What caliber for 600/1000 yard benchrest?

al,

You should be shamed of yourself! Tinypics be damned. It's the floozy that attracted you there, you & your talk of hot loads!

John
 
Alinwa
Maybe I'm missing your point here so I'll ask it a different way.
What is so special about the 6x47L that we would not expect to see from the 243 Lapua brass or new 308 Lapua brass necked down?
From looking at a cartridge diagram I guess I am not seeing whatever it is you think is the perfect concept.
Waterboy
 
al they are being proven{6/47L}.they shoot good a couple of guys in PA are shooting some real good groups with them.lynn I think they just get the right speed not to get blown around as much.
 
6.5 Fan
I think Matt Dienes is shooting a pair of them as are several others? We have guys on the westcoast using them as well and shooting real good such as Barry Bluhm and Bruce Duncan.I am pretty sure most of the guys are using 105's at 3150 fps or the 115 a bit slower.
The 6Dasher guys/gals myself included are running the same bullets at 3050 fps and the 6BR shooters myself included again are getting either 2850 or 2970 fps.
We don't see the 243 out here much but the 6-284 and 6mm-06 guys/myself are getting best accuracy at 3433 fps.
I have personaly been whooped by the 6-284 two times for the small group award at the 600 Yard Nationals by Bert Seltzer(Longshot1) so I know it can shoot very small groups.
I guess I am just missing out on what makes the 6x47L as accurate/competitive out of the box as a 6BR ,6Dasher or even the 6x47 Swiss Match yet the bigger cartridges like the 6-284 or 6mm-06 can't compete with it? I know it isn't just the small primer pocket as everybody out here has a dozen wildcats based on the 308 URBR brass.
Maybe Alinwa will point me in the right direction?
The popularity of the 6BR or Dasher is very easy for someone like myself to understand as even someone such as myself can make it shoot very small groups very easiy.
Waterboy
 
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What i meant by expensive, is simply brass lost while in the field. I have a huge stash of remington and Winchester 22-250 and 243 brass that didnt cost much, if anything. While not the quality of Lapua it really doesnt matter when shooting coyotes at 100-200 yards or closer. Deep snow, or simply having a good time, brass recovery is not at a high percentage. That's all! Lee
 
skeetlee said:
What i meant by expensive, is simply brass lost while in the field. I have a huge stash of remington and Winchester 22-250 and 243 brass that didnt cost much, if anything. While not the quality of Lapua it really doesnt matter when shooting coyotes at 100-200 yards or closer. Deep snow, or simply having a good time, brass recovery is not at a high percentage. That's all! Lee
Click to expand...


Boy I've been having a ball chasing this thread!! I learn something new everyday, and often leave with lots of new thoughts going left to right in my brain. Now I use my 6/250AI as the final solution for the coyote population. Which it does rather well as far as I can shoot. But I also have the new barrel bug (I get this about once a year), and kinda want to go back to shooting 80 to 95 grain bullets. I'm not a fast twist barrel fan, and doubt I ever will be one. So now I'm thinking about doing a 6BRX, or something similar. Then maybe (now just maybe) a barrel chamberd in 6.5x47 or maybe even 7x47. Of course this kinda screws me up as I had my heart set on a new .222 NM barrel with a .242 neck 21" long for a 700 Remington. You guys are going to completely destroy my checking account!!

To touch base on the Remington Winchester brass a second: I've found the Winchester brass just ain't what it used tobe! Bad primer pockets (loose) are common on brand new unfired brass. Out of round necks so bad they wont clean up as well. The Remington seems a little better, but still leaves a lot to be desired. On my .223 dog gun I ended up biting the bullet and buying several hundred Lapua cases just to make life easier at my house. I wish Lapua would make 6mm remington brass as I have a couple barrels begging for good brass (one is a .257AI).

any lets keep this thread running forever as it's a learning experence
gary
 
Lynn said:
Alinwa
Maybe I'm missing your point here so I'll ask it a different way.
What is so special about the 6x47L that we would not expect to see from the 243 Lapua brass or new 308 Lapua brass necked down?
From looking at a cartridge diagram I guess I am not seeing whatever it is you think is the perfect concept.
Waterboy
Click to expand...

These are my OPINIONS, they're not facts. Some will be bothered by the fact that they're "strong" opinions.......... I'm not sure what to make of this idea. If you don't like my opinion, DON'T FRIGGIN' LISSEN!!!!! Do whatever you want.

Ohh Well.

First of all, Lapua .243 is NOT the same as "new 308 Lapua" if you're referring to the new Palma case...

