3X9 and accuracy

Thank you Tyler! The only problem the others have is they are only part right and they think because their rig can shoot better groups with the higher powered scopes that it must be true for everyone else.

I have no doubt that they are all good riflemen, but in the hands of someone else, that exact same rifle may not be as accurate as well as in the hands of someone else, that same rifle may be capable of so much more than they will ever achieve, with or without the higher powered scope!

Let's get back to shootin'!
 
DR4NRA said:
Carlos Hathcock USMC sniper, 93 confirmered 1 shot kills, over 300 unconfirmered, and a 1 shot kill at 2500 yards confirmed and still stands today with an 8X Unertl mounted on a 50BMG, all others done with the same unertl and a Winchester Mod. 70 in 30.06. Yep its all about how much scope power ya have, not the skill of the man or woman behind it.
Click to expand...


You might want to read the article in the August '07 RIFLEMAN where Jim Land mentioned that Hathcock's M70 "would hold about 2 MOA".

Good shooting!
 
Just shows how good of a rifleman he really was and the lack of anything better being available at the time for the conditions!
 
Wapiti: Just returned from an interesting web site that delineates the various "Long Range Rifle Systems" ISSUED to todays armed forces for use in battle today!
The first "system" I looked at was scoped with a Nightforce NXS variable power optic of 5x22 power, with Mil-dot reticle!
Now you may be suffering from some delusion regarding a scopes power in relation to accuracy - but the armed forces are not!
They KNOW that accuracy is enhanced with more scope power.
And again I am quite sure that Gunnery Sergeant Carlos Hathcock would MUCH rather have had access and use of a 22 top end power scope than his 8 power issued model!
Or, do you disagree with that?
Even the standard issue M-24 Sniper Rifle is issued with a 10 power scope these days - for some reason NONE of the military's Long Range Rifle System's use 3x9 scopes!
I know what the reason for that is.
Do you?
LOL.:rolleyes:
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy
 
Wapiti I did read that article, and it was a good one. For what he had the man was just amazing. He could do with Iron sights what most people could not do with a 60X scope. A riflemans rifleman. One of the best. And yes the Palma guys are incredible too. They have been taught and learned the basics of good marksmanship hands down.

Jeff you have it nuts on my man. Obviously you have been taught well, and taken the lessons given to heart. Please pass it on.

VG All the scope power in the world will NOT increase accuracy!!! What it does do is allow you to SEE a target at a longer distance, nothing more. If YOU DO NOT have good shooting techniques, and Good basic marksmanship skills from the get go, No amount of scope is going to make a diffrence PERIOD.

But I do see one thing about you that Carlos would have admired, you beat a dead horse to death, cut him up and beat it again with a tenderizer until you get your way. Just like him, no matter how long it takes you will not admit defeat.

So guys, go out spend 1000.00 bucks on a 36X scope, and you will be a pro in no time
 
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I think we've lost sight of the OP's question. "Just curious, how accurately can you shoot an accurate rifle and load with a 3X9 scope? I seem to need singnificantly more power to really test loads etc.."

My experience has been that switching from a 3-9X40 Nikon to a Clearidge 6-20X40 has made a marked improvement in my groups. Same gun, same ammo, same shooter, same target, same distance, and like conditions. The only change was the detail I'm now able to see at the higher power.

I will agree that a scope doesn't make the rifle, load, etc. more accurate but it does allow me to see what I couldn't see at the lower power. I can more precisely return to my POA which, normally, leads to smaller groups. This in turn allows me to be more accurate.

Unless, I have gas or something the above usually holds true. For me!
 
Sitting duck

That is exactly what I have experienced but be warned, you will meet resistance to that logic.

Jamie
 
OK beating a dead horse....

....let's all agree a rail gun will shoot the same regardless of scope power.


Does anyone have any experience in comparative group size from the same KNOWN agging BR rig with the 'nut behind the butt' and low vs. high power scopes??

I'm sure someone here has done it?? Not trying to start another debate.

If Jackie took his sporter which is KNOWN to shoot .150" with a powerful March or frozen 45x Leupy. Then put on a TRUSTED 6x.....how much would the .150 grow for you if you had to guess or even better if this has been tried??

I'm guessing some are good enough to keep it .150" but I think my groups would jump to .3-.4??

