The dreaded 2 and 1................
- Thread starter CYanchycki
- Start date
CYanchycki
Club Coordinator
Al, Mr. Smiley face as that rifle is called, gets his share of attention when he crosses the border. He is prety laid back and just smiles where ever he travels.
Y'know, we learned in grade school that 'smiles' is the longest word in the English language.....
al
As I look at your photos, I see that your forearm stop is out quite a ways. Do you have enough weight in the butt so the rifle isn't "light" on the rear bag?
* * *
On to opinion: I think you shoot groups, and not score, right? I've always found that a bag setup for score where you have to move the rife (more than one bull) to be much fussier. Several posts with Al Nyhus on this topic you could look at.
But if it's group, I'd look elsewhere. As Wilbur says so often, a *good* rifle ignores this sort of issue. If you have another barrel for the rifle, and if it too shows ho-hum performance, I'd first suspect the striker assembly, which includes everything -- shroud, sear fore & aft, etc., etc. But as Wayne Campbell has been through that, I'd rule that out & things get pretty subtle. You found issues with the bolt & stock. Grasping at straws, how about the trigger & stock? Is the barrel tight enough?
Try some really different things. If you're shooting a high-ogive bullet, try a Fowler. Try jumping each kind of bullet .020 or so.
Instead of N-133, try something like 24-25 grains of H-4198. With both powders, try a hot primer, like a CCI mag, and a very mild primer, like a Wolf. If, with all these changes you're still 2&1 (or just ho-hum performance), I'd think you could rule out ammunition.
At which point (different barrel, ammunition), and assuming you've tried another rest set up, & different scope, I'd sell the rifle to a varmint hunter, because the odds are you'll never find the problem.
FWIW -- Guessing at what might be the problem is a whole lot less likely to find it than just going out & doing the work.
* * *
On to opinion: I think you shoot groups, and not score, right? I've always found that a bag setup for score where you have to move the rife (more than one bull) to be much fussier. Several posts with Al Nyhus on this topic you could look at.
But if it's group, I'd look elsewhere. As Wilbur says so often, a *good* rifle ignores this sort of issue. If you have another barrel for the rifle, and if it too shows ho-hum performance, I'd first suspect the striker assembly, which includes everything -- shroud, sear fore & aft, etc., etc. But as Wayne Campbell has been through that, I'd rule that out & things get pretty subtle. You found issues with the bolt & stock. Grasping at straws, how about the trigger & stock? Is the barrel tight enough?
Try some really different things. If you're shooting a high-ogive bullet, try a Fowler. Try jumping each kind of bullet .020 or so.
Instead of N-133, try something like 24-25 grains of H-4198. With both powders, try a hot primer, like a CCI mag, and a very mild primer, like a Wolf. If, with all these changes you're still 2&1 (or just ho-hum performance), I'd think you could rule out ammunition.
At which point (different barrel, ammunition), and assuming you've tried another rest set up, & different scope, I'd sell the rifle to a varmint hunter, because the odds are you'll never find the problem.
FWIW -- Guessing at what might be the problem is a whole lot less likely to find it than just going out & doing the work.
CYanchycki
Club Coordinator
Just wanted to say thanks for some of the ideas passed along to try out. I have also received PM's as well as private e-mails.
The MOST OBVIOUS points:
Get that keel off of the bags. The strip between the ears is pretty hard that the keel is riding on. No real give at all. Okay real HARD. If I am going to shoot this Protector bag I was advised to maybe fill the ears more so the rifle creates its own track to ride in. Better yet I am going to set it aside for now and go back to the Edgewood Frog (Boob) bag. It is a single stitch bag so it is pretty easy to manipulate where the stock will ride.
Move the fore end stop back. Maybe to much overhang making it muzzle heavy. I moved it back so there is NO MORE than 1" overhang beyond the bag.
I will start with that. If it works wonderful, if not, slow them loads down stepping into a lower node or possibly a tad up(just a tad) as may be on the edge of a node allready. If no luck with that then I will remove the tuner.
All else fails if I make the Nationals and get there soon enough maybe one of you guys can have a go at it......
I have another rifle that appears to be working so I am not without.
Later
Calvin
The MOST OBVIOUS points:
Get that keel off of the bags. The strip between the ears is pretty hard that the keel is riding on. No real give at all. Okay real HARD. If I am going to shoot this Protector bag I was advised to maybe fill the ears more so the rifle creates its own track to ride in. Better yet I am going to set it aside for now and go back to the Edgewood Frog (Boob) bag. It is a single stitch bag so it is pretty easy to manipulate where the stock will ride.
Move the fore end stop back. Maybe to much overhang making it muzzle heavy. I moved it back so there is NO MORE than 1" overhang beyond the bag.
I will start with that. If it works wonderful, if not, slow them loads down stepping into a lower node or possibly a tad up(just a tad) as may be on the edge of a node allready. If no luck with that then I will remove the tuner.
