Tuners!!!!

[404tbang]

And here we go. Still no answer? A set of calipers is a dangerous tool in a fools hand. He thinks he's a machinist or something.

Lee, I'm use to working in the tool and die industry and machining. I've been doing it in some capacity for 30 something years. Could I have made a mistake? Sure. But you never let me check it. Could that be because it measured correctly and that you gave me a bad measurement of your barrel? I guess we'll never know the truth to that huh?

That's the rest of that story and a glimpse into why I think you are a person of low or no integrity. You just confirmed it to everyone. Thank you.

The above poster is the sole reason I no longer bore tuners to a measurement provided by the customer. I offered to check it and make it right but he didn't want to ship it back. I offered him a solution and he got online and bashed me over this. All this for what was a free service if I recall.

BTW, do you have back trouble?


Still no answer?

I have back trouble. It's been a nightmare for over 25 years.

And it's no joking matter.

May you never have it.

Take care,

Greg

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

And here we go. Still no answer? A set of calipers is a dangerous tool in a fools hand. He thinks he's a machinist or something.

Lee, I'm use to working in the tool and die industry and machining. I've been doing it in some capacity for 30 something years. Could I have made a mistake? Sure. But you never let me check it. Could that be because it measured correctly and that you gave me a bad measurement of your barrel? I guess we'll never know the truth to that huh?

That's the rest of that story and a glimpse into why I think you are a person of low or no integrity. You just confirmed it to everyone. Thank you.

The above poster is the sole reason I no longer bore tuners to a measurement provided by the customer. I offered to check it and make it right but he didn't want to ship it back. I offered him a solution and he got online and bashed me over this. All this for what was a free service if I recall.

BTW, do you have back trouble?


Still no answer?

I wasn't talking about the tuner I bought from you! yes as stupid as you think I am I have others who contact me and tell me things after they speak with you. the most recent was about 2 weeks ago, you talked you way out of that sale.

and for the record I waited 6 weeks while you shot matches after I paid you in full for the tuner. you did not mention I would have to wait. your memory from 8 years ago isn't that good. I did not mention the wrong bore until about 2 years later on RFC in our many exchanges about tuning. but is it typical of you to blame the buyer from what I am told.
think what you like about me but privately your reputation is not very good after people speak with you on the phone.


I am done here like always you insult me but won't explain why what I am doing is not possible because it is against science.

Lee

 

[mwezell]

I wasn't talking about the tuner I bought from you! yes as stupid as you think I am I have others who contact me and tell me things after they speak with you. the most recent was about 2 weeks ago, you talked you way out of that sale.

and for the record I waited 6 weeks while you shot matches after I paid you in full for the tuner. you did not mention I would have to wait. your memory from 8 years ago isn't that good. I did not mention the wrong bore until about 2 years later on RFC in our many exchanges about tuning.
think what you like about me but privately your reputation is not very good after people speak with you on the phone.

Lee

That sucks because I only do tuner orders by phone. Lol!
Since I don't bore them to fit the bbl, you made that up.
I have lost sales for not boring them out. It is my decision not to. I'm guessing that's what you're referring to.
Still no answer, Lee?

 

[404tbang]

That sucks because I only do tuner orders by phone. Lol!
Since I don't bore them to fit the bbl, you made that up.
I have lost sales for not boring them out. It is my decision not to. I'm guessing that's what you're referring to.
Still no answer, Lee?

Howdy Mike,

He said he was done here.

Why try to get him to continue when he said he's done?

I saw what you deleted/edited, by the way.

I know I'm not alone in seeing it.

I almost quoted it to ask you why you would do that.

Would you want someone doing that to you?

I'd hope not.

I think you are better than that.

Take care,

Greg

 

[mwezell]

Howdy Mike,

He said he was done here.

Why try to get him to continue when he said he's done?

I saw what you deleted/edited, by the way.

I know I'm not alone in seeing it.

I almost quoted it to ask you why you would do that.

Would you want someone doing that to you?

I'd hope not.

I think you are better than that.

Take care,

Greg

I hope he is done but I must've missed where he said that he is. We'll see. Looks like he added that to the post after I had read it and likely while I was replying.
I deleted it for the same reason you mention but I shouldn't have to put up with his attacks either. It had simply gone too far. Enough is enough. What I deleted was actually biting my tongue. Like I said, I hope it's done. I'll stop when the attacks on me stop. It's all fun and games until I fight back with the same tactics, I guess. Where were you while he was slandering me? Now, I defend myself and apparently that was in poor taste. Thanks but I held that back for a long time(years) and now it's gone so lets move on.