What's so special (IMO) is that it's a larger version of true BR brass, but NOT any better than the new Palma .308 case.... which is also true BR spec. The original URBR brass has a large flashhole and this doesn't work well with the small primer. A small primer just doesn't have enough ooomph, enough priming material to waste. For a small primer to be effective it must have a small release nozzle, a small flashhole. The small flashhole allows the small primer to build heat/pressure and concentrates, directs and channels the (hotter) primer flame deeply into the powder charge. It's kinda like scouring out a paint bucket with a water hose....... you nozzle it down to build pressure and a small, high speed jet. You add heat to make it even more effective. Next time you're cleaning something with a nozzle on a hose, take the nozzle off....... nozzle OFF is like the large flashhole. Nozzle ON and HOT WATER is like the small flashhole.

URBR brass works OK with short cases but my experimentation and that of others it fails with large cases, slow powder...

Next in line is the ability of the case to TAKE pressure...... It is furthermore my OPINION that running higher pressure gives you lower ES. ES is important to me. In simple terms 25fps Extreme Spread equals 5" of vertical at 1000yds..... 5fps = 1 inch of vertical.

Others' opinions may vary...... fine.

Now, given two similar caseheads made of similar material, let's use .243 and 6BR............ how can one handle more pressure than the other????

-Size of primer pocket.
-And size of flashhole.

-Smaller primer leaves more material for support.
-Smaller flashhole meters less gas.

I've spent time with the .243AI. I've spent time with the .308. I can right now go down and screw in a bunch of .243 casehead barrels, a bunch of .308 casehead barrels.... also a bunch of PPC and BR casehead barrels....

I can shoot these over the chronograph and easily document the difference.

YOU or anybody else can go do the same bleedin' thing....

I can make and have made 6BR cases from URBR, 6BR, .308, .243 etc cases from the various mfgrs and TEST which ones shoot faster. This isn't rocket science. But after 25yrs of DOING exactly this I can begin to make predictions based on prior experience. Also it is my belief that slower powders are harder to ignite than faster powders. This may well be a completely misguided belief.... but for the powders I've tried it seems to hold true. I've opened flashholes on PPC's and BR's using fast powder (light bullets) and ignition is fine. ES hasn't been as good for me but this is again, JUST MY FINDING AND OPINION. And ES isn't even a factor with fast powder and light bullets at short range.... "after all, 99% of the short range records were shot using thrown charges" which means ES of 25-50fps!


And BTW the new Palma case is gonna' be awesome. This would explain why I've been trumpeting it's merits ever since I heard of it....not only have I been trumpeting for it, I've been begging for 15yrs for it, and I've got my orders in for cases. I've already got guns built for it.

Lapua gets all this, finally.

But back to the 6X47L brass...... it may BE too big!!! It may turn out to BE just right for 6.5....

OK, so neck it back. The point is that it's a case that gives NOTHING to the 6BR case. It IS a 6BR case, just 1/4" longer. This is what matters. You can do stuff with this brass that you cannot DO with 6BR brass. You can make a Wolf Pup with a neck. You can make HBR cases that will spec instead of requiring their own bastard classification.....You can play with "DAsher" sized cases and have a little more neck to play with.

I don't even LIKE the way others have interpreted the 6X47L, which is if course why I've designed my own. But this doesn't take from the case.

NOW I can play with shortening it if need be. Meantime I'm playing with 3150 velocity.. if I don't like it, if others beat me in competition, I simply moooove the shoulder back like a DAsher. Nothing could be simpler...... But it SHOOTS inch-and-a-half at 600yds. Not luck, it shoots it, right now.

It gives me options I didn't have before..... And the new Palma brass will open a whole WORLD of innovation......


And for all of you'se who want to shoot low and slowwww....... GREAT! I'm not calling you an idiot. Life is full of choices.

Some folks likes pork chops
Some folks likes ham hocks

The 6X47L is MY CHOICE to make....

And FOR ME, using my barrels and my actions and my brass...... the 6X47L shoots as fast as the .243AI with good caselife and the accuracy of a 6BR. One of these days I WILL shove the shoulder back and make a DAsher...... maybe it'll be even better.

Meantime, it's also a bullet thang...

And a barrel thang....

AND, for alla' you'se pissin' and moanin' about my "lack of wood" get a life. I've been raising a family and playing in my backyard. Meantime this 6X47L has taken home wood in every match it's been entered in, against real shooters. Y'all travelin' types can call them "club matches" if you want. I recognize the NASCAR mindset, been around it all my life. But IMO if it's me against Tiger woods or me against Mario Andretti or me against Michael Jordan there don't have to BE any big to-do....... Sure, maybe the "real shooters" are bringing their worn out stuff to this "club match," maybe they're suckin' for the fun of it.... But I like to shoot with them and the 6X47L has done OK. With ME driving it..... and as for y'all telling me that the guys I've been "clubbing with" aren't bringing their A-Game, take that up with THEM.....

