"Three Rings of Steel" Question/Discussion

Somebody posted a how to on this with a manual mill. That is after opening up the bolt on the lathe. I don't remember if it was on this forum or not. It may have been Mike Bryant. Seems like you needed the right size dovetail cutter I believe.
Butch
 
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couldn't you offset the bolt & still do it in a lathe.jim
 
Butch Lambert said:
Somebody posted a how to on this....It may have been Mike Bryant.
Butch
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Butch I think originally on this board it came from Jay from Idaho but not too long ago I also think he said he had lost the info. I at one time had his info but I too cannot find it.

Just found semi-recent post by Jay and he indeed lost the dimensions but stated Bill Leeper was the originator of the dimensions.

http://www.benchrest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47921&highlight=extractor
 
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Donovan, If it ain't the same guy, they are brothers.
Jmckinnie, I believe he came from your country. I hope you don't have to deal with him.
Mr. Snyder you are correct.
Butch
 
Opening a Remington bolt from .222 to .308 size can be done in a lathe finishing with a tiny boring bar. Look at a factory bolt face, measure it and cut that into the bolt you're enlarging.

The old style extractors were easier to put in I think. Old meaning maybe 20 years ago? I don't remember for sure when the change happened. One is riveted the other kinda snaps in the groove.

You can also bush a larger bolt face down smaller but I've never seen that done in person. Shouldn't be too big a trick though.
 
henrya said:
Opening a Remington bolt from .222 to .308 size can be done in a lathe finishing with a tiny boring bar. Look at a factory bolt face, measure it and cut that into the bolt you're enlarging.

The old style extractors were easier to put in I think. Old meaning maybe 20 years ago? I don't remember for sure when the change happened. One is riveted the other kinda snaps in the groove.

You can also bush a larger bolt face down smaller but I've never seen that done in person. Shouldn't be too big a trick though.
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Pretty hard to do in a lathe. The offset cut for the extractor can not be done with the bolt held in the chuck... I hold a cutter ground correctly in the headstock and hold the bolt in a milling vice and move the vice up and down and in and out to what needs to be done...
 
dmoran65 said:
j mckinnie --

Would you believe/agree the user-name "P Kunda" as one of the alias names for Peter, PPP MMM, Con Cross.....

Bet we will see another soon .......
What a piece of work...........


Happy Shooting
Donovan Moran
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Well, the IP addresses for Con Cross and PPP MMM are real close. It's a bit different for P. Kunda, but not too different; probably take somebody like Steve Shelp or Wilbur to track it all down . . .
 
WSnyder said:
Butch I think originally on this board it came from Jay from Idaho but not too long ago I also think he said he had lost the info. I at one time had his info but I too cannot find it.

Just found semi-recent post by Jay and he indeed lost the dimensions but stated Bill Leeper was the originator of the dimensions.

http://www.benchrest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47921&highlight=extractor
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The original post that Bill made contained the following information. I have it saved in my documents...

Opening 700 bolt face to magnum…

I will describe from the viewpoint of looking straight on at the bolt face.

The bolt is set up with the lugs 8degrees clockwise from being vertical.
The ejector is on the bottom. Assuming the bolt face has been opened to .525 we'll use a .500 dia woodruff cutter ground to .112 thickness.

We'll start by moving to the right to contact then cut.050 deep.

Then up .060+.0125. Then left .120. (.050+.025+.045).

That should do it.


 
Or set the bolt up in an angle v-block or similar jig on a face plate and make an eccentric cut for the extractor with the tiny boring bar. Apparently there are several ways to skin this cat.
 
The post by Dennis with data for conversion to mag bolt face was for the RIVETTED extractor. Mine came out very good and has worked well. One thing I'd like to mention: the rivetted extractors have the hole for the rivet extruded for the head. That means that there is a cone of material on the outside of the extractor that fits in the matching hole in the bolt head. You must remove material from inside the bolt head to permit the extractor to be rivetted in place. I did this using a very small grinding tip in a Dremel. It must be done for the extractor to fit correctly.
A rivetless extractor would avoid the need for this step.

Thanks again to Bill Leeper for sharing his knowledge with us. He is a very clever machinist.
 
Mike Bryant

Thank you for your definitive assessment on the safety of the Mauser extractor. It is well received and appreciated.