 

[Johnrh]

That sucks because I only do tuner orders by phone. Lol!
Since I don't bore them to fit the bbl, you made that up.
I have lost sales for not boring them out. It is my decision not to. I'm guessing that's what you're referring to.
Still no answer, Lee?

I see you deleted your personal attack on Lee. I'll resurrect a summary of it so others will know. You brought up, for some nasty reason some car accident and a claim he, or someone with the same name, filed. That's crossing the line Ezell. You can have all your science and physics crap all you want it makes no difference to tuning for the alliterate us, only you bloviating about your brilliance and everyone's else's ignorance when they debate with you. (yeah, you and Tim have gone at it for years) One thing liberals do very well is when they are confronted they resort to insults and name calling and irrelevant comments. But I've learned a few things from you.
1. A different approach to tuning which in the end gets you to the same place. Thank you.
2. You have no character.

Now I know Lee, I've had dinner with Lee, I've corresponded with Lee many times for his opinions and help. Lee is one of the nicest and most helpful guys in RFBR I've ever met.

And I was one of those who got your tuner only to have to return it because it didn't fit either. You criticized my using a caliper to get the diameter. Not very pleasantly either. In spite of the fact I have had THREE tuners cut by others using that same calipers and they all fit fine. Now you did, reluctantly, allow me to return it so you could recut it but I had to tell you how much to cut. You did and then it fit fine. But you weren't very pleasant about it. I just ordered two more tuners but not yours by the way. now, in some fairness, I suspect you, with your 30 years experience, cut the tuners to a much closer tolerance than others who most likely add a few thousands as the slot allows for a less snug fit. And yours has the slot also.

One other thing, I was an engineer for over 40 years before I retired. I understand the science and physics of which you say. I actually have no argument with what you say, just the way you say it with your put downs. So have at it with me Ezell. Go for it. Don't care. You crossed the line Ezell and I hope others see how far you crossed it.

What a shame, it could have been an enjoyable and educational discussion for all.

 

[mwezell]

I see you deleted your personal attack on Lee. I'll resurrect a summary of it so others will know. You brought up, for some nasty reason some car accident and a claim he, or someone with the same name, filed. That's crossing the line Ezell. You can have all your science and physics crap all you want it makes no difference to tuning for the alliterate us, only you bloviating about your brilliance and everyone's else's ignorance when they debate with you. (yeah, you and Tim have gone at it for years) One thing liberals do very well is when they are confronted they resort to insults and name calling and irrelevant comments. But I've learned a few things from you.
1. A different approach to tuning which in the end gets you to the same place. Thank you.
2. You have no character.

Now I know Lee, I've had dinner with Lee, I've corresponded with Lee many times for his opinions and help. Lee is one of the nicest and most helpful guys in RFBR I've ever met.

And I was one of those who got your tuner only to have to return it because it didn't fit either. You criticized my using a caliper to get the diameter. Not very pleasantly either. In spite of the fact I have had THREE tuners cut by others using that same calipers and they all fit fine. Now you did, reluctantly, allow me to return it so you could recut it but I had to tell you how much to cut. You did and then it fit fine. But you weren't very pleasant about it. I just ordered two more tuners but not yours by the way. now, in some fairness, I suspect you, with your 30 years experience, cut the tuners to a much closer tolerance than others who most likely add a few thousands as the slot allows for a less snug fit. And yours has the slot also.

One other thing, I was an engineer for over 40 years before I retired. I understand the science and physics of which you say. I actually have no argument with what you say, just the way you say it with your put downs. So have at it with me Ezell. Go for it. Don't care. You crossed the line Ezell and I hope others see how far you crossed it.

What a shame, it could have been an enjoyable and educational discussion for all.

Lol! Sorry to hear all that, truly. I don't think I mentioned it was a car accident. Is that what it was? Thank you. It could've and should've stopped a long time ago. I understand you taking up for your friend. I would do the same thing. I don't think you and I have enough history with one another for either of us to make claims about the other's character. So to say that, you're just looking for trouble. What I said may have been in poor taste but I don't apologize for my honesty or for defending myself from his attacks that had gone too far, for too long. Sometimes telling the truth hurts some toes. Regardless it's gone and I no longer bore tuners to customer supplied dimensions and yours was corrected. Sorry you had a problem at all but apparently this all became a problem in defense of your friend. I bend over backward to help my customers and to actually talk with them. I truly want 100% satisfaction and great support. I'm sorry you were disappointed but I'm glad it was resolved. I wish you both the best.

