They feel our Pain

[RStiefel]

And all the way the union employees will become more and more unemployed because us poor ol common folks can't afford the expensive product high union wages create. I have nothing against unions doing what they were meant for but anymore they are more currupt and greedy than any company.

Hovis

They have always been corrupt. What big business isn't? I am employed in the construction industry. The common folks don't contribute to my wages and benefits in any way shape or form. Greed and corruption? How about WAL-MART and SAMS CLUB? How about the born and raised companies that have been here for decades and moved to China for the "big bucks". Come on up to the top of a high rise with me where the wind is blowing 40 mph and then tell me my wages are too high. Care to guess what the hourly wage would equate to on a CNC produced custom action or custom bullets?

 

[Big Al]

The really sad part of all of this is for one reason and one reason only. GOVERNMENT. Tax law changes in the 1950's started this whole mess into the mass problems and the decline of manufacturing in America.

It was for this single reason that we mark the slow decline of manufacturing in America. Driving manufacturing off shore was the results. Will American politicians admit to this? I doubt it as they have only been able to claim the fault lies with the American workers and Wall Street. The bank bail outs were for the purpose of freeing up credit, did that happen. Heck no! Banks have stopped betting on you. Now they are busy buying banks from the Chi-Coms.

Has anybody tried to get and auto loan in the last couple of months? No! Perhaps that might be the reason they can't sell cars?

 

[HovisKM]

They have always been corrupt. What big business isn't? I am employed in the construction industry. The common folks don't contribute to my wages and benefits in any way shape or form. Greed and corruption? How about WAL-MART and SAMS CLUB? How about the born and raised companies that have been here for decades and moved to China for the "big bucks". Come on up to the top of a high rise with me where the wind is blowing 40 mph and then tell me my wages are too high. Care to guess what the hourly wage would equate to on a CNC produced custom action or custom bullets?

I never said companies aren't corrupt but to put unions on a pedastal isn't a fair comparison. I'm no fan of Walmart or Sams. Was ok with them until the ol' man died but since then it's went straight down hill. My father retired from the construction industry, grew up around the unions and there's no union in the world more corrupt than the construction unions. I remember in Illinois, especially the closer you got to chicago, the union heads would come to the job site and fill out the ballots and the employees would sign them (absentie) and if they wouldn't, they didn't have a job. Also, when one of the forman's under my father wanted to complain about several of the union workers that were lazy but they had family in union positions of power, dad told him not to worry about it but he went and complained, never was heard or seen again. His wife and children never found out what happened.

Your job choice is yours but since you want to bring it up....maybe you would like to get paid what I have for the last 24yrs as a soldier, mention a 40mph wind....heck, come jump out of a plane with 150 lbs plus of gear, get shot at before and after your on the ground...all for the grand total of 480.00 a month before taxes back then in the late 80's. I'm not easily impressed. Oh, I did grow up building buildings and houses while I was in high school and not working on the hobbie farm my father had. My uncle and two cousins own construction companies. When I was stationed in Germany I worked part time for a tooling company called Lietz. I ran CNC Andi form grinders for carbide and high speed tooling. And also learned how to run manual machines like Weining's to grind tooling. When I wasn't doing that for them, I ran Haus turning centers and CNC mills. Made as much doing that part time as I did being a soldier.

And to say the common folks don't contribute to your wages.....better look again. Only end users (common folks) pay for everything. You might building something for a business, but who buys their product and if they sell to another company, who buys theirs? It always comes to the end user.

I have friend that are in the UAW, Pipefitters Union, Teachers Union, Teamsters, all of them have done more harm in the last 25 yrs than good to this nation and economy.

Hovis

 

[Waylan Kisor]

I'll have to disagree on product quality. Now most of the problems do not lay with the quality of the american worker. It is the cheap bearings, alternators and other items that the american auto industry uses. Right now, I have Ford, Chevy, Lincoln, German vehicles and have owned Jap's. The Jap's are the best made. Better quality hands down. I'm constantly having things fixed on everything else. The best american made vehicle I've had in the last ten years is the Vette I have, other than that...Junk. Do I like big...absolutely...my favorite vehicle I ever had was my Excursion diesel...and they don't make them anymore but I'm either gonna buy another one of those or a Toyota. I have a lot of friends employed by Toyota and the industry that supplies them here locally. Help a friend and get a heck of product to.

Hovis

For years my company furnished me an automobile, I drove about 60,000 mi. per year and had Taurus, Sable, Buick Century and Skylark, Intrepid, Pontiac 6000 and the new Impala, which proved the best of the lot. Great car. I now drive a Ford F150 and my wife tools around in a Town Car. Like them both. I think for the last several years the F-150 was the No. 1 selling vehnicle in the US, must be something good about it. This is my 4th. we drove the previous TC 185,000 miles and it was still working ok. Had to replace the front rotors once.