al
 
Alinwa
So I guess it was the primer and flashhole and with the new 308 palma brass out now the 243 will make a comeback.
I mentioned the 243 and 308 cases seperately as I thought this was were you wee coming from.
As to the URBR brass and 243 or regular 308 brass I haven't seen the problems you described.The URBR brass should be extremely weak as there is very litte casehead around the primer pockets at all.This is what gives it the larger powder volume.I neck it down to 6BR and the pockets tighten up rather than loosening up and I always figured it was the internal pressure pushing against the very exposed primer pocket where as a normal case would have the pressure pushing straight down.
As to winning matches that is exactly why everybody visits this forum.Club matches generaly have fewer shooters so your chances of winning are greater.It was brought up because a typical Sacramento club match has Don Nielson,Jerry Tierney,Bob Hoppe,Lou Murdica and a host of other good shooters in attendance.
In regards to the post by John he has a brand new Borden action with the loading port opened up specificaly fo the 6x47L cartridge.You won't find him posting much without first testing what he is posting about.He is not one to shoot the bull but rather one that tells you what his results are.
You might look into the 6x47 Swiss Match as well.
Waterboy
 
Lynn,

So you're telling me that in your experience the large primer pocket brass holds up just like small primer pocket brass? Takes the same pressure?

I haven't found this to be true at all.

Just one for instance. I made a shortened 308 round up back in the early 90's..... I pushed the shoulder back on Lapua 308 brass until I reached minimum H2O capacity for HBR. It shoots really well. When the 6.5X47L brass became available I was ready and waiting, it even fires in my old shortened .308 chamber and headspaces perfectly. I can use the old chambers for fireforming. Of course I got reamers and started playing......These are nearly identical cartridges, one built on the 6.5X47L case and the other on regular 308. The new brass gets more velocity easily and lasts forever, no loose primer pockets.

I haven't yet tried URBR brass to see if it works like the 6.5 X47L stuff.

I checked out the Swiss Match several yrs back, didn't find any gain over .243/308 case.

al
 
Sounds like Sam Hall just set a new record with a dasher. It just seems to me like the br cases rather standard or improved simply shoot well!! Like i said above, i didnt have any luck with the 6x47L but that could be due to my lack of experience. I tried and tried to get that rifle to shoot a 115gr bullet but it wouldnt. Maybe an 8 twist instead of a 7.5 would have made a difference along with some 105's or 107's.
I wonder if sam hall, and mike davis are messing with the 6x47L? I know they have played with the parent case 6.5x47L but i dont know about the 6mm version. It would be interesting to know what those fellas think of it. They seem to know whats up and whats not. Does anyone here know if they have played with the 6x47L any? I thought i was done messing with it myself, but maybe i should try it again sometime down the road. Right now i am focusing on ppc and score so it wont be any time soon. It is still very interesting to me though. I just like to shoot!!! Lee
 
Skeetlee
All of the cartridges in this thread shoot extremely well.
The thing nobody seems to mention about the 6BR or its variants is the important role played by recoil.

Many many years ago a big bunch of deer hunters were sighting in there loudenboomers and were sending copious amounts of powder down there barrels trying to hit a steel gong.
Two young kids pulled up on there bicycles an asked if they could shoot at the gong with there $50 22 longrifles and cheap ammo.The deer hunters were laughing out loud telling them if we can't hit it with our fire-breathing superguns your wasting your time but go ahead. Those two kids knelt down and pelted that gong like it was 3 feet away.
It seems there is a threshhold on how much powder you can burn before each shooter looses the ability to agg small.If lightgun had a 35 pound limit I would expect the bigger cases to dominate.
Waterboy
 
Good point Lynn!! I know for me personally i hate recoil! I am a fair sized man with big broad shoulders, but i cant take the beating, nor do i want to. I feel a little like a sissy at times because of my lack of handeling recoil, but thats just the way it is for me. Way to many 12ga rounds, i guess?? I really enjoy shooting the 6ppc but i recently purchased a nice used .100 short 22ppc barrel from a good friend of mine, and i am really excited about shooting it. If this .100 short 22ppc gives me the accuracy i am after (and i think it will) with less recoil, i may not have much use for the 6ppc anymore. Well i guess i cant really say that. There will be some shoots that require a 6mm, so i will continue shooting one but i am just saying that this hole 22ppc thing has me really excitted. To me it just makes since! Same accuracy with less recoil = a win win for me!! I know more than most fellas dont mind the recoil from a 6ppc, and to be real honest, it isn't bad, but the 22ppc will be less, and thats a huge plus for me.
I love to shoot, and i am not sure i will ever settle into just one discipline, or game, and i am just about done with my new 600 yard rifle. I went with a dasher for similar reasons. Less recoil and a stellar performance record. There again, if i though the 22dasher would hang with the 6dasher i would really consider it in the future. Heck, maybe it will, but at 17 pounds a 6mm dasher really isnt a problem. I really dont understand why i am so recoil sensitive, but i am, and i am glad we have such great options. This has been a good read. I see points from all sides, and i think thats the important thing. I am glad we have a place like this to share ideas, and facts. Lee
 
Lynn brings up a very good point...... "just enough" is most often better than "more than enough."

