Bullet Making (originally owned by Stephen Perry)

[Fla mac]

BR Bullet Making

All,
I just got started in bullet making, I have made about 1000. I have 30 cal. dies from Blackmon, I ordered two punch holders, one for core setting, and one of pointing that way I don't have a lot ot setup between the two steps.
I use a RCBS Rockcucker press. I don't think I would want to make more than about 200 bullet at one time, your arm starts to not want to work right. After I seat the cores I will point them the next day and I look inside the cored jacket to see if there is a very small amount of lead the squirets out around the punch. I also hold the punch in the jacket about 10 sec. when setting the each core, I understand the lead will continue to move after you first seat it just like when you are making cores.

I think a bullet making forum would be nice, there are two people in my club making bullets now.

John
Mims, Fl.

 

[Al Nyhus]

Al, with that press system how do you know that the jacket has been fully bumped out to the core seater diameter if the jacket starts and finishes on the punch?

I measured the i.d. of the core seating die with a pin guage, so that's a known dimenson.

For anyone just starting out with Larry's setup, this is one of the most important recommendations I'd make. Once that dimension is known, the rest of the core seating operation falls nicely into place.

If you don't have a pin guage set, trot the die down to a local machine shop or your favorite 'smith and have them drop a pin in there. Larry is as accomodating a person as you'll ever deal with and I'm sure he'd supply that info if requested.

 

[Al Nyhus]

Stephen Perry gave me a neat little tip when I started out:

When weighing your lube, take a small piece of waxed paper, cut it into a square and weigh it. Then, add the lube to the piece of waxed paper and reweigh....keeping in mind how much the waxed paper weighs. Add or subtract lube to the waxed paper until you get to the desired weight. Then, take the piece of waxed paper and rub the inside of the glass jar to distribute the lube.

It's little stuff like this that makes you smile.

Thanks again, Stephen! -Al

 

[Gerry]

Br Bullet making

One thing fellas.
There should be no bleed back on the punch during core seating. If there
you should get a tad bigger punch. You may be only .0005 away.

That system Al Is using is and working horizontal is fine.
I have set my B+A style dies up in a vise to try that before.
It works.
Some people have them set on an angle. with special mounting plates.
You can tell when the core is seated by measuring the length of the jacket the way george does it or by checking the lead line at the mouth end.
too much pressure will leave a scrape. or halo at the lead line.

I personaly like the B+A style dies. {to each his own}
Als system alows him a catch with that plastic tray.
You can rig up something for the B+A system for a catch also.

 

[Gerry]

Br Bullet making

J Valentine
When i speak of pure copper . i'm talking common copper .
Not chemical copper or chemical lead.
I'm sure something else is in there
Have you used any Sierra jackets?
I found them to be very good }at least the batch i had}
They seem to point up easy. I can say though that the J4 jackets i have gotten over the years are really good.

 

[Stephen Perry]

Core Seating

The issue of core seating is one that has several methods that need to be reviewed. Methods so far are close but there are some discrepancies among the Posters. We all agree that cores must be clean thus the steps to degrease and oxidize the cores. All feel core punch selection is critical to get the best punch to seat the core with. I stated as others setting up core punch pressure should be determinied by measuring the jacket for expansion below the lead line. A seated core can only expand the jacket to the inside diameter of the core seating die. Trying to exceed the pressure limit of the die could rupture the die. Therefore measurements are necessary when setting up your core seating die.

Where there seems to be a difference of opinion is whether bleed-by is acceptable in the core seating operation. I feel bleed-by is a by-product of the core seating operation as do many. Some feel you should not have any bleed-by. My feeling about core seating is you cannot match the punch to the jacket so close as to not have an exit space for lead to escape when the core seating is going on without scraping the wall of the jacket. Therefore when selecting your core punch keep in mind that bleed-by is a natural by-product of core seating. But bleed-by should a bare minimum, excessive bleed-by means you need to go with a tighter fitting punch. For a new bullet maker I would consult with your Mentor on punch selection and setting up your core punch.

Al those are great pictures. Blackmon makes some nice bullet making equipment. I have always enjoyed your pictures on bullet making since you started, how many years now?

