geo.ulrich
Member
Dan, last year when i saw ferris he wasn't all that well alzhimers had taken over pretty bad. george
Bullet Making (originally owned by Stephen Perry)
- Thread starter Benchrest Central
- Start date
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Gerry
Guest
Br bullet maing
Sorry if george or you got the wrong impression.
My last post wasn't supposed to be negative.
As the post went on certain people added other aspects to the blog.
One was hardness etc .
There nothing wrong from the stand point of adding information to the bullet making process.
Yes the beginner has learned quite a bit from this post.
But.. Other people are adding more as it goes along.
Some may be beginning others may be at the point to where they would like to advance.
Im sure George can make good dies. No ofence to you george",
Sorry about Farris . I have one of his dies also.
He was a master craftsmen. Recently some peole are reforming the nose of the bullets. It not new either. I have a die here that Ferris made that
Changes the nose , {puts alittle cone on the end] and will close the point.
It's signed by him. So i guess that's not a new idea either.
Wow how things go round in a circle'
Sorry if george or you got the wrong impression.
My last post wasn't supposed to be negative.
As the post went on certain people added other aspects to the blog.
One was hardness etc .
There nothing wrong from the stand point of adding information to the bullet making process.
Yes the beginner has learned quite a bit from this post.
But.. Other people are adding more as it goes along.
Some may be beginning others may be at the point to where they would like to advance.
Im sure George can make good dies. No ofence to you george",
Sorry about Farris . I have one of his dies also.
He was a master craftsmen. Recently some peole are reforming the nose of the bullets. It not new either. I have a die here that Ferris made that
Changes the nose , {puts alittle cone on the end] and will close the point.
It's signed by him. So i guess that's not a new idea either.
Wow how things go round in a circle'
G
Gerry
Guest
Br Bullet making
I guess i get long winded at times but thinking back.....
We have lost Ray Beihler {man who invented the process}
Ross Sherman Master Die maker
Clarence Detsch master Die maker
Bob Simonson Master Die maker
Rochack Master Die maker.
Homer Culver Master Die maker
These are the one I knew except Ray .
I guess i get long winded at times but thinking back.....
We have lost Ray Beihler {man who invented the process}
Ross Sherman Master Die maker
Clarence Detsch master Die maker
Bob Simonson Master Die maker
Rochack Master Die maker.
Homer Culver Master Die maker
These are the one I knew except Ray .
Lead,lead,lead!
Gerry,
I got the tour of the lead works yesterday,So basic, but on a big scale.Huge cauldron, 800 degrees. Giant slabs of lead go into the cauldron,melt down. The slag comes to the top and is scooped off( like grease from a pot of spaghetti sauce).Then the molten lead is poured into the billet molds and formed into cylinders that weigh about 100lbs each(they are about 8" round and 30" long) They are cooled, extracted from the molds and then moved over to the hydraulic press. The ends of the billets are greased( with what looks like synthetic bearing grease) A huge ram is lowered,the greased billet is placed on top and the lead is run up into to the press.The diameter is reduced and at the top of the press is a selected aperature( .187,.195) and out comes lead wire,hotter than hell from the friction. It goes up and over a spindled wheel and comes down still hot and very supple and is wound by a guy with a leather glove into 36" diameter cardboard drums. Much of this wire goes to Crossman for airgun pellets,where the wire is rolled flat,the pellet is stamped out and the excess lead is shipped back to this facility for re-melting and more wire.
OK, so now,who has been in the J-4 jacket facility and can describe what happens there? Eric Stecker, Inquiring minds want to know .How about a "Jackets 101" type of post ?