I never tried....anyone??

pf
<><
 
Tell you what just for laughs, try this experiment for me please????? Take your rifle that has a 3x9 or whatever hunting scope you use to the range and see how steady you can hold it and shoot for groups. If you cannot shoot a decent group with it, you might just need a lot more practice instead of a higher powered scope! Who knows though, more scope might be just what you need to be able to shoot the rifle for a decent group. Come back here and post the results though if you please.

One more thing though, if you have thick crosswires, use a larger target to make sure you can see the bull!!
 
I might have missed it reading through this thread, but, with a cheap 3x9, if you shoot a group at 3x then one at 9x you may find that they aren't in the same place on the target.
 
Jeff,

cntryboy1289 said:
Tell you what just for laughs, try this experiment for me please????? Take your rifle that has a 3x9 or whatever hunting scope you use to the range and see how steady you can hold it and shoot for groups. If you cannot shoot a decent group with it, you might just need a lot more practice instead of a higher powered scope! Who knows though, more scope might be just what you need to be able to shoot the rifle for a decent group. Come back here and post the results though if you please.

One more thing though, if you have thick crosswires, use a larger target to make sure you can see the bull!!
Click to expand...

not sure if this was directed at me or not??

I have done this many times with lots of different hunting rigs but never with a br set up....sadly, I do not own one any longer.

Power size didn't matter...if the gun shot 'decent' groups with it @ high magnification it also shot them at lower....just not as decent for me but no critter could tell:) My groups were always a little better with it cranked up. I still liked to slap on the 18x40 premier for load testing then go to the hunting scope for sight in & leave alone.

Only scope I could play with this is my 8x32 nightforce but she sits a top a 7.21 Firebird with rounds costing $5/per bang. Not sure I want to pull it & re-sight in.

My curiosity was strictly for the difference in super accurate BR rigs in 6x 5 shot groups vs. 5 shot 45x. I just assumed some here might have actually tried this.

I also can't get to the *#&$@! range because it won't stop raining!! Need waders to get to the back stop. Anyway, guess I'm done with this thread...getting too heated for some reason.



papapaul,

I don't think the OP was suggesting cheap scopes. I just assumed we were all talking about trusted scopes that hold poi.

pf
<><
 
Maybe it should be a separate thread but I will pose it again.

Why, if the scope power makes no difference and will not shrink your groups, why do the BEST BENCHREST SHOOTERS IN THE WORLD use giant power scopes????????????????????????????????????????

Can anyone answer that question with out going off on a tangent to distract from the obvious?

Take this nonsense to the CFBR forum and I bet those shooters(some of the best in the world as I understand it!) will clear this disagreement right up for us I bet! Or please share your wisdom with all those fools overthere that shoot the tightest groups in the world with big glass or 6x because they HAVE TO by the rules.

Or maybe some folks on the Factory/Hybrid site know more than the CFBR guys do? Makes me think that sometimes people are more interested in winning an arguement than acknowledging facts.

Jamie
 
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VarmintGuy said:
Even the standard issue M-24 Sniper Rifle is issued with a 10 power scope these days - for some reason NONE of the military's Long Range Rifle System's use 3x9 scopes!
Click to expand...

Yeah, because 10x is oh so much bigger than 9x!!!!!!!!!
 
DR4NRA: Interject ALL the caveats your little punkin head can muster up - they still won't change the fact that INDEED a particular Rifle will be MORE accurate with a higher power scope in use compared to the accuracy it attains with lower powered scopes!
The number of caveats you try and interject does not diminish the fact that at 100 yard BR competitions (which is NOT a "longer distance" like you interjected!) the majority of competitors are using scopes way in excess of 30 power these days.
Why, an unbiased mind might ask, the answer IS - because they can attain a higher degree of accuracy with MORE scope power! Yeah, it's really that simple.
Or are YOU saying these BR fellows that do possess the "basics of good marksmanship" (like your caveats have been prefaced with so often!) could do as well with a 3x9 scope on their BR Rifles?
I would certainly be interested in your answer to that specific question!
And IF you do have the gumption to answer that question you would be the posting in relatively rare ground!
REGARDLESS of the quality or proficiency of the shooter - when said shooter is shooting at a target he will over the long run produce accuracy that is better when he uses a scope of higher power on his Rifle!
Period!
Otherwise BR competitors would simply buy the $170.00 scopes in 3x9 power and NOT the $1,000.00+ 45 power scopes that they uniformly DO use these days!
Your overly simplistic contention that more scope power ONLY allows a shooter to see a target at longer ranges is simply incorrect!
There are other things that more scope power enables an accuracy minded shooter to do, AMONG them is the ability to achieve (attain) and maintain a more precise point of aim with more scope power!
Looking forward DR4NRA, to your explanation as to why the BR competitors don't use 3x9 scopes to achieve their extremely high levels of accuracy!!!
He-he!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy
 