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR

 

[Al Nyhus]

Stephen, I agree with you on the bleed-by. There's no upside to fitting the core seating punch so tightly to the jacket i.d. that it doesn't allow for some bleed-by. In that scenario, there's a good chance of dinging up the inside of the jacket and/or some air getting trapped under the base of the core. I don't think 'trapped air' cores are neccesary going to shoot loose, but with some air between the bottom of the core and the floor of the jacket.....I imagine the base concentricity relative to the perpendicular axis of the shank is going to be out there in the next zip code. But again....that's just my thoughts on it. The reality may indeed be different.

I know what I like to see for bleed-by with my setup, but that's just with my junk. This may not directly cross over to the next guy with a high end Ulrich or Neimi setup.

Like George Ulrich posted earlier, there are a lot of wives tales and voodoo myth out there about bullet making. Some is fact and some isn't. I'd sure never tell anyone what they're doing is either right or wrong. The proof is on the target, no matter how you arrive there.

Heck, I made some bullets with oiled cores ...just to see how bad they grouped. They all dumped into a nice hole. Go figger......

Thanks for the nice comments on the pics and for your suggestions early on in my efforts. I've been making bullets for three seasons now and continue to find it a fascinating effort.

Good shootin'. -Al

 

[caroby]

Yep, great thread...Going well. Way to go Al..! Nice photos and explanation!
CLEAN CLEAN, CLEAN! Al's photos show this... Nice.
Like my Blackmon setup too... Makes FINE Benchrest Bullets!

With time and good mentoring I have come to understand what feels right when Core swage and core seating. During core seating when "all is right" exact core seat punch fit for Absolute minimum lead bleed by (>and air escape<) and just the lightest hint of lead line witnessed on the exterior of the jacket (with an optical loop).
Utilizing the optical loop to peer into the jacket one should see a perfectly uniform (around the diam of the jacket/lead seat) ultra thin lead bleed no higher than about .0005 or so up the jacket wall.
The diam measured just below the lead line will be the full diam of the core seat die. This = some really fine Benchrest bullets.! Wish I could take a pic of a finished core seated jacket... Camera I have won't cut it.

Going with more pressure will result in stressing the jacket, yielding a bright lead line that is very obvious. The jacket will be excessively streched and can seperate.. POW! A "poped core".. Not good and not good for the core seat die.

I've mentioned this before.. It takes time for a new guy to "gather" up core seat punches of roughly .0005 steps but one can "fit the final bullet weight to the punch(s)" they have...

Optimumly say a guy wants 66gr bullets on a .790 jacket bullet.. But the core seat punches on hand yield a scrape on interior of jacket bef the core is seated OR the punch is just to small and allows too much bleed by...

Experiment with a few varing weight cores to either increase the final bullet weight to heighten the core so the punch that is too big @ 66gr will now seat perfectly at say 66.3 or 66.5..etc. The opposite is go a few tenth's below 66gr to get the smaller punch to seat perfectly.

Over time you'll collect lotta core seat punches. Or you'll stick with a narrow range of bullet weight/one jacket length and a lotta same lot of jackets.. Still 3 - 5 core seat punches will more than likely be in order to make Benchrest bullets.


cale

 

[P.Ericson]

How long time does it take to make a 1000 bullets?

 

[Stephen Perry]

Good Post Cale

You explain core selection and increasing core weight to match a slightly undersized punch very well. I think newer bullet makers can understand your words very well. Most that are following this BR Bullet Making Thread understand that core seating is one the most important steps in making BR bullets and extra care needs to be taken to get it right.

I'm starting to make bullets today for next weekends Shoot at Visalia. I've pullled my wire, cleaned my pulls, and now cutting cores. Later I will start core making. Like I said I break up bullet making into several days. Tommorrow I will clean cores and core seat. Probably point the bullets Monday.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR

 

[Gerry]

Br Bullet making

Good post Cale'