longshooter
 
In a thread like this, there are a lot of suppositions, theories, and beliefs; there are also some facts. I'll put in my two cents just to round it out a bit.
I have seen enough Remington 700's which have fired a severe overload and protected the shooter completely to believe the 3 rings system works pretty well.
I have seen enough Remington 700's which repetedly required their extractor to extract stuck cases to believe the extractor design is a pretty good one.
I've altered Remington bolts both ways and, while I believe the use of the Remington extractor is safer, the use of the Sako-type is easier and I use these on my own rifles. On customers rifles, I do what I'm told (mostly).
Savage actions are also very safe because they use a very effective baffle behind the lugs and between the bolt head and body. The next bolt I make for a Remington will use this type of baffle behind the removable bolt head and a Sako-style extractor. I've also been thinking of using a mauser type extractor/baffle combo which would also fit beyween the head and body.
The Winchester 70 pushfeed extractor usually stays put because there isn't room for it to escape.
By the way, Mauser extractors do exit the receiver on occasion. So do extractors from Ruger 77's and Winchester M70's.
Pierced or blanked primers allow gas to escape into the bolt body. The flange at the forward end of the Remington 700 helps to contain the gas in the forward part of the bolt body from whence it is vented through a hole at the bottom of the bolt (left side when the bolt is closed). Ruger does the same thing but vents into the magazine well. This might be smarter than venting into the raceway.
Most controlled feed actions vent mostly into the left raceway in the event of a case failure. Exceptions are the Mauser 98's with the full C-ring, The japanese Arisaka with it's counterbored barrel, and the Kimber and Dakota actions which copy the Arisaka system somewhat.
The Winchester M70 (and the Springfield) vents into a coned breech which helps to direct the gas right down the left raceway and into the shooter's face. Clever. Later M70 actions used a large vent hole at the receiver ring and a little "gas block" in an attempt to improve gas handling.
I think the Remington design is a very good one as far as gas handling is concerned. It really works and does a great job of protecting the shooter. Regards, Bill.
 
Bill Leeper said:
In a thread like this, there are a lot of suppositions, theories, and beliefs; there are also some facts.

By the way, Mauser extractors do exit the receiver on occasion. So do extractors from Ruger 77's and Winchester M70's.


The Winchester M70 (and the Springfield) vents into a coned breech which helps to direct the gas right down the left raceway and into the shooter's face.

I think the Remington design is a very good one as far as gas handling is concerned. It really works and does a great job of protecting the shooter. Regards, Bill.
Click to expand...

Gentleman, would you believe, these facts are real and they represent plain and brutal truth.

Con
 
I think its a great design. The extractor works fine and the full circle lip has proven itself to contain basically all or most of a blown primer.

I do have a question though, is the barrel relief quite necessary or even helpful at all? I suspect its vital and can't see where it would hurt a thing and it does look capable of trapping little pieces of what used to be a primer.

I don't believe the "3 rings" actually seal in some sort of catastrophic event and if they did it would be very temporary if you know what I mean. Bending the bolt lip of a .223 would take serious pressure. Is this something Remington promotes or is it possibly from assumptions?

Since we are discussing other great safety designs, complimenting the Savage baffel, on a closed bolt, you can see a Savage's firing pin tip through the vent hole in the action. Go ahead, take a look :D
 
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Rob,
I don't think the 223 bolt head will expand to seal but I know the standard and magnum bolts will. I've seen them after they have done so. I made a collet to squeeze expanded bolt noses back down.
I once had a customer who shot a bear with a 180 grain Swift A-frame bullet which he loaded for the 308 Norma I made him. Only thin was, he fired it through his 7mm STW! Both rifles were rebarreled Remington Classics. He was unaware of any problem until he tried to open the bolt. Luckily, a second shot wasn't required! This bolt nose most definitely expanded to seal. The clearance was less than on a factory barrel ( 5 thou on the diameter) and the bolt head had swelled to seal. In a barrel with factory clearances, the nose still seals but must expand more to do so. In some cases, the nose may crack at the face of the bolt so the bolt is not salvagable.
By the way, I have always preferred minimal circumferential clearance on my Remington match barrels. I give 5 to 10 thou ahead of the bolt but fit the nose close on the circumference and lap them in. They seem to shoot OK. Many well qualified 'smiths disagree with this and there is every chance they are right but I stick with what has always worked for me. I have fitted a few using a teflon O-ring in the counterbore to support the head of the bolt. They shot well too but no better.
The Savage action vents gas out through that hole in case of a pierced primer and contains everything very well in the event of a major overload. They are very strong and safe. That they are also clunky and homely matters not as far as strength is concerned! Regards, Bill.
 
Butch Lambert said:
Donovan, If it ain't the same guy, they are brothers.
Jmckinnie, I believe he came from your country. I hope you don't have to deal with him.
Mr. Snyder you are correct.
Butch
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Butch I believe he originated somewhere behind the old iron curtain , now a new Australian. check the accented east euro spelling.
#1:eek:
 
Bill Leeper said:
I don't think the 223 bolt head will expand to seal but I know the standard and magnum bolts will. I've seen them after they have done so. In a barrel with factory clearances, the nose still seals but must expand more to do so. In some cases, the nose may crack at the face of the bolt so the bolt is not salvagable.

By the way, I have always preferred minimal circumferential clearance on my Remington match barrels. I give 5 to 10 thou ahead of the bolt but fit the nose close on the circumference and lap them in. They seem to shoot OK. ! Regards, Bill.
Click to expand...

Gentleman, would you believe Mr. Bill Leeper is not alone who saw and believes in those plain and brutal facts.

Gentleman would you believe, that what Mr. Bill Leeper is saying is nothing, but 99.99 % true.

Gentleman would you believe, that's hard to believe Mr. Bill Leeper wasn't attacked by any fiery gentleman.

Gentleman, in your technical mind, would you believe Mr. Bill Leeper is 99.99 % right?

Con
 
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