 

[RStiefel]

Hovis

Maybe we should go back to the good old days. Lets cut the wages of our soldiers back to the wages of yesteryear. Put slavery back into play in our country. Do away with minimum wage. End the public assistance programs. In other words..... turn ourselves into a China or North Korea where there is only one rule of law and people don't have the right to choose. I am not saying unions are the only way to go. I do however have a choice as to my way of making a living. When unions in our country were strong, our economy was the best in the world. The kind of quality we produced was in demand in every corner of the globe. Low wages and no benefits became the norm and quality went out the door. We found that places like China could produce the same products less the quality at an unreal price and the only thing that mattered was the huge profits that were reaped. The big three are no different. Union or not, they refused to produce what we want, but rather what they want us to buy. Saturn was our answer to the Japanese automobile. It has never been and probably never will be profitable. Put the money into producing the cars we want. Toyota is showing a huge loss this quarter and they are not signatory to the UAW. UPS is still going strong and they are signatory to the Teamsters. They compete quite favorably with FEDEX who is non union. The blame for companies going broke has to be levied somewhere. I suppose blaming the unions is as good a place as any, though the number of non union companies that fail are much, much greater than their union counter parts. Of all the large companies, such as GE, Westinghouse, RCA, etc. etc. etc. who have moved overseas to set up shop, not one of them is or has been union companies. Who do we blame for this???

 

[HovisKM]

For years my company furnished me an automobile, I drove about 60,000 mi. per year and had Taurus, Sable, Buick Century and Skylark, Intrepid, Pontiac 6000 and the new Impala, which proved the best of the lot. Great car. I now drive a Ford F150 and my wife tools around in a Town Car. Like them both. I think for the last several years the F-150 was the No. 1 selling vehnicle in the US, must be something good about it. This is my 4th. we drove the previous TC 185,000 miles and it was still working ok. Had to replace the front rotors once.

I've heard the Impala is a good vehicle and the Taurus used to be the best vehicle made. I had one that had over 300,000 miles on it when I passed it on. One sensor and one brake job is all I can remember. I wished everyone had the same experience as you with the F150. Not much luck around here. Here is what I have had:

1999 Ford explorer - new front axles, new rear axle, new transmission, both front hubs, cruise control, front seat (electrical), all within 50,000 miles

2003 Ford Explorer - new rearend, new transmission. both within 40,000 miles

2007 Ford Explorer - new front axle, new front hoghead, new heater core, turn signal controller, within 20,000miles

Ford Taurus - great vehicle

Ford Expedition - new air conditioning system, 10,000 miles

1998 Chevy 1500 - new transmission, 15,000 miles, new front hubs 20,000miles, new rear end 60,000 miles

2000 Lincoln LS - new transmission, 30,000 miles, Headlights fog (poor design), window regulators (4 within 50,000 miles)

1999 Corvette - air mass flow sensor, 20,000 miles, good vehicle

Cutlas (don't remember year), new cam pulley and cam, new rack and pinion steering system, new drivers seat, new ECM, all within 3800 miles

2003 Ford Excursion - new torque convertor (48,000 miles), good vehicle other than torque convertor and tranny.

Toyota's I've had - bullet proof, can't think of ever taking them back to dealer.

Hovis

 

[HovisKM]

Maybe we should go back to the good old days. Lets cut the wages of our soldiers back to the wages of yesteryear. Put slavery back into play in our country. Do away with minimum wage. End the public assistance programs. In other words..... turn ourselves into a China or North Korea where there is only one rule of law and people don't have the right to choose. I am not saying unions are the only way to go. I do however have a choice as to my way of making a living. When unions in our country were strong, our economy was the best in the world. The kind of quality we produced was in demand in every corner of the globe. Low wages and no benefits became the norm and quality went out the door. We found that places like China could produce the same products less the quality at an unreal price and the only thing that mattered was the huge profits that were reaped. The big three are no different. Union or not, they refused to produce what we want, but rather what they want us to buy. Saturn was our answer to the Japanese automobile. It has never been and probably never will be profitable. Put the money into producing the cars we want. Toyota is showing a huge loss this quarter and they are not signatory to the UAW. UPS is still going strong and they are signatory to the Teamsters. They compete quite favorably with FEDEX who is non union. The blame for companies going broke has to be levied somewhere. I suppose blaming the unions is as good a place as any, though the number of non union companies that fail are much, much greater than their union counter parts. Of all the large companies, such as GE, Westinghouse, RCA, etc. etc. etc. who have moved overseas to set up shop, not one of them is or has been union companies. Who do we blame for this???