Joel
Gerry,
I got the tour of the lead works yesterday,So basic, but on a big scale.Huge cauldron, 800 degrees. Giant slabs of lead go into the cauldron,melt down. The slag comes to the top and is scooped off( like grease from a pot of spaghetti sauce).Then the molten lead is poured into the billet molds and formed into cylinders that weigh about 100lbs each(they are about 8" round and 30" long) They are cooled, extracted from the molds and then moved over to the hydraulic press. The ends of the billets are greased( with what looks like synthetic bearing grease) A huge ram is lowered,the greased billet is placed on top and the lead is run up into to the press.The diameter is reduced and at the top of the press is a selected aperature( .187,.195) and out comes lead wire,hotter than hell from the friction. It goes up and over a spindled wheel and comes down still hot and very supple and is wound by a guy with a leather glove into 36" diameter cardboard drums. Much of this wire goes to Crossman for airgun pellets,where the wire is rolled flat,the pellet is stamped out and the excess lead is shipped back to this facility for re-melting and more wire.
OK, so now,who has been in the J-4 jacket facility and can describe what happens there? Eric Stecker, Inquiring minds want to know .How about a "Jackets 101" type of post ?
Joel
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Gerry
Guest
Br bullet maing
I knew you would like that joel Great operation Nice friendly people
I knew you would like that joel Great operation Nice friendly people
Stephen Perry
New member
Great Posts Guys
I read all the Posts since I went to work this morning. Thanks George, Gerry, Joe, Dan, Joe, and Nader for keeping the Bullet Making Thread going. Dan made a good point. The thread started to help the 1-2 yr bullet maker. We need to be careful to not talk over the heads of the newer bullet maker. Besides that great discussion on core seating. Glad to see George is adding more to the discussion.
I would like to see Eric Stecker join in on this thread. I bought my first jackets and wire from Eric when Berger's was in Phoenix. We shoot together from time to time. Eric has allot of knowledge he could share with us here.
Stephen Perry
Angeles BR
I read all the Posts since I went to work this morning. Thanks George, Gerry, Joe, Dan, Joe, and Nader for keeping the Bullet Making Thread going. Dan made a good point. The thread started to help the 1-2 yr bullet maker. We need to be careful to not talk over the heads of the newer bullet maker. Besides that great discussion on core seating. Glad to see George is adding more to the discussion.
I would like to see Eric Stecker join in on this thread. I bought my first jackets and wire from Eric when Berger's was in Phoenix. We shoot together from time to time. Eric has allot of knowledge he could share with us here.
Stephen Perry
Angeles BR
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J. Valentine
Guest
I can see the benifits of a tapered core swager for jackets that have a lot of taper such as hunting type bullets may have.
I have to taper some by hand between glass plates.
However I agree that a convex shape to the core base is a good idea and helps exclude the air from the center outwards as the core is crushed down.
You want the base of the core to expand progressively from the center of the base up the sides to the top. Theoreticly speaking .
Wether it actually does that I cant tell.
I feel that you want the base of the core to settle on the base of the jacket firmly to exclude as much air as possible . The sides of the core can't be a perfect fit because the air has to escape up the sides of the core.
Also you want some crush to start at the base before the sides start to seal it all off.
I did experiment with some perfect fitting cores once and when I pushed them in by hand they would pop back out . Even though they seemed to seat down ok the bullets showed some flyers .
I decided I did not like the idea and have never gone back. I figured the die makers new what they were doing.
I have not been a friend of any of the big names being thrown around this thread but I have been successfully making my own bullet for 25 years .
While I never sold a bullet in my life but I have plenty of range shooters begging me to make them bullets .
A lot of the accuracy is in the quality of the jacket and good concentric jackets make good bullets.
I have to taper some by hand between glass plates.
However I agree that a convex shape to the core base is a good idea and helps exclude the air from the center outwards as the core is crushed down.
You want the base of the core to expand progressively from the center of the base up the sides to the top. Theoreticly speaking .
Wether it actually does that I cant tell.
I feel that you want the base of the core to settle on the base of the jacket firmly to exclude as much air as possible . The sides of the core can't be a perfect fit because the air has to escape up the sides of the core.
Also you want some crush to start at the base before the sides start to seal it all off.
I did experiment with some perfect fitting cores once and when I pushed them in by hand they would pop back out . Even though they seemed to seat down ok the bullets showed some flyers .
I decided I did not like the idea and have never gone back. I figured the die makers new what they were doing.
I have not been a friend of any of the big names being thrown around this thread but I have been successfully making my own bullet for 25 years .
