Tuners!!!!

[linekin]

Our range is 20m and I was confident my tuner was sorted at that distance but I also shoot at both 50m and 90m more occasionally with the same rifle with the same tuner setting.

Until recently I was of the belief that a good TUNER setting was good for different ammo and at different distances.

I have a couple of different lots that perform exceptionally well at the 20m distance, one in particular Midas + that I compete with and has won and placed at 20m consistently at a State level and placed at 50m occasionally as well.

The last three 50m comps haven't gone as well even using the same ammo shooting in excellent conditions.
It appears that I need to reset the Tuner as there is a significant variation in high and lower shots and all three of the last 3 digital targets being similar

The above picture is from the 3 digital targets which we get to shoot occasionally but usually a 20 or 25 shot paper targets.
The overlap of 60 or 75 shots shot in competition highlights the variation of group sizes which isn't as apparent opposed to reading individual shots on paper targets or even shooting 10 shot groups.

What's surprised me is that I was super confident the tuner setting I have that has me shooting so well at 20m didn't seem to work so well for me at 50m

The pic below is shot at 20m same comp same day same ammo same tuner setting

Once your confident you have a excellent tuner setting my questions are more regarding,

1. Do different brands, speeds or lots of ammo require a different tuner setting to find improvement at the same distance.
2. Do different distances benefit from different tuner settings [tweaking] using the same ammo.

Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.

1. sometimes, not usually, don't be afraid to. Shouldn't be a wholesale change, not more than a few clicks.
2. Yes, at least for me at 100yds with what little I'd tried it. Tend to agree with Lee though in that its ammo dependent.
YMMV

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

Our range is 20m and I was confident my tuner was sorted at that distance but I also shoot at both 50m and 90m more occasionally with the same rifle with the same tuner setting.

Until recently I was of the belief that a good TUNER setting was good for different ammo and at different distances.

I have a couple of different lots that perform exceptionally well at the 20m distance, one in particular Midas + that I compete with and has won and placed at 20m consistently at a State level and placed at 50m occasionally as well.

The last three 50m comps haven't gone as well even using the same ammo shooting in excellent conditions.
It appears that I need to reset the Tuner as there is a significant variation in high and lower shots and all three of the last 3 digital targets being similar

The above picture is from the 3 digital targets which we get to shoot occasionally but usually a 20 or 25 shot paper targets.
The overlap of 60 or 75 shots shot in competition highlights the variation of group sizes which isn't as apparent opposed to reading individual shots on paper targets or even shooting 10 shot groups.

What's surprised me is that I was super confident the tuner setting I have that has me shooting so well at 20m didn't seem to work so well for me at 50m

The pic below is shot at 20m same comp same day same ammo same tuner setting

Once your confident you have a excellent tuner setting my questions are more regarding,

1. Do different brands, speeds or lots of ammo require a different tuner setting to find improvement at the same distance.
2. Do different distances benefit from different tuner settings [tweaking] using the same ammo.

Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.

1. Do different brands, speeds or lots of ammo require a different tuner setting to find improvement at the same distance.

I cannot say about different brands, but it shouldn't matter. once you find the setting for that rifle/barrel only the consistency/quality of the ammo will matter if the rifle has shot really good scores and now it isn't because of an ammo switch why would you think it is the tuner setting the ammo is simply not up to par for shooting at the level the rifle did before the switch. if you have the correct setting on the tuner you shouldn't need to adjust it.

2. Do different distances benefit from different tuner settings [tweaking] using the same ammo.

As I mentioned if you have the correct tuner setting in this case for 50yds. at 100 ammo is what will determine how it will perform.

Here are some examples of if you have the correct setting only ammo performance will matter. to tweak as some will say the tuner IMO is only masking what is a lot that is simply not up to par.
all of these targets were shot with the same rifle same tuner setting but with different lots at different distances. the 250-22X target was shot with a lot that wasn't used to tune the rifle and wasn't even lot tested, so I have to ask why I will want to touch the tuner if I have a lot that can't shoot at the same level. tuning is about getting the rifle to shoot consistently not trying to make ammo to be. the 100 yd target again different lot same rifle tuner setting. the 50-shot group a lot never before shot in this rifle and at 100yd how many rifles can shoot 5-shot groups of the same size at this distance?

I suggest you retune at 50m with you best shooting ammo honestly at 20m a good rifle without a tuner should be capable of producing the same groups
you did with a tuner.

Lee

 

[tim]

From everything I have personally seen, from What I have been told by guys way above my rimfire pay grade, you are wasting your time shooting @20m.

 

[vicfox]

From everything I have personally seen, from What I have been told by guys way above my rimfire pay grade, you are wasting your time shooting @20m.