All else fails if I make the Nationals and get there soon enough maybe one of you guys can have a go at it......
I have another rifle that appears to be working so I am not without.
Later
Calvin
Boyd Allen
Active member
Isn't the Frog a relatively soft bag, constructed for bag squeezers? I wonder about it suitability for your shooting style. (which I have inferred from your rest selection)
Calvin,
About the bag.. Alot of people say that the stock shouldn´t bottom out, ride on the stitching, etc. That could be true, but I have found the opposite to be true for me. To get good tracking, the rear bag need to be firm enough so that it doesn´t settle from the recoil. If you have the stock riding up on the ears, the ears need to be super hard to avoid having the crosshair creeping up from shot to shot. I think that it doesn´t matter much if the rifle bottoms out on the ears or on the flat between the ears, as long as the stock is suported horizontaly.
Play around some with the filling, my goal is to have as little sand in the bag as possible, but still having good tracking.
//Peter
About the bag.. Alot of people say that the stock shouldn´t bottom out, ride on the stitching, etc. That could be true, but I have found the opposite to be true for me. To get good tracking, the rear bag need to be firm enough so that it doesn´t settle from the recoil. If you have the stock riding up on the ears, the ears need to be super hard to avoid having the crosshair creeping up from shot to shot. I think that it doesn´t matter much if the rifle bottoms out on the ears or on the flat between the ears, as long as the stock is suported horizontaly.
Play around some with the filling, my goal is to have as little sand in the bag as possible, but still having good tracking.
//Peter
Jerry Dailey
Southron
I dont think its the bags!
Unless they are bad out of line or your bumping the rear with your chest when you shoot or clamp down way too tight on the front. As already been stated, adjust the charge and or bullet seating depth. If that dont work try another bullet. I really hate to inform you of this but it usually takes another barrel to fix my problem. When I was at Tony school, I kept getting 4&1 with an almost new barrel. We tried the above to no avail. He was right when he told me that that happens and I could just waste my time or suck it up and get another barrel.
Unless they are bad out of line or your bumping the rear with your chest when you shoot or clamp down way too tight on the front. As already been stated, adjust the charge and or bullet seating depth. If that dont work try another bullet. I really hate to inform you of this but it usually takes another barrel to fix my problem. When I was at Tony school, I kept getting 4&1 with an almost new barrel. We tried the above to no avail. He was right when he told me that that happens and I could just waste my time or suck it up and get another barrel.
CYanchycki
Club Coordinator
Okay now you guys are really starting to get me
So many things to try. Remember fellas many of you have been at this game WAY LONGER than I have and MOST of you have had someone to fall back on. Someone who may have actually been in the winners circle on many occasions.
Again I appreciate all the ideas and will work at this thing slowly trying to figure this out.
I was hoping to maybe get out this weekend but the temps have decided to drop down so it will not be for a while.
So many things to try. Remember fellas many of you have been at this game WAY LONGER than I have and MOST of you have had someone to fall back on. Someone who may have actually been in the winners circle on many occasions.
Again I appreciate all the ideas and will work at this thing slowly trying to figure this out.
I was hoping to maybe get out this weekend but the temps have decided to drop down so it will not be for a while.
Jerry Dailey
Southron
Calvin, I thought of something else
I too use a Seb rest and have gone to the Seb NEO now. I had an issue with (probally not your problem) with unconciousley jerking the joy stick as I fired. I tightened up on the adjustments to where I still had smooth travel (slightly more than enough to hold the rifle up if I let go of the stick) and took a better rest with my forearm on the bench and that fixed it.
I too use a Seb rest and have gone to the Seb NEO now. I had an issue with (probally not your problem) with unconciousley jerking the joy stick as I fired. I tightened up on the adjustments to where I still had smooth travel (slightly more than enough to hold the rifle up if I let go of the stick) and took a better rest with my forearm on the bench and that fixed it.
CYanchycki
Club Coordinator
Jerry it sounds as if you have your rest set up similar to mine. If I lift the stick up as high as it will go(rifle in the rest and rear bag) it will drop drop down on its own maybe 1/3 of the way and then hold. I set mine up so theknob of the handle is JUST off ofthe bench top when on the sighter bulls.
A little off topic but the SMOOTHEST SEB I have ever felt is Robert Seamann out of Alberta. He has that sucker dialed right in. I believe he may have disassembled it to get it that way but boy oh boy........ it is almost as good as afine woman in silk lingere....
Boyd, in regards to the frog bag, it is a soft leather but if you fill the CRAP out of it, it stiffens up pretty good.
The bag I want and I think is no longer available is what I believe is the Gary Sinclair bag. About half the size of the Big Edgewood loaf bag. It has the hump towards the front so the ears are at the back and has a real good angle to the ears to fit the stock. If I could get one of those I would be in heaven. I was able to borrow one for part of a match but my buddy Mr. Jeff Wardlow would NOT sell it to me.
Ah what the hey.....