Jaybic: Jamie, you of course are exactly right on in your opinion of why some folks will argue DIRECTLY CONTRARY to reality - just to be contrary is my only guess at that one!
And the few "contraries" on this thread ABSOLUTELY refuse to answer or even acknowledge the answer to the simple and direct question you and I have repeatedly asked of them!
Why don't the BR accuracy minded competitors use 3x9 power scopes instead of the 35, 36, 40 and 45 power scopes that they do use?
They are avoiding this question like the plague.
They are avoiding this question to the point of ridiculousness!
And they are throwing in this caveat and that caveat to try avoiding the obvious reality of the question and its answer!
And these "contraries" will (like you so astutely observe and mention!) go off on any number of "tangents" to avoid the obvious!
This repeated "tangental avoidance" is amusing me to the point of my bursting out laughing now when I try to follow their nonsensical diversions!
Don't hold your breath waiting for any of the "contraries" to answer your pertinent question!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy
 
VarmintGuy,
I have a idea. Since you are not getting your answer here,why don't you go to the benchrest forum and ask your question there.:D
 
Varmintguy,

I agree completely. Take this question to the best group shooters in the world. The foremost authority on the subject. The Holy Grail of tight group shooting knowledge...and see what they say.

Will they say "Big scope=small groups" or will the come to their senses and realize that for all the world records they have shattered, they could have done it all with a 3x9 VX2 or Cabelas Pine Ridge model for 299.00 instead of those overboard and excesive frozen 36x Leupolds and the 60x 2000.00 Marches and Nightforce scopes....that there is no advantage in them at all, and for years the entire competitive benchrest community has been wasting money on high end, high magnification optics.

Ask Jackie or any of the other Shooter of the Year level competitors to go to next years Supershoot or a national match with a 3x9 bolted to the top of their most accurate benchgun and see what the tell you. Ask some of the worlds best rifle builders would suggest you put on your rifle to maximize its accuracy potential.

Yes, take this there and then bring back the results and post them.

Maybe I am mistaken. Is it possible that any of the big scope naysayers are?

Jamie
 
DougKennedy: "I" know THE answer!
I have proven this answer to myself many many times in the past 5 decades of shooting from the bench!
I "WANT" the few "contraries" here about's to have to come to the realization that they have no basis what so ever for their misguided opinions!
Now, this next I can not take full credit for, but I was conversing via I-mail with a "lurker" here regarding this subject!
And as we were laughing about the bizzarre notions a few folks here have, he came up with this natural progression of what the "contraries" are contending!
One of his I-mails contained this humorous and yet VERY illustrative observation.
He wanted me to pose this corollary to the contraries and I will do so here if I can keep from laughing til I can't type any more!
"IF", increasing the scope power on a particular Rifle DOES NOT allow for and enhance its ability to shoot more accurately (better groups!) then the opposite must be true!
Then, according to the "contraries" it would enhance the accuracy of said Rifle to use even LESS scope power on a Rifle!
In other words in order for the BR types to achieve the maximum in accuracy from their Rifles they should all use scopes of 1 (one!) power!
The ridiculousness of that natural progression (degression?) in attaining the utmost in accuracy in the minds of the "contraries" is cleverly pointed out in my I-mailing lurker friends example - is it not?
Again I am amused to the max over the strange thinking and inability of some here to understand the blazingly simple and obvious advantages of more scope power aiding in achieving the utmost in accuracy or better accuracy than can be had with lesser powered scopes!
Personally I would be embarassed to ask the serious minded and intense of endeavour type folks over on the straight BR portion of this forum this question - and again its a question I already know the answer to!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy
 
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