That's like a SNOOKER PLAYER saying that playing POOL is a waste of time based on the size of the table.

Believe me Tim until you have shot it competitively its hard to appreciate how good it is and how many struggle to score extremely consistently. All the same elements play out the same just at a different ratio to the target. A couple of 1/1000 of an inch make a big difference at 20m when it comes to score
Many an excellent 50m shooter struggles to achieve top scores at 20 but many who master 20m shoot exceptionally well at 20m.

Same argument might be made for indoor verses outdoor but again those who master the art score the best

But this is about tuners

 

[tim]

No actually , that’s a guy that has had guys that built world record guns and tried it until they proved to themselves it's a waste of time, tuner twisting and ammo……you learn zero.
Like Lee stated, groups @ 20 about the same with or without a tuner. Nobody reliably tunes at 20-25.

 

[vicfox]

OK lets not relate my 2 questions to 20m and focus them on 50 or 100m / yards.

I'd prefer to hear the experiences on that than opinions on the shooting at 20m from someone who hasn't shot it

 

[linekin]

OK lets not relate my 2 questions to 20m and focus them on 50 or 100m / yards.

I'd prefer to hear the experiences on that than opinions on the shooting at 20m from someone who hasn't shot it

As I said I have limited experience shooting 100yds with a tuner. Most of it done in less than ideal(comfortable) temperatures also. I was able to improve upon my groups after adjusting my tuner but was never satisfied with how the rifles shot.
You may find more info on tuners/100yds on rimfire central. This is pretty much a sanctioned 50yd BR forum.
A couple years ago I asked if there was any interest in sanctioned 100yd br on a few forums & had very few that were interested. Not enough to bother with it. Most thought there were to many variables in the added yardage & there's plenty of 50yd opportunities each weekend already.
Also people like to shoot high scores which isn't going to happen consistently enough for them at 100.
Good luck in your efforts though!

 

[doghunter]

I might add that I had never tested my Lowey tuner at 100m, but my 50m testing did reveal a node close to where the 100m node eventuated (but this node was never investigated further at the time).

Of course, at my next visit to the range I plan to investigate this new node further as it would be sweet to find a tune that is good for both 50m and 100m.

So is this actually possible or am I missing something?

Regards * Doggie * (New to rimfire tuners)

Just an update.

Today was our first rimfire comp at 50m since I adjusted my Lowey tuner at 100m last month.

Well, what a pleasant surprise, the 100m node worked sweetly at 50m, possibly better than it had previously.

We had good conditions, a slight R-L breeze that just managed to move the flags so I ended up scoring 200.6 out of a possible 200.20 (20 shots).

Then an informal 100m fly shoot managed 94/100 (1in center bull) so very happy.

This was shot using sorted Eley Tenex.

After the comp I tested some Lapua Center X (sorted) and while not as good as the Tenex the old Annie was still in tune. (Tight 5 shot groups, just a lower point of impact than the Tenex)

Regards from Down Under * Doggie *

 

[vicfox]

Thanks for the update Doghunter.

I've been reading as much as I can re tuner adjustments for various ammo and settings for various distances.

Seems there is two trains of thought on this with those who "set and forget" once you find the right setting and those who retune for the variation mentioned.

So once ammunition becomes available enough to the extent I can find some quantity
batches that are good enough to do considerable testing I'll try and determine the answer for myself.

Recently I tries a couple of minor adjustments up and down in rotations searching for a sweeter setting and 20 anticlockwise clicks has made an improvement which at this stage suit different ammunition at both 20 and 50m which is pleasing.

I'll keep learning

 

[mwezell]

Thanks for the update Doghunter.

I've been reading as much as I can re tuner adjustments for various ammo and settings for various distances.

Seems there is two trains of thought on this with those who "set and forget" once you find the right setting and those who retune for the variation mentioned.

So once ammunition becomes available enough to the extent I can find some quantity
batches that are good enough to do considerable testing I'll try and determine the answer for myself.

Recently I tries a couple of minor adjustments up and down in rotations searching for a sweeter setting and 20 anticlockwise clicks has made an improvement which at this stage suit different ammunition at both 20 and 50m which is pleasing.

I'll keep learning

Narrow those adjustments way down, if you haven't already. By far the most common mistake by those that move tuners at all is moving them way too far at a time. Try to establish group shape and size between as close as possible to perfect tune to as absolutely out of tune as you can make it. Move the tuner ONLY 2 marks at a time. I find that it's remarkably predictable, even over different makes of common tuners(or close), that all the way in to all the way out of tune is about 8-10 marks. Moving 2 marks at a time, this is only 4-5 group shapes to familiarize yourself with in regard to how close or how far from in tune you are.