While I never sold a bullet in my life but I have plenty of range shooters begging me to make them bullets .
A lot of the accuracy is in the quality of the jacket and good concentric jackets make good bullets.
G
Gerry
Guest
Br bullet maing
Good post Valentine.
The taper core observation is the same as mine.
I'll have to taalk to george in this some.
Jackets I'm not ERIC but i know something about them.
Most of it's reading though.
Jacket Material J4 Pure copper.
Sierra Guilding Metal 95% copper 5% zinc.
I have read corbin Jacket making process.
I think thats on his site I believe thats how they are made.
Walt Berger may have some input on this.
Eric Of course
Mr Corbin
I did have a chance to talk to TED SMITH
That was a long time ago , Corbin bought his business
Ted wrote a primer on bullet making.
Maybe someone has it laying around.
It had all of thee basics of bullet making.
The little manual also talked about making Bullet dies.
Good post Valentine.
The taper core observation is the same as mine.
I'll have to taalk to george in this some.
Jackets I'm not ERIC but i know something about them.
Most of it's reading though.
Jacket Material J4 Pure copper.
Sierra Guilding Metal 95% copper 5% zinc.
I have read corbin Jacket making process.
I think thats on his site I believe thats how they are made.
Walt Berger may have some input on this.
Eric Of course
Mr Corbin
I did have a chance to talk to TED SMITH
That was a long time ago , Corbin bought his business
Ted wrote a primer on bullet making.
Maybe someone has it laying around.
It had all of thee basics of bullet making.
The little manual also talked about making Bullet dies.
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Gerry
Guest
Br Bullet making
Lets Talk about WASHING JACKETS'
I Started washing mine a long time ago.
Recently i have stopped doing that and have had Zero problems'
Anyone Else?
Lets Talk about WASHING JACKETS'
I Started washing mine a long time ago.
Recently i have stopped doing that and have had Zero problems'
Anyone Else?
C
caroby
Guest
Hummm Been thinking this too... But.
That's interesting... Myself, I think I have washed my last bucket of jackets.
I wash jackets with the same fluid I clean cores, Lacquer Thinner.
The last several buckets of J4 I've washed. I'll be darned if I could see ANY copper residue or anything come off the jackets. Bottom of the bucket showed no residue I could tell.
BUT... Say'n that my main purpose to pre wash is to eliminate ANY chance of allowing lube or whatever inside the jackets to come in contact with a seated core.
It's an added hassle to wash jackets......... But I probably should keep doing it. Consistent real good bullets not to mention keeping the core and point die free of contaminates should be the another BIG reason to wash.
cale
That's interesting... Myself, I think I have washed my last bucket of jackets.
I wash jackets with the same fluid I clean cores, Lacquer Thinner.
The last several buckets of J4 I've washed. I'll be darned if I could see ANY copper residue or anything come off the jackets. Bottom of the bucket showed no residue I could tell.
BUT... Say'n that my main purpose to pre wash is to eliminate ANY chance of allowing lube or whatever inside the jackets to come in contact with a seated core.
It's an added hassle to wash jackets......... But I probably should keep doing it. Consistent real good bullets not to mention keeping the core and point die free of contaminates should be the another BIG reason to wash.
cale
Talking about Ferris. It would be very nice if the people on here that know him would send him a letter with a picture or two. It would make his day to hear from friends and admirers.
Hovis
G
Gerry
Guest
Br Bullet making
Interesting i'm not alone.
If i had to wash them it wouldn't be in any of those haz materials.
When im finished making bullets i wash them with some dishwashing soap and hot water.
If i had to wash them before seating i would also wash them the same
Way.
Eric told me to wash the jackets. I think it's a waste of time.
From what i see they are nice and shiney clean and ready for the bullet making machine.
Interesting i'm not alone.
If i had to wash them it wouldn't be in any of those haz materials.
When im finished making bullets i wash them with some dishwashing soap and hot water.
If i had to wash them before seating i would also wash them the same
Way.
Eric told me to wash the jackets. I think it's a waste of time.
