not have read all my post.

This will double the number of shooters in shoot off's. This system will make it fair for a range with 10 benches or a range with 20. We could also advance three shooters(three for group and three for score) from a relay larger than 25, just is case a range decides to add on. As range time becomes more difficult to get at our range. There are two new ranges with 20 benches and I can foresee problems in future.

Gordy Mitchell

Mr. Mitchell, I did read all your post. If you generalize to accommodate the day when we have a 30-bench range, what you're saying is you advance 1 shooter per 10 (or maximum of 10) to the shootoff.

And of course, that's what the rest of us who advocate shooting simultaneous relays have been doing for years.

The difference is you seem to feel -- or members of your club are pressuring you to feel -- it is somehow unfair if a shooter on, say bench 6 has a higher score/smaller group than a shooter on bench 16, but does not move on.

The point I've been trying to make is that drawing particular benches is just as unfair. If you've been shooting long enough, you know that. I only shot Pella once, at the 2005 Nationals. As I remember, the very low benches and bench 20 gave you the greatest chances. OK. In a regular match -- relays & a shootoff -- your best chance of getting into the shootoff if you draw bench 9 is to only have to beat one end of the line, not both. So, which system is "more unfair"?

In other words, the perceived injustice is just that, an armchair exercise in mathematics, not a real-world situation -- Unless, somehow, all of Harris' benches produce an equal chance. Sight unseen, I don't believe they do. There are always Honey Holes, which may change under different conditions. That's why there is bench rotation at big matches in point-blank benchrest.

And on the off-chance you haven't noticed to date, Life isn't completely fair. Some of us are just poor, not "pre-rich."

Accepting that there will be some injustice no matter what system you choose, there is an advantage to having simultaneous relays: no rule change is needed. Historically, we've been doing it for years on those few ranges that used more than 12 benches. As an established solution, using it will generate much less whining and complains, save from some newcommers who come up with constructions where it is "unfair."

The whole .6 maximum issue should never have come up, because the relays should never have been allowed to go over 10-12 shooters per relay to start with.

BTW, variations on your idea are not new. We mooted it back in the days when a few new clubs were shooting five or six benches per relay, when the rest of us were shooting 10-11.
 
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Keep .6 rule untill a cap can be put on the number of shooters in a relay. 30 to 40 shooters at a match and only 4 shooters in a shoot off. Thats BS!!!


Thomas Ellington aka Four On
 
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Dave if you don't sell your rifles Jim has the range spoken for labor day weekend so we're gonna shoot and we'd like to have ya. Out here we don't put up with wining or crybabies so come join us and have a good time. Seems like everyone has forgotten why we do this. It's about good friends, good times, and good practical jokes. If you want some of each see us at CRC in September. BY the way if you still wanna sell those gun's I'll make you same offer I made Regan and I'll bet ya you call me the same names!!!


Bryan Kopriva

P.s. Invite Shelp and Fletcher if you have too!!!
 
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Dave if you don't sell your rifles Jim has the range spoken for labor day weekend so we're gonna shoot and we'd like to have ya. Out here we don't put up with wining or crybabies so come join us and have a good time. Seems like everyone has forgotten why we do this. It's about good friends, good times, and good practical jokes. If you want some of each see us at CRC in September.


+1
 
Yes...but not all clubs have 40 total shooters just like they don't all have 20 shooters in a relay. So why should shooter numbers matter for one set of points but doesn't matter for the other?
 
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