I have a tuning method that is intent is pretty much just that, to show how far between sweet spots and to quantify group shapes to tell you how far you need to move it to be back at a sweet spot. Tuners are relatively simple to use but if you move too much at a time, you quickly start chasing your tail, skipping over sweet spots and not having repeatable results because of it.

I'm not going to claim my way is the only way but that I can support my methodology with testing as well as vibration analysis testing. It's simply a method that breaks things down and shows you the value of each adjustment and how far between sweet spots. Without knowing those things, it's easy to see why so many people either chase their tail or wind up on a single setting, then testing ammo that shoots best there, in the conditions they are shooting in.

It's pretty easy to establish mark values and how far between sweet spots, but only if yu are will to move no more than a couple of marks at a time. With a really light tuner, that may be more along the lines of 4-5 marks at a time, which explains why some people(a few) have good luck with lightened tuners and moving them in larger increments that I do. It's all pretty relative and it's not voodoo nor art, but just a matter of being very methodical and quantifying mark values of YOUR tuner and rifle, on target. People are funny creatures, so when they find something to work for them, they are hesitant to accept other ways of doing things, to the point of ignoring physics at times. Most of those people advocate never moving a tuner. But no one has ever explained to me how there is one magical spot that shoots everything well, in all conditions. Fact is, they don't. They test different lots, shoot what works best and few test lots that didn't perform well at a given setting. I've done it both ways and some of my best lots were lots that didn't test well at all at a given tuner setting. Small groups mean that a given lot worked at a given tuner setting. Using examples of other lots to shoot at the same setting simply means..just that..they both shot well there. The real truth comes out when you have established mark values and how far between sweet spots. Move the tuner randomly or just too much at a time and see random results from it. Moving it with "cause and for reason", knowing what to expect, is the exact opposite thing. Pick your poison. Lol!

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

Just an update.

Today was our first rimfire comp at 50m since I adjusted my Lowey tuner at 100m last month.

Well, what a pleasant surprise, the 100m node worked sweetly at 50m, possibly better than it had previously.

We had good conditions, a slight R-L breeze that just managed to move the flags so I ended up scoring 200.6 out of a possible 200.20 (20 shots).

Then an informal 100m fly shoot managed 94/100 (1in center bull) so very happy.

This was shot using sorted Eley Tenex.

After the comp I tested some Lapua Center X (sorted) and while not as good as the Tenex the old Annie was still in tune. (Tight 5 shot groups, just a lower point of impact than the Tenex)

Regards from Down Under * Doggie *

Sounds like you found something that works. question by what means do you sort ammo.

Lee

 

[doghunter]

Sounds like you found something that works. question by what means do you sort ammo.

Lee

I measured rim thickness and diameter and weight.

What a waste of time.

Top shelf ammo is very consistent in these dimensions.

So my ammo was sorted by length from inside the rim to top of the driving band.

There I found a few discrepancies and so made a gauge to measure the variations.

It does make a difference to one's score.

I also reload for centerfire so the 'jump' can affect accuracy.

I made a simple gauge, and it improved my scores.

I apologise for not posting a photo but this site has a serious problem with attachments

* Doggie *

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

I measured rim thickness and diameter and weight.

What a waste of time.

Top shelf ammo is very consistent in these dimensions.

So my ammo was sorted by length from inside the rim to top of the driving band.

There I found a few discrepancies and so made a gauge to measure the variations.

It does make a difference to one's score.

I also reload for centerfire so the 'jump' can affect accuracy.

I made a simple gauge, and it improved my scores.

I apologise for not posting a photo but this site has a serious problem with attachments

* Doggie *

Thanks Doggie, I also use OAL to sort and found that it does help though with the higher tier ammo there is less variations.

Lee

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

Thanks for the update Doghunter.

I've been reading as much as I can re tuner adjustments for various ammo and settings for various distances.

Seems there is two trains of thought on this with those who "set and forget" once you find the right setting and those who retune for the variation mentioned.

So once ammunition becomes available enough to the extent I can find some quantity
batches that are good enough to do considerable testing I'll try and determine the answer for myself.

Recently I tries a couple of minor adjustments up and down in rotations searching for a sweeter setting and 20 anticlockwise clicks has made an improvement which at this stage suit different ammunition at both 20 and 50m which is pleasing.