 

[tim]

I see you deleted your personal attack on Lee. I'll resurrect a summary of it so others will know. You brought up, for some nasty reason some car accident and a claim he, or someone with the same name, filed. That's crossing the line Ezell. You can have all your science and physics crap all you want it makes no difference to tuning for the alliterate us, only you bloviating about your brilliance and everyone's else's ignorance when they debate with you. (yeah, you and Tim have gone at it for years) One thing liberals do very well is when they are confronted they resort to insults and name calling and irrelevant comments. But I've learned a few things from you.
1. A different approach to tuning which in the end gets you to the same place. Thank you.
2. You have no character.

Now I know Lee, I've had dinner with Lee, I've corresponded with Lee many times for his opinions and help. Lee is one of the nicest and most helpful guys in RFBR I've ever met.

And I was one of those who got your tuner only to have to return it because it didn't fit either. You criticized my using a caliper to get the diameter. Not very pleasantly either. In spite of the fact I have had THREE tuners cut by others using that same calipers and they all fit fine. Now you did, reluctantly, allow me to return it so you could recut it but I had to tell you how much to cut. You did and then it fit fine. But you weren't very pleasant about it. I just ordered two more tuners but not yours by the way. now, in some fairness, I suspect you, with your 30 years experience, cut the tuners to a much closer tolerance than others who most likely add a few thousands as the slot allows for a less snug fit. And yours has the slot also.

One other thing, I was an engineer for over 40 years before I retired. I understand the science and physics of which you say. I actually have no argument with what you say, just the way you say it with your put downs. So have at it with me Ezell. Go for it. Don't care. You crossed the line Ezell and I hope others see how far you crossed it.

What a shame, it could have been an enjoyable and educational discussion for all.

Don’t know you, but I consider Lee somewhat of a new friend…..nice post.
Notice Mikey always responds with some smarmy version of why you’re wrong.
The guy doesn’t even shoot, comes on every thread to preach and shill his wares. Lots of vendors around these forums, most of’em humble, rarely if ever will you see them relentlessly beat their own drum.Your right about he and I going at it. I’m allergic to bullsh.t but unlike Ezell, I have an actual record to back it up. Thanks.

 

[mwezell]

Don’t know you, but I consider Lee somewhat of a new friend…..nice post.
Notice Mikey always responds with some smarmy version of why you’re wrong.
The guy doesn’t even shoot, comes on every thread to preach and shill his wares. Lots of vendors around these forums, most of’em humble, rarely if ever will you see them relentlessly beat their own drum.Your right about he and I going at it. I’m allergic to bullsh.t but unlike Ezell, I have an actual record to back it up. Thanks.

I did shoot ara and psl. I still do shoot just not registered. You keep spewing your lies that don't get more true as you tell them.
I didn't say he was wrong. In fact, if he got poor service from me, then he's right because I try my best to leave no reason for anyone to be dissatisfied. Do we agree about his post..ehh maybe not, but my goal is still the same, 100% satisfaction. If I failed, that's on me. The personal stuff is a different matter. I don't budge on those things. I do me, you do you, and we can at least respect that. If not... I still do me and you can still do you. But you and I have zero experience with my business and you attack me for your own reasons. That's strictly personal and should be dealt with like men...straight up. No bs, just me and you. Hopefully it ends settled as adults. You and me go way back online. I've never met you, never done business with you and I don't know what's up your backside. But we should settle it like adults and stop the bs on here and everywhere you follow me around. We disagree. I'm still not sure so much why but it is what it is. It's you and Lee that always have a thorn up your arse about a tuning method that you don't like. Neither of you ever put forth anything other than the same old bs and never anything based on physics. One last time Timmy...lets agree to disagree and move on. I truly hope we can do that. We are a small group. We all know each other through somebody. The very best resolution is for us to settle this between us and stop the bs. We have no relationship of any kind so no loss either way. Just scroll on by and that solves it all. It's not hard or complicated and it's the best for us and the sport.

 

[tim]

So….you don’t shoot, got it, thanks.