Come on,... my brother worked for RCA/GE, they were union. Westinghouse had/has a large plant in Evansville...union. UPS has been in bankruptcy a couple of times. Unions are stronger than ever and as the stronger they got, the worse our economy got and the more jobs went overseas. Toyota has shown the first loss in a quarter in 40yrs....when was the last time the big three showed a profit for a whole year or even the last time they have showed a profit in a quarter.

Hovis

 

[Waylan Kisor]

RStiefel

Me thinks that before GE closed all it US plants they were union.There were two plants within 40 miles of where I live and both were union, they closed because of strikes...

 

[Waylan Kisor]

Hovis

you are too rough on them, take your foot off the gas. You are not rough on your guns course they are American made. Enjoyed meeting you at Rachels, the boys and I will be there in April, I hope...

 

[HovisKM]

you are too rough on them, take your foot off the gas. You are not rough on your guns course they are American made. Enjoyed meeting you at Rachels, the boys and I will be there in April, I hope...

The wife and I are planning on being there. I like Alabama, stationed there once and really like it. My wife loves the accent. Heck...the only thing I drive the least bit hard is the Vette and it held up....but the wife drives it now. I get to look at it in the garage now, that's about it.

Merry Christmas to all....God Bless....And let's all pray for a economic recovery.

Hovis

 

[ArtinNC]

don't lay so much blame on the unions. The companies signed off on each and every one of the union contracts. The unions have a place in america and always will as long as there is greed in corporate america. If it weren't for the unions we would all be working for mcpay of $7.00 an hour.
Teamster member: Jim askren

aman!!!!!!!!

 

[RStiefel]

Does Toyota

Come on,... my brother worked for RCA/GE, they were union. Westinghouse had/has a large plant in Evansville...union. UPS has been in bankruptcy a couple of times. Unions are stronger than ever and as the stronger they got, the worse our economy got and the more jobs went overseas. Toyota has shown the first loss in a quarter in 40yrs....when was the last time the big three showed a profit for a whole year or even the last time they have showed a profit in a quarter.

Hovis

pay out Billions of dollars each year in endorsement contracts to sports figures and actors? How about the CEOs for Toyota? All 7 made less money combined than Rick Wagoner made in 2007. They also produce the vehicles we want. The big 3 produce what they want us to drive. Do we really need to make so many different lines that don't sell? And just which union do you think GE or RCA was signatory to? The only plants they have in the US are distribution plants. UPS, whether or not they went into bankruptcy is thriving and have not asked the tax payers to bail them out. Labor is the smallest of the expenses a company has to pay out. Taxes, compliance with the EPA and bad business decisions is the driving force behind the demise of the big 3. If they weren't making money, they couldn't afford to buy out the numerous makers in other countries. GM was making enough money that they could afford to shore up GMAC with hundreds of million of dollars to support the mortgage investment portion of that chain. It isn't the money that has created this mess, but rather the lack of good business practice. When the big 3 negotiated the crazy lifetime benefits, they did so of their own free will. If you don't produce what people want, you are certainly going to fail. Why not blame the unions for the failure of the lending institutions and insurance companies also? How about our Senators? Life time retirement at the same wages and benefits they were paid while in office and they don't belong to a union. That is something the taxpayers do pay for. If you don't want to help pay the unions wages, don't buy American made cars and trucks. Send your money to other countries for their goods and and you will have no reason to blame the unions. Use only FEDEX and UPS will soon be out of business. Then you can rest assured you'll pay a substantial amount of money for shipping. Don't buy union and you'll have no reason to complain. I use AVET T-REX reels for my shark fishing. AVET is a union company. Their reels sell for the same price as a PENN of the same size. PENN is not a union company. How can they stay in business when they are paying so much more for wages and benefits? One does as one chooses. I choose to support American companies whether union or non union. I am paying no more for a union made vehicle than a Japanese made vehicle. I have no desire to help support countries who treat their employees as slaves and suppress their freedoms.

 

[RStiefel]

Hovis

I stand corrected. GE was union and made profits of 10 Billion dollars in 2003. They have since moved to China and India realizing profits of 50 Billion dollars in 2007. I suppose 10 Billion dollars isn't enough of a profit. I had to review my book written by Jack Welch. I apologize.