From what i see they are nice and shiney clean and ready for the bullet making machine.
G
Gerry
Guest
Br Bullet making
Hovis ""
Have an address for ferris?
Post it Please.
I'll drop him a line. he may not remember me but i remember him.
Hovis ""
Have an address for ferris?
Post it Please.
I'll drop him a line. he may not remember me but i remember him.
J
Jim Pickerill
Guest
Mr. Ferris Pindell 4615 S. State Rd. 1 Connersville, IN 47331
I was just over last month to visit him on his 90th. birthday. He is doing as well as can be expected with what he has. Needless to say it isn't getting any better.
JimP
I was just over last month to visit him on his 90th. birthday. He is doing as well as can be expected with what he has. Needless to say it isn't getting any better.
JimP
G
Gerry
Guest
Br bullet maing
Thanks for the latest Address on ferris.
I'll send a card and let him know that some of us remember him and wish him well.
Thanks for the latest Address on ferris.
I'll send a card and let him know that some of us remember him and wish him well.
J
J. Valentine
Guest
I am a fan of washing jackets even if they look perfectly clean and shiny.
It is too hard to tell if any drawing lubricants are still present.
So it's just easier to wash them clean.
The best stuff I have found is a bathroom cleaner called CLR it is Sulphamic Acid based. I mix it about 50 -50 in warm to hot water and agitate the jackets in it for about 30 seconds. It removes all the tarnish and any lube residue that may be there. You think your new jackets are perfectly clean until you use this stuff and then you see the difference.
Then I rinse them twice in clean hot water and dry with a hair dryer.
If I am making bullets to store for a long while then I also rinse in a solution of baking soda just before the final rinse to make sure any slight residual acidity is neutralised.
For shooting straight away within a few months or so I don't bother .
Medical instrament cleaner works ok also.
Eric advised to wash jackets because he knows that sometimes they can have residual drawing lubricants inside them. Wether that effects accuracy I don't know .
I would doubt that J4 jackets are pure copper . I feel that they would also be made from guilding metal or something very close to it.
I have the Ted Smith Bullet Swage Manual . It is very basic stuff and does have some insights into making dies but the tolerances he talks about would be hard for amatures to achieve.
He talks about .0003 match between core seater and point former that is hard to achieve with accuracy for the home die maker.
I think .001 die match is a more likely result and in my experience works fine.
The later Corbin books cover all the same issues also.
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J. Valentine
Guest
Thinners is no good for cleaning jackets as it will only degrease the jacket to some degree but not strip the tarnish . It is also a bit greasy itself and leaves a slight residue on the surface .
Using a dilute acid wash is much better as a water rinse will combine with any acid and wash it away leaving a squeeky clean surface . The water can evaporate leaving no residue .
For washing cores to remove swage lube Thinners does a reasonable job of degreasing but still leaves some slight residue on evaporation.
Shellite (lighter fluid) is way better. It degreases well and evaporates quickly leaving little or no residue and it is nicer to use than thinners.
I have tried every solvent know to man and Shellite is the one I settled on.
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J. Valentine
Guest
Once a bullet is made washing it again is of little importance.
If you want to remove any excess swaging lube then just towl them off in a big piece of clean cloth.
The only time you really need to wash a new made bullet is to apply a coating like Moly or TD . Then soap would not be the best way.
Once a bullet is made I try to avoid immersing that bullet in any liquid that may seep in between the jacket and the core and take a long time to dry out.
If coating the bullets you have no choice but to wash them but I don't like it.
Stephen Perry
New member
Wash or No Wash and Pointing-up Bullets
To be honest guys I don't wash jackets. Eric told me they wash their jackets before they put them in the buckets at Bergers. If I was going to wash jackets I probably use white vinegar diluted with water. I would place the jackets in the vinegar/water 10 minutes. Then I would place the jackets in my collander and flush with water for 5 minutes. Then lay them out on a towel and let them dry.