 

[mwezell]

So….you don’t shoot, got it, thanks.

So...I'm not too rusty. I still shoot just not enough time or money to shoot everything. My preference in cf or I'd be shooting registered Ara and psl matches. I find the vast majority of people in both to be great people.
I can't think of a single bad apple in cf. Not one, but I'm sure there is. Don't you shoot cf too? Well, there ya go! I was wrong.

Why do you bother replying? Still infatuated or what?

 

[gkgeiger]

The last reply wins.

 

[George Atkins]

There has been a lot of discussion about tuners on another channel lately.

These discussions often spawn a new batch of what has been called. "Jack in the box tuner twisters" (Thanks BH for the term)

I know this post will rub many the wrong way but it is written with good intentions.

There is a time to twist tuners, and there is a time not to. Twist away until your heart is content at home, on the range, in your back yard, wherever.

But when you are at a match, and you have other shooters beside you please don't do it.

Show up at a match with your rifle ready to shoot. I know this isn't always possible, you may need to check your zero, but finding the "best tune, or even a better tune" during the time allotted for a target just isn't good.

Remember the clock is running, and each time you turn that tuner you lose your zero. The hole you were in just got deeper. Not only are you looking for a better tune, you also have to re zero, and you have less time to do it.

I know you are hoping you will dial that tuner just a click or two, and all of a sudden everything will be great, but I promise you, that doesn't often happen.

Reaching up and turning that tuner distracts shooters on both sides of you. In doors, where the benches are close it is really bad.

In the long run it is better to shoot it as you brought it or find another lot of ammo. Even changing lot numbers has a down side, but not as deep as dialing that tuner.

TKH

Just thought I would refresh every ones memory of what this thread is about, before it turned into the soap opera it is now.

Personally I do not use tuners much, I have found if your ammo is not all that good, it's not really going to help anyway. If your ammo is good, it's not going to make it much better, well in the type of rifles I shoot anyway YMMV however. Most of the best targets I have shot, were without a tuner. I have shot ARA and IR50 both. Did you know that ARA keeps records of every registered shooter and the matches they have attended ? Match dates plus your finishing position the scores, at least since 2012. Had I known that, I may had given them an alias. Naw, wouldn't done that.

I started with a 52D Winchester, did okay, bought a custom that had a tuner set at 225 when I got it. Like anyone else, I had to see if it would shoot better at some other setting. Well it didn't and I never moved it until I altered the length of the barrel. I was trying to get it in the 10.5 lb IR class. Well 2" did the trick. I started at zero and slowly worked my way out until I arrived at the sweet spot. Never guess where that was. 225 again, go figure. That was several years ago, I have since went back to shooting my old 52D and chasing ammo.

 

[PedroS]

Very nice post!

People don't realize that a perfect rifle doesn't exist... neither perfect ammo.
And even if they could be found, you have to shoot it at the end of the day. So better be a good shooter, than a so-so one

My experience and learning tough me a couple of things:
1. Bad ammo is bad ammo
2. You can only tune a rifle to your shooting level
3. A great shooter will always outscore a so-so one
4. I never change critical aspects at a tournament

 

[Serapio]

Very nice post!

People don't realize that a perfect rifle doesn't exist... neither perfect ammo.
And even if they could be found, you have to shoot it at the end of the day. So better be a good shooter, than a so-so one

My experience and learning tough me a couple of things:
1. Bad ammo is bad ammo
2. You can only tune a rifle to your shooting level
3. A great shooter will always outscore a so-so one
4. I never change critical aspects at a tournament

Words of wisdom PedroS...
The truth is that it lasts longer and that is a reality!

 

[doghunter]

Tuner Setting When Changing Distance To Target

G'day all.

I thought that I had my Lowey (Australian) tuner dialed in for 50m as I was obtaining decent scores at my local club comps.

Rifle is an Anschutz 1411 Match 54, ammo is sorted Eley Tenex. Air temp was 12°C and wind was twitchy mainly from about 9 ranging from 0 - 5 km/h

As none of us had fired a 100m competition since 2019 I persuaded a few of my club-mates to put up a target and we had an informal comp (just for bragging rights). Our local range has been closed for much of 2020-2022 due to local lock-down and travel restrictions.

Well what a surprise! I had the slight wind changes dialed in by looking at my flags so no horizontal spread but the vertical spread was terrible.