There is just at iny hint around the edge of my cores seated jacket.
I doubt more the a few .0001 on each side.
Maybe i just got lucky on that first punch Bob Simonson made for me.
He did ask for at least 20 jackets and asked what weight bullet i wanted to make. I told him three weights and he ground the punches to match.
How long to make 1,000 bullets, P ERICKSON
I guess that depends on how much time you want to put into them and how close you want to make them in weight. I keep mine to 1/10 th of a grain. It takes me a little longer then most people due to this bad back.
I can't sit as long as most people. It Takes me about a week sold 40 + hrs for 5,000 so i guess it would be in the 10 hr range if your making just 1,000
I know your going to think what the numbers don't match . It's the set up time involved.
Lets go thru it one more time This is if you make your own cores.
1 step cut wire off spools into desired lengths.
roll wire on table with a piece of wood usually 1x usualy
Not that the wires straight you can cut cores
2 set up core weight to desired weight leaving enough for bleed off.
i usually beed off abot 8/10th of a grain. Run your cores.
Place them on a tray a top from a jacket bucket will work or other containers.
Usually about 4.5 pounds of wire is used some more or less.
cores are done.
YOU can etch cores if you like. white vinegar works well.
Now the cores are ready.
Place the desired amout of lube on a piece of wax paper and tumble in a rock tumbler or other type . some just tumble them in a clean towel.
Now the cores are lubed.
Stage 3 Seat cores in jackets as described in this post.
I usauly place it on the punch and push down a tad to firm it against the punch. Push handle up and seat core.
pull down and eject seated jacket Place jacket on a tray or in a bucket .
When you have enough its time for pointing Lube cored jacket lightly. carbide dies don't need as much so easy does it. Steel dies need more.
You will get a feel for the point up and the amount of lube needed.
4 Point up bullets.
you can wash them if you prefer i do others dont.
The total time if you move along will be anywhere from 8 to 10 hrs
I takes me at least that much time Yours may be shorter. It depends on how things are laied out ahead of time. a second operator helps a lot.
You can do one operation per day or go on to finish some each day.
One thing good bullets take time so i don't rush. I have 3 presse set to make it easy. Once they are set thats it.
1.000 bullets + 4,000 levers

 

[P.Ericson]

Thank you Garry for your answer,
Amazing that some people do it as a living, and still gets food on the table

Is 8-10h as fast as possible while maintaining BR quality? Or could it be done faster if you were more efficient? If you were to optimize your production, would it still take 8-10h per 1000?

Regards,
Peter

 

[Gerry]

Br Bullet making

Peter if you have a little help and a different set up for a comercial venture like bart etc. you could make a living.
On that scale you would be buying a million jackets and getting a discount.
Same on the lead.
Pointing up. goes pretty fast , or slow as you like.
As i said it takes me longer then most people
On the pointing operation i take a nice easy pace,
The ogives are really close.
On one of my posts i explained my own Observations.
it pretty simple
Unuform core weight+ unifrom core seating = uniform points
thats what works for me The cores are with in 1/10 gr
The jackets are usually on weight.
When you start the first thing you check is the jacket weight
you adjust your core weight to your finished bullet weight

 

[geo.ulrich]

Peter, its all according to what your pain level is.if you cut cores by hand around 1000-1400 per hour isn't much of a problem.lube another 10 mins. squirt cores 1200-1400 per hour isn't bad.wash cores 20 mins. load boards 10 mins. per 1000. core seat 1500 per hour. relube 10 mins. load boards 10 mins. per 1000. point up 1200 per hour. if you buy cores already to size then just lube jackets 10 mins. load boards 10 mins core seat, 1200-1400 per hour.clean and relube 10 mins. load boards 10 mins. per 1000,point up 1200per . i can easily core seat 5000 per day and point 5000 the next day this is 5-6 hr. day. george

 

[P.Ericson]

Many thanks for the aswers. I think I have a fairly good picture of the time involved now.

 

[Al Nyhus]

Cleaning cores:

While watching The Food Network one day...okay, okay...I was actually watching Giada DeLaurentis vigorously chopping something , I noticed a slick little gadget she was using and thought it might work for final core cleaning. I snagged one at a local kitchen supply store.

It's a pivoting colander gizwhizzy that opens like those greasy Bloomin' Onions from The Outback Steak House.

Best of all, it's got these three standoffs, so the cores are suspended in the cleaning material rather than being on the bottom of the pot. I don't know if this makes any difference or not, but it makes me feel better to not have the bottom layer of cores against a significantly hotter surface than the temp of the cleaning solution.

Load a bunch of cores into the colander, drop it in the pot, flip the sides out, spread the cores around and put the heat to it. The little black pull handle is used to lift it out of the solution after they've perked long enough.
Here's what it looks like inside the cookpot. I got this old stainless cookpot from a hobo living in a van down by the river...traded him a six pack of Colt 45 malt liquor and a quart of MD 20-20 wine for it.

Best of all, it's 'Giada Approved'..........

