3X9 and accuracy

[sicero]

Matt-Original Poster -- Just turn your scope down to 3 X and shoot a couple groups and then turn it back up to 9 X and shoot a couple groups and you will see how utterly ridiculous some of these posts are for us commoners. Some of the posts are like saying some pole vaulter can clear more than 18 feet therefor you should be able to at least get close to that. Don't try this at home. I think Joe P wasn't serious about the fly but some of these guys really are about thier drivel. Or they didn't read or understand your question. Varmint guy. I don't always agree with you but this being an easy question you are the voice of reason. Keep posting guys, Hovis finds this funny. Kenny

 

[David Valdina]

Eyes play a part in this too

I agree more power helps a lot. And I will add that a young person with very good eyes can probably do better with a scope of any power than an old person with poor eyes with the same scope. And, the youngster with a 9x scope will probably do better than I will with a more powerful scope. So, in this 6 pages of posts, not all of our experiences are the same as our eyes are different. One more thought, I have shot a little rimfire benchrest with iron sights. Given the right size insert and matching it to the right size bullseye, so that a very small trace of white shows around the black bullseye when centered, I have shot groups about as good as I can with a scope.

 

[alinwa]

"Or, MAYBE you have seen a BR Match won with a 12 power scope?"

Well, yeahh...... EVERY HBR Match is won with a 6-power scope. And HBR guys shoot small groups if they need to too.

al

 

[DR4NRA]

original question

Just curious, how accurately can you shoot an accurate rifle and load with a 3X9 scope? I seem to need singnificantly more power to really test loads etc..

To VG and all the others, I seemed to have answered this question better than all this other BS. It seems to me that if you can mount an 8X Unertl on a 50 BMG and hit a man at 1.42 miles which is only a 12" kill zone with 1 shot, and with a homemade mount, and sitting on your butt instead of a concrete bench, then my guess is that with the right person behind the scope it is Extremely accurate, and by the way a Browning 50 BMG on single fire, with military ball ammo would not be considered the most accurate firearm and load in the world now would it.

Have put up a pic of the BMG and mount.

So my contention is still it does not matter how much scope ya got, its how good you are at using what you have.

 

[HovisKM]

"Or, MAYBE you have seen a BR Match won with a 12 power scope?"

Well, yeahh...... EVERY HBR Match is won with a 6-power scope. And HBR guys shoot small groups if they need to too.

al

Rhetoric at best al.... Every HBR Match is won with a 6x scope is true but the rest of the story is.....they have to....that's the max they can use by the rules. If that rule didn't exist, there WOULDN'T BE A HBR MATCH WON WITH A 6X SCOPE. Why, cause no one would use them....DUH

Hovis

 

[tylerw02]

Joe P.: Thanks!

Tylerw02: So are YOU saying that while shooting a particular Rifle with the scope set on 25 power a Rifleman should not expect his accuracy to be better than when the scope on that Rifle is set at 8.5 power?
IF you are saying that then you are simply wrong!
And suffering under a very hard to rationalize delusion!
I currently have 3 Leupold scopes of the 8.5x25 power range type on VERY accurate Rifles I own!
I have tested them all for point of impact shifting tendencies when the power selector ring is changed from high to low and from low to high. The sighting verification shots are always more accurate (closer to my intended point of impact!) when shot at 25 power than when shot at 8.5 power!
I have done the same thing with my 6x24 variable scopes, my 6.5x20 variable Leupolds and Nikons and with my 6x18's, with my 5.5x16.5's, with my 4.5x14's, with my 4x12's, with my 3.5x10's and EVEN my 3x9's shoot "better" at the highest power!
I have been doing the above exercise for many decades now and seldom if ever is my contention proven wrong and then its just a "temporary" fluke.
Nice group there with the 308, by the way!
DON'T make sweeping contentions though, based on the results of ONE excellent 3 shot grouping from a particular Rifle! Over the long run you would see and observe a slight accuracy edge when that Rifle is shot at 15 power as opposed to when it is shot at 12 power!
I have never seen a BR match won with a 12 power scope!
Better accuracy is obtained with more scope power - often times 3 and 4 times that much scope power!

Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

I'm suggesting the capability of the rifle is set regardless of what optic is on it. Its a matter of the capability of a user to shoot the rifle. Optics will not make a rifle more accurate or less accurate. Maybe YOU can shoot your rifle more accurately with a 8.5-25x cranked up all the way, but that doesn't make the gun any more accurate. As long as you have enough magnification to hold POA the same every time, and the ability to hold there, there will be no change in accuracy by adding more magnification.

When selecting an optic, I look at what the rifle is going to be used for. For example, in a big-game hunting situation through thick timber at short ranges, I guarantee you'll have better shot placement at 3x than at 9x (or 25x for that matter). The hunter will be more accurate with 3x. However, on prairie poodles, you'll certainly kill more of them at 20x than you will at 3x as you won't be able to see them with only 3x.

 

[VarmintGuy]

Tylerw02: You are avoiding the issue to the point of ridiculousness!
I have never said a higher power scope will make a Rifle more accurate!
I AM saying that with more scope power on a given Rifle the resulting accuracy realized by the shooter DOES indeed, improve!
Do YOU disagree with that contention of mine?
If so please explain WHY then, that the BR types do not use 3x9 scopes on their BR Rifles - instead of the 45+ power scopes they all DO use!
I have 3 Rifles with 36 power BR scopes on them today - I would bet my house on the fact that if I put a 3x9 scope on any of them that I could not attain the same level of accuracy prior to the lowered powered scope being used!
And again, I am sure even Gunnery Sergeant Carlos Hathcock would have shot "even better" with more scope power on his Rifles!
He was issued an 8 power scope and used it to very commendable ends - but he most certainly could have been more accurate - thus more efficient - with a higher powered scope!
Hmmm..... I wonder what todays American Forces snipers have for scopes on their Rifles?
Your point about "holding point of aim" is a valid one - you have just interjected an invalid caveat to go along with it!
A shooter can "hold point of aim" more ACCURATELY (precisely!) with a higher power scope than with a lower powered scope - PERIOD!
I know, I have been shooting scoped Rifles for more than 50 years now!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

 

[Paul Fielder]

Just a question....PLEASE be kind...

I have not ever shot in competition but have had 4 full blown BR rigs. 1 sporter and one heavy by Borden and 2 sporters by Hammonds. All shot stupid small groups but I never did the time thing or shot next to someone under stressful comepetive conditions. I just watched the flags & relaxed and shot some good groups & then ranted and raved about the 4 in 1 out deal. Sold them all once I started hunting again as too many hobbies / time & $$$$

Anyway, My questions is How would the aggs do / compare in the BR arena With everyone shooting 6x vs. the 36x-55x scopes (group not score)?? Do you think the aggs would be the same across the board with the top shooters falling in the same place?? I would think some would be like me who can't seem to grasp holding in the same spot w/ lower magnification & guessing groups would grow. I don't know for sure how I would do is all of my br scopes were 36x-55x.

Here is my best group to date witnessed by my old shooting amigo. I had great conditions and was shooting as fast as I could when the fly landed. "Hey doc, I got 4 shots in there but look at the target." He said to go for it.....dead fly. Of course the conditions went nuts & It took 5 shots on the sighters with a final semi confident +/-1/2" hold off in the complete opposite area to get my 5th shot in the group. You would have thought I won the lottery. This is my one and only screamer.

Honestly, I do not think this would have happened with a 6x & my eyes.

pf
<><

 

[cntryboy1289]

Lol

Varmint Guy, your first post said when you put on the more powerful scope, your rifles always shoot better groups. Those were your words and what started off the direction the post took on.

I can sum this up real quickly for you, a higher power scope doesn't make the rifle shoot better, the rifle can only shoot as good as it can right from the smith or manufacturer and that is the contention of myself and several others here. Just adding the higher powered scope is no guarantee that it will shoot better. A good rifleman with a good 3x9 on an accurate rifle can out shoot a lot of folks using higher powered scopes on their own rifles but you and others are having a hard time excepting this fact as we have stated it.

Your contention that with a good shooting rifle that You can shoot better groups with higher powered scoped is valid and I have never argued that with You. You might think about what I and others have said rather than try to blast someone for an idea different than your own!

 

[tylerw02]

I AM saying that with more scope power on a given Rifle the resulting accuracy realized by the shooter DOES indeed, improve!

Not necessarily. I can put a 3-9x, 3.5-10x, 6-18x, or 8.5-25x scope on my .204 Ruger and my groups average about the same with any of them. Actually, the 6-18x grouped better than did the last 8.5-25x that was on it, but the 8.5-25x was a lower quality scope.