After a few shots on my sighter target I managed to eliminate the vertical but this required about 10 clicks to move my tuner outward from what I had assumed was a good tune for 50m.

This was a bit concerning as I assumed that once the barrel was tuned to the ammo at 50m, it would be tuned for all practical rimfire distances.

I might add that I had never tested my Lowey tuner at 100m, but my 50m testing did reveal a node close to where the 100m node eventuated (but this node was never investigated further at the time).

Of course, at my next visit to the range I plan to investigate this new node further as it would be sweet to find a tune that is good for both 50m and 100m.

So is this actually possible or am I missing something?

Regards * Doggie * (New to rimfire tuners)

 

[tim]

FWIW, here in the U.S. virtually nobody shoots any form of RFBR past 50M.

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

G'day all.

I thought that I had my Lowey (Australian) tuner dialed in for 50m as I was obtaining decent scores at my local club comps.

Rifle is an Anschutz 1411 Match 54, ammo is sorted Eley Tenex. Air temp was 12°C and wind was twitchy mainly from about 9 ranging from 0 - 5 km/h

As none of us had fired a 100m competition since 2019 I persuaded a few of my club-mates to put up a target and we had an informal comp (just for bragging rights). Our local range has been closed for much of 2020-2022 due to local lock-down and travel restrictions.

Well what a surprise! I had the slight wind changes dialed in by looking at my flags so no horizontal spread but the vertical spread was terrible.

After a few shots on my sighter target I managed to eliminate the vertical but this required about 10 clicks to move my tuner outward from what I had assumed was a good tune for 50m.

This was a bit concerning as I assumed that once the barrel was tuned to the ammo at 50m, it would be tuned for all practical rimfire distances.

I might add that I had never tested my Lowey tuner at 100m, but my 50m testing did reveal a node close to where the 100m node eventuated (but this node was never investigated further at the time).

Of course, at my next visit to the range I plan to investigate this new node further as it would be sweet to find a tune that is good for both 50m and 100m.

So is this actually possible or am I missing something?

Regards * Doggie * (New to rimfire tuners)

Shooting at 100yds./ meters is really ammo dependent. meaning the ammo must be capable of performing at that distance. some lots will kill at 50 but fall apart at 100. but you have to have it tuned correctly at 50 too.

I shot this target recently at 100 yds. first time I shot a target at 100 in 2+ years. this lot of CX at 100m did an 18.54mm 10-shot group at Lapua's Mesa tunnel back in 2019 rifle is a 1411 with a BM barrel. the second target ai 50 shots at 100 with a new lot never shot before in this rifle a quarter is .955 in diameter.

Lee
P.S Tim is correct most RFBR is at 50y/50m

 

[doghunter]

Shooting at 100yds./ meters is really ammo dependent. meaning the ammo must be capable of performing at that distance. some lots will kill at 50 but fall apart at 100. but you have to have it tuned correctly at 50 too.

Thanks Lee. I shall try again at 100m with some Lapua Midas + that I have stored away, my Annie shoots well with it.

Regards * Doggie *

 

[vicfox]

Our range is 20m and I was confident my tuner was sorted at that distance but I also shoot at both 50m and 90m more occasionally with the same rifle with the same tuner setting.

Until recently I was of the belief that a good TUNER setting was good for different ammo and at different distances.

I have a couple of different lots that perform exceptionally well at the 20m distance, one in particular Midas + that I compete with and has won and placed at 20m consistently at a State level and placed at 50m occasionally as well.

The last three 50m comps haven't gone as well even using the same ammo shooting in excellent conditions.
It appears that I need to reset the Tuner as there is a significant variation in high and lower shots and all three of the last 3 digital targets being similar

The above picture is from the 3 digital targets which we get to shoot occasionally but usually a 20 or 25 shot paper targets.
The overlap of 60 or 75 shots shot in competition highlights the variation of group sizes which isn't as apparent opposed to reading individual shots on paper targets or even shooting 10 shot groups.

What's surprised me is that I was super confident the tuner setting I have that has me shooting so well at 20m didn't seem to work so well for me at 50m

The pic below is shot at 20m same comp same day same ammo same tuner setting

Once your confident you have a excellent tuner setting my questions are more regarding,

1. Do different brands, speeds or lots of ammo require a different tuner setting to find improvement at the same distance.
2. Do different distances benefit from different tuner settings [tweaking] using the same ammo.

Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.