Ok now that we have the cores seated lets finish the bullets. I set up my point-up die to close the ogive hole small enough so that my ejector can not enter the hole. Pointing-up my bullets is my favorite step for 2 reasons. First I get to see the finished bullets and second pointing-up goes fast, 500 bullets in an hour is possible in pointing-up. For lube I use a mix of 3 parts anhydrous lanolin 1 part vaseline. I leave the lube on the bullets after pointing them.
Finally measure your bullets. I make 2 measurements on 6mm bullets one on the shank just ahead of the pressure ring. My shank measures .2430. The other measurement is on the pressure ring. My pressure ring measurement is .2433. If you do things right each time you make bullets you should be able to repeat your mesurements time after time.
That's it folks we started out to make BR bullets and we finished them. I know you guys have your way of pointing bullets. Please share them with the newer bullet makers. Thanks to all the Posters for sharing their time and knowledge in making bullets with the newer bullet makers.
Stephen Perry
Angeles BR
To be honest guys I don't wash jackets. Eric told me they wash their jackets before they put them in the buckets at Bergers. If I was going to wash jackets I probably use white vinegar diluted with water. I would place the jackets in the vinegar/water 10 minutes. Then I would place the jackets in my collander and flush with water for 5 minutes. Then lay them out on a towel and let them dry.
Ok now that we have the cores seated lets finish the bullets. I set up my point-up die to close the ogive hole small enough so that my ejector can not enter the hole. Pointing-up my bullets is my favorite step for 2 reasons. First I get to see the finished bullets and second pointing-up goes fast, 500 bullets in an hour is possible in pointing-up. For lube I use a mix of 3 parts anhydrous lanolin 1 part vaseline. I leave the lube on the bullets after pointing them.
Finally measure your bullets. I make 2 measurements on 6mm bullets one on the shank just ahead of the pressure ring. My shank measures .2430. The other measurement is on the pressure ring. My pressure ring measurement is .2433. If you do things right each time you make bullets you should be able to repeat your mesurements time after time.
That's it folks we started out to make BR bullets and we finished them. I know you guys have your way of pointing bullets. Please share them with the newer bullet makers. Thanks to all the Posters for sharing their time and knowledge in making bullets with the newer bullet makers.
Stephen Perry
Angeles BR
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caroby
Guest
Thinners is no good for cleaning jackets as it will only degrease the jacket to some degree but not strip the tarnish . It is also a bit greasy itself and leaves a slight residue on the surface .
Using a dilute acid wash is much better as a water rinse will combine with any acid and wash it away leaving a squeeky clean surface . The water can evaporate leaving no residue .
For washing cores to remove swage lube Thinners does a reasonable job of degreasing but still leaves some slight residue on evaporation.
Shellite (lighter fluid) is way better. It degreases well and evaporates quickly leaving little or no residue and it is nicer to use than thinners.
I have tried every solvent know to man and Shellite is the one I settled on.
Thanks for the input Mr. Valentine... Will give it some thought.
Just wondered...? If one is to use water to rinse... I'd believe using R.O. Reverse Osmosis water is the only way. Leaving lime (hard water) (from tap or filtered only water) deposits behind on the jackets is gonna do damage to the core and point dies...
One thing for sure......... Many can see that there IS NOT just one way to make bullets............ Best thing a new bullet maker can do is to work with a seasoned veteran that KNOW Benchrest caliber bullets. Just the same as one wanting to shoot competitively... A Solid mentor is MOST important.
Learn one way then in time try some new things...
Tip... Buy as much of one lot of jackets/per caliber & jacket length as you can afford... If too you are setteled on one weight and have a "match" as far as core seat punch to jacket lot and bullet weight... Then you are golden... Well, till you have to buy another lot of jackets...
To Stephen and all.... Just curious to how many core seat punches you have on hand for say.... making 68gr bullets off a .825 long jacket... Myself I have right around 7 punches at .0004-.0005 increments for each weight 6mm .790 62gr / 65gr / 66gr......... 6 punches 6mm .825 66gr / 67gr / 68gr... Then around 10 punches for my .224 bullets .705 / .740 jackets... Buncha punches..! Way it is for the bullet maker... Still will need more punches in the future... I'm sure.
cale