I'll keep learning

Vicfox,

I believe you are saying moving in by 20 clicks found a setting that will shoot different ammo and also have good results at both 20m and 50m. sounds like you found something that is working. would be interesting if it also shoots at 100

Lee

 

[doghunter]

Rimfire Length Gauge

I managed to locate a photo that I uploaded a few years ago.

https://benchrest.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=16040&d=1428101493

* doggie *

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

I managed to locate a photo that I uploaded a few years ago.

https://benchrest.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=16040&d=1428101493

* doggie *

Thanks Doggie, I use the G-3 MK gauge.

Lee

 

[vicfox]

Vicfox,

I believe you are saying moving in by 20 clicks found a setting that will shoot different ammo and also have good results at both 20m and 50m. sounds like you found something that is working. would be interesting if it also shoots at 100

Lee

Hi Lee,
I appreciate your interest.
When I say different ammo I mean good batches of Lapua Cen X and Midas +.

Without ample amounts of ammunition I didn't want to go through exhaustive testing with quality proven rounds to re tune so I only tried the three different setting and with an obvious improvement I have settled where it sits for now.

Yes at this stage it almost at its best if not back to its best at both 20m and 50m but as for 100y/m that distance has yet to be shot at.

I don't have a great deal of my 90m scores to compare it to and none with this rifle but have a good understanding of what is good or not.

As for testing tuner settings at that range, ammo again would hamper that process. but I have every intention to do considerable tunes testing at what distances I can.

In December we have a interclub event to shoot at 90m so that will be my chance to see how it performs which hopefully it performs as is.

Are you thinking 100 is a better distance to determine tune ?

I appreciate that 20m is a harder distance to see variation related to tune.

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

Hi Lee,
I appreciate your interest.
When I say different ammo I mean good batches of Lapua Cen X and Midas +.

Without ample amounts of ammunition I didn't want to go through exhaustive testing with quality proven rounds to re tune so I only tried the three different setting and with an obvious improvement I have settled where it sits for now.

Yes at this stage it almost at its best if not back to its best at both 20m and 50m but as for 100y/m that distance has yet to be shot at.

I don't have a great deal of my 90m scores to compare it to and none with this rifle but have a good understanding of what is good or not.

As for testing tuner settings at that range, ammo again would hamper that process. but I have every intention to do considerable tunes testing at what distances I can.

In December we have a interclub event to shoot at 90m so that will be my chance to see how it performs which hopefully it performs as is.

Are you thinking 100 is a better distance to determine tune ?

I appreciate that 20m is a harder distance to see variation related to tune.

Hi Vicfox, I understand, but you are able to shoot different lots? and not have to make any adjustments currently. if I remember correctly, you are shooting a couple of Anschutz's and a Vudoo? as far as 90m or 100 not sure it that 10m will make that much of a difference.

if it shoots really good at 50m then 90 or 100 will be on how the ammo can do at those distances. I have 2 lots of CX one shot 11mm @ 50 & 20.88mm @100m another 12.14mm@ 50m & 18.58mm@100m this last lot has always shot really good at 100m in all my rifles that were all tune at 50yds. no additional tuner adjustments needed just shot them as they were.

getting back to 20m I remember a few years back you posted a target that is used at 20m competition you shot it with your Anschutz no tuner I believe, and you had blown out every bull this is a great example of how 20m will have very little difference on performance of both rifle and ammo.
good luck and keep us updated when you can.

Lee

 

[vicfox]

Thanks Lee.

No different lots of the same ammo to shoot at the moment but at least what I have shoots very well just not enough of it to shoot at anything other than comps. Our supply of any ammo is exceptionally low and the outlook is grim.

The Anschutz situation has change over the last 12 months. I originally had a a 2013 that was very good but got onto a 54.30 that was good value used and if it didn't shoot better than the 2013 I would most likely pick up a profit if I moved it on but as I expected it was an excellent shooter and it took me to that next level.
With that quest for more accuracy I placed an order for a custom 2500x and have had it since February and its that bit more accurate again so days.

Cheers David

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

Thanks Lee.

No different lots of the same ammo to shoot at the moment but at least what I have shoots very well just not enough of it to shoot at anything other than comps. Our supply of any ammo is exceptionally low and the outlook is grim.

The Anschutz situation has change over the last 12 months. I originally had a a 2013 that was very good but got onto a 54.30 that was good value used and if it didn't shoot better than the 2013 I would most likely pick up a profit if I moved it on but as I expected it was an excellent shooter and it took me to that next level.
With that quest for more accuracy I placed an order for a custom 2500x and have had it since February and its that bit more accurate again so days.

Cheers David

Hi David,

So, you have a 2500 now didn't you have V22S? anyway good to hear that the 2500 is shooting well I kind of miss my original Falcon but since I don't shoot that many sanctioned matches my Anschutz's and now a M12 I built is all I need.
hope you find some ammo and really get to further test.

Lee