Say you may be correct in saying SOME people may be able to shoot better groups with a greater power optic, but to say its a rule, you are stretching the truth.

 

[tylerw02]

Yes you can improve the accuracy of a Rifle/loading by "tuning" the target style, type and size with the lower powered scopes...

Its a natural progression - the more power the better a particular Rifle/loading will shoot - accuracy wise.

By the way varmintguy, this is what you said. You said accuracy would be better with a larger power.

 

[DR4NRA]

Modern sniper weapon

Ok VG here ya go the current specs on the USMC, And Army standard sniper rifle


USMC M40A3


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Caliber 7.62x51mm NATO (.308 Win)
Length 44.25" (1124mm)
Weight 16.5 lbs (7.5 kg)
Barrel Schneider Match Grade SS #7
Barrel Length 24 inches (610mm)
Trigger Weight 3 to 5 pounds
Magazine Capacity 5 rounds
Sight Unertl 10x with Mil-Dots and BDC
Stock McMillan Tactical A4
Max Effective Range 1000 yards (915 meters)

Still a unertl, and still not any 36X or Variable. Pic of it attached

Countryboy, well stated sir well stated

 

[HovisKM]

The Unertl's are being fazed out. Their getting old. You'll find S&B's, Nightforce and Leupold's on most of them now. The last nightforce I seen was a 5-15 power(close).

The original poster was talking about higher power scopes making it easier to find the accuracy potential of a rifle. And the answer is Yes. It has nothing to do with making a rifle more accurate, what is on a HBR, what snipers use or High Power.

The thread starter asked (and even gave his own opinion) in the opening post and then tried to clarify that post later with a hypothetical gun.

Hovis

 

[jaybic]

I am stilll trying to figure out how to get an answer from the "bigger it not better" crowd on why the best shooters in the world using the most accurate rifles in the world dont use 3x9 scopes to compete with.

If a 3x9 scope is much cheaper that the same brand/quality 36x scope and will shoot on the same rifle/load/shooter...everything the same...situation, why do the best bench shooters not save the money and use the 3x9?

Enlighten me, Please. Better yet, take this belief over to the CENTERFIRE BENCHREST forum and ask them to give up those big scopes because apparently, they hold no advantage over the smaller ones. UHuh!

BTW, sniper scopes are not big power because sometimes targets are engaged at such distances that field of view is also a very important consideration. It is not an apples to apples deal. The 36x benchrest scople is not a wise choice for a sniper rifle. At least not until someone makes a 3x65x scope.

How do you aim small..miss small if you cant see small?

Jamie

 

[cntryboy1289]

Lol

Jaybic, I think you are misunderstanding our case. I nor anyone else has said that a larger scope doesn't lend itself to good accuracy. Only that a larger scope doesn't guarantee it.

I think a lot of folks are misunderstanding the fact that I and a few others have said that a good rifleman with a 3x9 scope can shoot a rifle as good as it can be shot. Can that be because some of you cannot do so and need the larger powered scopes to be able to shoot as well????? I never said that using a larger scope is not a good idea nor that you shouldn't use one.

DR4NRA, thank you sir!

 

[Paul Fielder]

I think we have it covered this...

Anyway, My questions is How would the aggs do / compare in the BR arena With everyone shooting 6x vs. the 36x-55x scopes (group not score)?? Do you think the aggs would be the same across the board with the top shooters falling in the same place?? I would think some would be like me who can't seem to grasp holding in the same spot w/ lower magnification & guessing groups would grow. I don't know for sure how I would do as all of my br scopes were 36x-55x.

...and are beating a dead horse or the guys on centerfire would be using lower power.

I would just like to know (for grins) how Jackie's groups would grow if he shot a 6x compared to his 45x in comp. with the same gun of known agg. capability.

Not wanting a debate....just a guess to what would happen on the score sheets if everyone at the Super Shoot went to 6x.

Any thoughts??

pf
<><

 

[jaybic]

Well, I guess I may be misunderstanding but if not, I was under the impression that the OP was using the same shooter, rifle and load with his 3x9 scope and wondered if his groups might not get smaller with bigger glass. Do we agree that this is paraphrasing his initial question?