I have fought with recoil buggering my baggage, altho I've blamed most of it on the fact I'm shooting a cobbled together setup using a short 100yd BR rifle stock.

al
 
Squeakie
Gary if your after a 6mm coyote gun it is very hard to beat the 240 Weatherby,6x284 or 6mm-06.When you push the 105 grain bullets at 3425 fps they shoot flatter than a 6.5x284 and they retain more energy further out than the smaller cases are capable of.
I use the 6mm-06 with 57 grains of H1000 and a Berger 105 in Lapua 30-06 brass and it whacks them extremely hard.We use electronic calls or shoot them after the Squirrel Wars are over when they come in to eat.For shorter distances < 450 yards it is hard to beat the 220 Swift.
Lynn aka Waterboy
 
Lynn said:
Squeakie
Gary if your after a 6mm coyote gun it is very hard to beat the 240 Weatherby,6x284 or 6mm-06.When you push the 105 grain bullets at 3425 fps they shoot flatter than a 6.5x284 and they retain more energy further out than the smaller cases are capable of.
I use the 6mm-06 with 57 grains of H1000 and a Berger 105 in Lapua 30-06 brass and it whacks them extremely hard.We use electronic calls or shoot them after the Squirrel Wars are over when they come in to eat.For shorter distances < 450 yards it is hard to beat the 220 Swift.
Lynn aka Waterboy
Click to expand...

I mostly use my 6mm guns for Coyotes, and have had really good luck with the plain jane 6mm Remington case, but I also think there might just be a better way to go. My next 6mm dog gun will probably be a 6BR-DX or a 6x47 or 6x44 (leaning towards the 6x44). It will not have the 1:8 twist barrel next time around, and I think it's going to be somewhere around the 1:10 twist with 80 thru 90 grain bullets in mind. Yet I also love punching paper, so I may just do a Dasher or a 6BR as well.
As for the Swift, I know guys that shoot it and swear by it. I shoot a couple 22-250's, but long to get back to the 24 cailber bore. The 22-250 is easy to work with, but as good as it is the 6mm really smokes it all the way out to who knows where. To be exact I've pretty much shot all my dogs lately with my Remington in .223N.M., and use the 6mm's for everything beyond 300 yards. And besides if I hit a coyote at 450 yards with an 85 grain bullet out of a 6mm, I know he's hit. But anyway right now my main interest is getting back to the fine art of punching holes in paper, and this is the place to gleen information!
Gary
 
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Lynn said:
Skeetlee
All of the cartridges in this thread shoot extremely well.
The thing nobody seems to mention about the 6BR or its variants is the important role played by recoil.

Many many years ago a big bunch of deer hunters were sighting in there loudenboomers and were sending copious amounts of powder down there barrels trying to hit a steel gong.
Two young kids pulled up on there bicycles an asked if they could shoot at the gong with there $50 22 longrifles and cheap ammo.The deer hunters were laughing out loud telling them if we can't hit it with our fire-breathing superguns your wasting your time but go ahead. Those two kids knelt down and pelted that gong like it was 3 feet away.
It seems there is a threshhold on how much powder you can burn before each shooter looses the ability to agg small.If lightgun had a 35 pound limit I would expect the bigger cases to dominate.
Waterboy
Click to expand...

exactly
 
This is one great thread.

I am wanting to build some type of long range Rifle, no particular purpose in mind, just something that will reach way out there. The fact that there is a 1000 yard range being readied in Huntsville Tx, (1.5 hour drive), might have something to do with it.

I have a good friend that I helped put together a 6.5x55 Ackley Imp, he usues a 1-9 twist with that long 140 grn Berger VLD, which has a BC in the 600 range. He shoots it at a flat 3000 fps.

Since we already have this combo all worked out, (dies and all), I was wondering what you long rang shooters think of this combo. The Lapua Brass is really nice, the reamer we have requires just a tad turned from the necks to match things up. The reamer features a .295 neck and a freebore that matches the Berger Bullet so that the base is just at the neck shoulder junction...........jackie
 
Jackie.........Steve Shelp out here in NC has been quite successful with his 6.5 x 55 imp. at 1,000 yards. As far as the 6x47 Laupa? I have a reamer and did chamber one rifle with it that I never could get to shoot really well. I am now into the 6mmBRX and find it competitive down here at the Piedmont club. It was good enough to slip into third place in light gun just under the new record holder Sam Hall.
Rich De
 
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