I think I will make the trip to Phoenix just to look PERTY at the line (not that I am) and feed someone some GOOD Canadian 40 Creek Whiskey...... LOL
Calvin
A little off topic but the SMOOTHEST SEB I have ever felt is Robert Seamann out of Alberta. He has that sucker dialed right in. I believe he may have disassembled it to get it that way but boy oh boy........ it is almost as good as afine woman in silk lingere....
Boyd, in regards to the frog bag, it is a soft leather but if you fill the CRAP out of it, it stiffens up pretty good.
The bag I want and I think is no longer available is what I believe is the Gary Sinclair bag. About half the size of the Big Edgewood loaf bag. It has the hump towards the front so the ears are at the back and has a real good angle to the ears to fit the stock. If I could get one of those I would be in heaven. I was able to borrow one for part of a match but my buddy Mr. Jeff Wardlow would NOT sell it to me.
Ah what the hey.....
I think I will make the trip to Phoenix just to look PERTY at the line (not that I am) and feed someone some GOOD Canadian 40 Creek Whiskey...... LOL
Calvin
J
Jefferson
Guest
OK if you are now calling me your buddy I will sell a brand new gary sinclair model and deliver it to calgary whenever you come or mail it to you without and, I will dig up my invoice and see what i paid you may even have a choice of colors as I have more than one but only the one for sale, (as per usual)
Jefferson
Jefferson
Calvin
I soak my leather bags for two days in clothing starch then leave the gun in the hot California sun so it shrinks to a perfect fit.My buttstocks ride on the stitching as you can see in the pictures.I actually cut the ears apart to spread them out further then sewn them onto a piece of leather and shoe goo them back onto the top of the bag.
If the gun riding on something firm ruined accuracy a railgun wouldn't shoot for beans nor would a 22 rimfire which rides on delrin.
If your shots are flying out of the group as mentioned elsewhere they would all fly out of the group unless something is changing on you.
Run my test and you will fix your problem.
Lynn
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Calvin: The bottom of the stock riding on the 'flat' between the ear can cause tossed shots depending on the setup.
Variables include the angle of the bottom of the butt (the keel), the angle of the 'flat' on the rear bag, how those two angles match, how the front bag fits the bottom of the stock (the angular interface), how high the front rest is, etc. How you hold the gun also figures into this...how much the gun moves to the rear when fired.
When I was working hard on my 6PPC last season, I set the bags and front rest up the way many Group shooters do. And I had a good percentage of those 'high' first shots when going from the sighter to the record. I changed everything back to the way I have it for Score shooting. The 'popped' shots went away and overall vertical was reduced in the groups.
For what it's worth.... -Al
Variables include the angle of the bottom of the butt (the keel), the angle of the 'flat' on the rear bag, how those two angles match, how the front bag fits the bottom of the stock (the angular interface), how high the front rest is, etc. How you hold the gun also figures into this...how much the gun moves to the rear when fired.
When I was working hard on my 6PPC last season, I set the bags and front rest up the way many Group shooters do. And I had a good percentage of those 'high' first shots when going from the sighter to the record. I changed everything back to the way I have it for Score shooting. The 'popped' shots went away and overall vertical was reduced in the groups.
For what it's worth.... -Al
Boyd Allen
Active member
Al,
Would you please describe the two setups, and their differences.
Boyd
Would you please describe the two setups, and their differences.
Boyd
Jerry Dailey
Southron
Its real strange -------
But I had the oposite effect. My first shot would very often go high and sometimes a tad left. I corrected by shooting my first record shot just over the target frame but into the burm. When I came back down, the first shot then went where it should. I later bought a bumble bag with short ears and !/2" between the ears. Now the but of my rifle rested on the flat. Either that corrected the problem or it fixed itself. Go figure.
But I had the oposite effect. My first shot would very often go high and sometimes a tad left. I corrected by shooting my first record shot just over the target frame but into the burm. When I came back down, the first shot then went where it should. I later bought a bumble bag with short ears and !/2" between the ears. Now the but of my rifle rested on the flat. Either that corrected the problem or it fixed itself. Go figure.
When you go from the sighter(s) to the record on a Group target, the angle at which the keel of the butt contacts the rear bag changes. With certain setups, this may cause a popped first shot...it may go high. If subsequent shots trend lower, it's likely due to the rear bag now being a bit more settled from the first shot. I didn't spend a lot of time chasing the why's, just went back to a proven setup that didn't do this.
And for every shooter that has issues with this, others have success. It just depends on the whole combination. -Al
Boyd, there's so much involved I wouldn't know where to begin.
But I will say this: Adding more layers of complexity can at times just compound the problems. There's much to be said for a basic front rest, a not-to-hard front bag and a decent not-to-hard single stitch rear bag with a flat bottom. They're not fast, not sexy, don't have a Kenworth shift lever stickin' out from 'em, no optional cigar lighter, speed loaders or MP3 player interface.
But they work.....
Good shootin'. -Al