While I am sure that it will not guarantee anything, I am just putting forth that if he were to put bigger glass on the same rifle with the same guy behind it and the same load on the same day and shot say, 10 5 shot groups with each scope, one 3x9(or whatever and one much larger(say 8x32) at the same wind free tunnel in Texas that its my guess that his group size would perhaps go down in size ceteris paribus.

Does it make his rifle more accurate? No, if that were the case every time some one shot out a barrel they would just bolt on a bigger scope and those one hole groups would just magically reappear.

To play a bit of devils advocate, I also believe one could shoot better groups with a real high quality 3x9(Leupy, Zeiss, Swarovski...ect...ect than one could with a 69.00 25x piece of junk from Cheaper that Dirt.

Maybe distance needs to be factored in. Maybe at 100/200 yards the power thing is not such an issue but what about at 1000 yards? The Op never mentioned distance or I might have missed it too.

Anyway, All I know is that in load testing my 5 different coyote rifles, I put on a VX2 in 6x18, do my testing, find a load the gun likes, then switch scopes to my 3x9 VX2s for hunting situations(trying to find a running coyote in a 6x18 scope turned all the way up at 50 yards is an exercise in futility most days) and they just dont shoot quite as well because I cant see as well.

Anyway, I am no expert by any means but thats what my humbling years of experience has shown me.

Jamie

 

[Paul Fielder]

Sorry...

Well, I guess I may be misunderstanding but if not, I was under the impression that the OP was using the same shooter, rifle and load with his 3x9 scope and wondered if his groups might not get smaller with bigger glass. Do we agree that this is paraphrasing his initial question?

While I am sure that it will not guarantee anything, I am just putting forth that if he were to put bigger glass on the same rifle with the same guy behind it and the same load on the same day and shot say, 10 5 shot groups with each scope, one 3x9(or whatever and one much larger(say 8x32) at the same wind free tunnel in Texas that its my guess that his group size would perhaps go down in size ceteris paribus.

Does it make his rifle more accurate? No, if that were the case every time some one shot out a barrel they would just bolt on a bigger scope and those one hole groups would just magically reappear.

To play a bit of devils advocate, I also believe one could shoot better groups with a real high quality 3x9(Leupy, Zeiss, Swarovski...ect...ect than one could with a 69.00 25x piece of junk from Cheaper that Dirt.

Maybe distance needs to be factored in. Maybe at 100/200 yards the power thing is not such an issue but what about at 1000 yards? The Op never mentioned distance or I might have missed it too.

Anyway, All I know is that in load testing my 5 different coyote rifles, I put on a VX2 in 6x18, do my testing, find a load the gun likes, then switch scopes to my 3x9 VX2s for hunting situations(trying to find a running coyote in a 6x18 scope turned all the way up at 50 yards is an exercise in futility most days) and they just dont shoot quite as well because I cant see as well.

Anyway, I am no expert by any means but thats what my humbling years of experience has shown me.

Jamie

I didn't mean to hijack and agree with you. Maybe I should have started a new thread??

I do the same thing you do but with a trusted 18x40 Premier, then put on the hunting glass. Groups are comparable but always tighter with the extra power only because I'm guessing I can pick up the fine movement and shot location w/ the fine cross hair and smaller bull. I only do this with my finer hunting & varmint rigs.

I do have the 700/6br by Bryant I could do some playing with....it is on the heels of my old br guns. I just never shot anything under 36x on my true paper guns & it's wearing the premier right now.

I was just curious.

pf
<><

 

[cntryboy1289]

Jaybic, you understood his question the same as I did. Just putting on a higher powered scope does not guarantee better groups though! I, yourself and many others usually find it to be true, but higher power is no guarantee of anything.

Should it equate to better groups, yes, but there is no guarantee because for all anyone knows, the accuracy that was attained with the 3x9 may be all the accuracy the gun can offer. I know there are some folks that think this is ludicrous, but some guys can hold POA the same using good 3x9 scopes, maybe not everyone for sure, but some can. There is also no guarantee that a guy can hold the rifle steady enough to be able to shoot with the higher powered scope as we all know the smaller the field of view is, the more mistakes can and will occur, otherwise, we would all be winning trophies each shoot.

 

[tylerw02]

Jeff, you've got it figured pretty well. Guys can and do hold as good a POA with a 3-9x as they do with 20x. Look at some of those Palma rigs and the groups they get with irons at 1k.