 

[Dan H]

Stephen, I agree with you on the bleed-by. There's no upside to fitting the core seating punch so tightly to the jacket i.d. that it doesn't allow for some bleed-by. In that scenario, there's a good chance of dinging up the inside of the jacket and/or some air getting trapped under the base of the core. I don't think 'trapped air' cores are neccesary going to shoot loose, but with some air between the bottom of the core and the floor of the jacket.....I imagine the base concentricity relative to the perpendicular axis of the shank is going to out there in the next zip code.

I know what I like to see for bleed-by with my setup, but that's just with my junk. This may not directly cross over to the next guy with a high end Ulrich or Neimi setup.

Like George Ulrich posted earlier, there are a lot of wives tales and voodoo myth out there about bullet making. Some is fact and some isn't. I'd sure never tell anyone what they're doing right or wrong. The proof is on the target, no matter how you arrive there.

Heck, I made some bullets with oiled cores ...just to see how bad they grouped. They all dumped into a nice hole. Go figger......

Thanks for the nice comments on the pics and for your suggestions early on in my efforts. I've been making bullets for three seasons now and continue to find it a fascinating effort.

Good shootin'. -Al

Al, great post as well as pictures, like someone said, a picture is worth a thousand words, I'm so glad you jump in here, lots of good info by a lot of bullet makers. I was talking to a buddy of mine today and he too has tried lubed cores with like results, he also said that after he cleans them he squirts them with lighter fluid. I know what his bullets do for him, he is more often then not up near the top of the heap at the end of the day. I got a chance to look into one of his seated cores with one of those thingies that the Dr. usees to check out the tight spot on us, and there was just the slightest amount of bleed-by very interesting to see in person.
Thanks again to all the bullet makers, a copy of this thread will be on my table when I start the process.
I have to say that this thread has been an all time favorate for me, in the 7 years I've been on here, there has been no bitching or pissing contests, all the posters need to pat themselves on the back, way to go. Too often threads get hijacked or side tracked, this one is the best.

Dan Honert

ps. Your last picture was worth ten thousand words, seems like I see that Andrew Zimmerman guy tasting all that weird food.

 

[J. Valentine]

J Valentine
When i speak of pure copper . i'm talking common copper .
Not chemical copper or chemical lead.
I'm sure something else is in there
Have you used any Sierra jackets?
I found them to be very good }at least the batch i had}
They seem to point up easy. I can say though that the J4 jackets i have gotten over the years are really good.

Yes I have used Sierra jackets in 22 , 308 and 6.5 . They seemed to be quite good and made accurate hunting bullets. I have only used J4's in 6mm however for target bullets.
I have used J4's in 308 and corebonded them for hunting also. They worked good.
Also used CH jackets in 144 grain 308 and they shot very well .

The jacket materials that I refered to is what they use in most cases.

 

[J. Valentine]

I measured the i.d. of the core seating die with a pin guage, so that's a known dimenson.

For anyone just starting out with Larry's setup, this is one of the most important recommendations I'd make. Once that dimension is known, the rest of the core seating operation falls nicely into place.

If you don't have a pin guage set, trot the die down to a local machine shop or your favorite 'smith and have them drop a pin in there. Larry is as accomodating a person as you'll ever deal with and I'm sure he'd supply that info if requested.

So what keeps the jacket on the punch? If the jacket expands properly to the walls of the die it should come off the punch and stay in the die.
This is different to what my Corbin and SAS presses do.

 

[Al Nyhus]

So what keeps the jacket on the punch? If the jacket expands properly to the walls of the die it should come off the punch and stay in the die.

The jacket is ejected from the die via the internal die punch.

Here's an exploded view of how everything fits together. From left to right:
-Punch holder with core seating punch installed
-Jacket with core inside
-Core seating die
-Internal die punch
-Ejector pin

Another 'less exploded' view:

Virgin jacket on the left, jacket with core seated on the right.

You can see that the core seating operation starts to form the base of the jacket into it's flat base configuration. The jacket also shortens as this happens and because the jacket o.d. expands out to the walls of the core seating punch. Just like when you neck up a case..the overall length gets shorter.

If you stick your tongue out the side of your mouth just a little, squint your eyes and cock your head 30 degrees to the right...you can just make out the faint shadow on the jacket that indicates where the core stops. The shadow occurs because the jacket above the 'lead line' hasn't expanded as much as the area below.

Not the greatest pics, but hopefully this helps.