 

[HovisKM]

pay out Billions of dollars each year in endorsement contracts to sports figures and actors? How about the CEOs for Toyota? All 7 made less money combined than Rick Wagoner made in 2007. They also produce the vehicles we want. The big 3 produce what they want us to drive. Do we really need to make so many different lines that don't sell? And just which union do you think GE or RCA was signatory to? The only plants they have in the US are distribution plants. UPS, whether or not they went into bankruptcy is thriving and have not asked the tax payers to bail them out. Labor is the smallest of the expenses a company has to pay out. Taxes, compliance with the EPA and bad business decisions is the driving force behind the demise of the big 3. If they weren't making money, they couldn't afford to buy out the numerous makers in other countries. GM was making enough money that they could afford to shore up GMAC with hundreds of million of dollars to support the mortgage investment portion of that chain. It isn't the money that has created this mess, but rather the lack of good business practice. When the big 3 negotiated the crazy lifetime benefits, they did so of their own free will. If you don't produce what people want, you are certainly going to fail. Why not blame the unions for the failure of the lending institutions and insurance companies also? How about our Senators? Life time retirement at the same wages and benefits they were paid while in office and they don't belong to a union. That is something the taxpayers do pay for. If you don't want to help pay the unions wages, don't buy American made cars and trucks. Send your money to other countries for their goods and and you will have no reason to blame the unions. Use only FEDEX and UPS will soon be out of business. Then you can rest assured you'll pay a substantial amount of money for shipping. Don't buy union and you'll have no reason to complain. I use AVET T-REX reels for my shark fishing. AVET is a union company. Their reels sell for the same price as a PENN of the same size. PENN is not a union company. How can they stay in business when they are paying so much more for wages and benefits? One does as one chooses. I choose to support American companies whether union or non union. I am paying no more for a union made vehicle than a Japanese made vehicle. I have no desire to help support countries who treat their employees as slaves and suppress their freedoms.

I agree with a lot of what you have said. But UPS is not thriving. It's stock is worth 20+ dollars a share less than a year ago. Sure auto makers signed the agreements but the unions did basically hold a gun to their heads with the threat of strikes. Are the unions and most companies responsible for the enconomic woes...partially but not completely. Our wonderful democratic party and it's passage of bank deregulation put the final knife into back in 1993. I wonder who most union workers vote for....hummm. Anyway, to close to christmas for this....let's all pray and try to make this country better and heal it's problems.

Merry Christmas
Hovis

 

[Don]

UPS has been in bankruptcy a couple of times.

Hovis

News to me, please cite sources..............................Don

 

[Jim Askren]

It's all about a living wage

I am going to step out of this thread. We have shared our thoughts and vented our frustrations. But have come to no conclusions nor solved any of the current economic problems.
I will give one last thought about unions. I went to work for a union company 32 years ago and have not regretted it. I was right out of school and about to be married. I wanted the American dream just like everyone else. When I looked at the job market in my area the union jobs payed the best and had the best beneifits far and away for an unskilled laborer. My Teamster job has allowed me to provide for my family of five for the most part comfortably.
And build a decent retirement fund that I look forward to enjoying in the future. I could not have accomplished this in my area with a nonunion company.
Are all unions good. Probably not. Are all unions bad. Definately not. Bottom line: I chose union membership for my family. Proud Teamster with no regrets. Jim Askren

 

[OMJ]

Union Bashing

Why all the Union bashing? no-one seams to condem the CEO's that made make MILLIONS in bonus's why why? What wrong with some of you people?
Shouldn't people make a decent wage ??????

 

[tim]

I stand corrected. GE was union and made profits of 10 Billion dollars in 2003. They have since moved to China and India realizing profits of 50 Billion dollars in 2007. I suppose 10 Billion dollars isn't enough of a profit. I had to review my book written by Jack Welch. I apologize.

You'd better re-read it a few more times because the stuff you quote and the inferences you draw are absolute BS, yet you go on and on with economic misquotes & misinformation, is there no end?

 

[Twud]

Decent Wage

Why all the Union bashing? no-one seams to condem the CEO's that made make MILLIONS in bonus's why why? What wrong with some of you people?
Shouldn't people make a decent wage ??????

I think UAW workers should make $100/hour & benefits. They could then live high on the hog. They would be the only ones who could afford to buy their products, but so what if they'd be out of work in a couple years.
They don't seem to grasp the fact that they are competing in a global market.
If I had to pay my people UAW wages I'd be out of business in 6 months.

 

[Montana Pete]

In my opinion, Detroit hasn't turned out anything of quality since 1972.

Have to disagree. I have an 11 year old Mercury Villager with no rust, and a good service record. Few repairs ever.

I have a 5 year old Chrysler 300. The only problem was a stuck 6-CD changer, which had to be traded out for a cost of $300. It still looks great and runs great. It came with an extended warranty of 7 yrs or 70,000 miles. I have never had a need to invoke the extended part of the warranty.

-----------

One guy talked about a "starving salesman" at a new car lot. I took my car in for service recently, and the dealership was like a ghost town. Very few employees evident. The service department was even understaffed -- down to a skeleton crew. The employees who WERE on duty seemed very glum and just going through the motions.

Since this dealership sold me the Chrysler described above, I did feel sorry for them. In my judgment, they have some good products. Somehow we have "psyched" ourselves against American cars.

It's a darn shame.