Slugging new barrel blanks?

pablo said:
Rick, every competitive shooter I know will tell you they can feel variations in the bore of a rifle they're cleaning with a rod and a patch. I know I can! I can also see variations in the lands with a bore scope on many barrels I own and I'm not superman. Most of these barrels shoot fine, some with obvious flaws will outshoot some with no apparent flaws, go figure. I don't think the top shelf barrel companies run around lying or bullting us about the quality they try to attain but sometimes mistakes happen and they get missed. Never forget they're in business and have to make a profit like all the rest of the businesses out there.
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While I won't take issue with your conclusion, you will not convince me that what you feel when pushing a cotton patch through a bore is a variation in bore diameter. You can choose to believe what you like, but the idea that you can detect a variation of .001 or .002 pushing a cotton patch through a bore is simply not believable. Seeing problems with a borescope is another issue altogether, but that's not what we are talking about. Dave Tooley says that in nearly 6,000 Bartlein barrels (Pretty sure that was the barrel maker), he's never had a bad one. BTW- I know a little about business and you don't keep customers by bull$hi!!g them about the quality of a product. I'll agree that once in a great while a mistake might get out the door, but I'm unconvinced that pushing a .22 LR bullet through a hand lapped bore will cause it to show up.

As I said, I do not have a dog in this fight. I just buy barrels and shoot them. I wanted to see what folks had to say and now I've seen that. We can choose to disagree.

Rick
 
We borescope and airgauge every barrel before chambering. We check both groove and land dimensions too .0001" every inch. We also check after any contouring to look for any expansion. We had a problem with M14 barrels getting larger in diameter after turning gas cylinder area.
 
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I shoot choked barrels in the sport of BPCR Silhoutte. both Badger and RKS, and you can definitely feel the choke with a tightly fitting jag and patch. I don't think the choke is 0.001". Could be a lot less.

Greyfox said:
While I won't take issue with your conclusion, you will not convince me that what you feel when pushing a cotton patch through a bore is a variation in bore diameter. You can choose to believe what you like, but the idea that you can detect a variation of .001 or .002 pushing a cotton patch through a bore is simply not believable. Seeing problems with a borescope is another issue altogether, but that's not what we are talking about. Dave Tooley says that in nearly 6,000 Bartlein barrels (Pretty sure that was the barrel maker), he's never had a bad one. BTW- I know a little about business and you don't keep customers by bull$hi!!g them about the quality of a product. I'll agree that once in a great while a mistake might get out the door, but I'm unconvinced that pushing a .22 LR bullet through a hand lapped bore will cause it to show up.

As I said, I do not have a dog in this fight. I just buy barrels and shoot them. I wanted to see what folks had to say and now I've seen that. We can choose to disagree.

Rick
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MilGunsmith said:
We borescope and airgauge every barrel before chambering. We check both groove and land dimensions too .0001" every inch. We also check after any contouring to look for any expansion. We had a problem with M14 barrels getting larger in diameter after turning gas cylinder area.
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Are these Buttoned Rifled Barrels or Cut Rifled Barrels?
 
HiWall said:
I shoot choked barrels in the sport of BPCR Silhoutte. both Badger and RKS, and you can definitely feel the choke with a tightly fitting jag and patch. I don't think the choke is 0.001". Could be a lot less.
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Doug Shilen taper lapped me a couple of barrels. Said it took a lot of extra time. One was 0.001" taper and one was 0.0005" also got 2 straight bore barrels in that same order. I could feel the tapers when slugging. I could not tell any difference in accuracy.

When holding a barrel in a 4 bolt barrel vise for slugging I can feel the vise.




.
 
Greyfox said:
I've already said that I don't have a dog in this fight and just asked for research reasons. That beings said, I'm pretty skeptical about claims that tight and loose spots can be felt by a human arm pushing a dead soft lead slug much less a 22lr bullet or buckshot. The air gauges are capable of detecting extremely small changes and I can't see a quality barrel maker sending out barrels that they know are inferior. As the slug obderates and lubricant gets thin I can see the feel being different, but not due to changes in the bore size. I can see the maker being willing to take barrels back and replacing rather than making a customer mad. I suspect they inspect a returned barrel and put it back on the shelf. I am aware of one instance where a barrel was returned by a person who didn't even purchase it directly from the maker. After slugging he insisted that is was "bad". The maker swapped it out and inspected on return finding it perfect. I suspect this is often the case. I am going to say that I will not allow anyone to slug a hand lapped custom barrel of mine, much less pay them for it. But that's just me and what do I know?

Rick
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I discussed the usefulness of slugging with one of the top barrel makers and he confirmed that slugging, or in my friend's case, casting a lap for the same purpose can show up things that would not otherwise be detected. There is one other thing that I would like to point out about this. You seem to have a pretty high opinion of your inexperienced thought as compared with the experience of people who have actually done what you asked about. IMO theory is always trumped by experience. My friend routinely casts laps so that he can evaluate both finished barrels that a customer brings to him as well as new, unchambered barrels. He has sent several problem barrels, from top manufacturers, back for replacement, and he has been able to successfully diagnose problems with customers' rifles the same way. Even if a barrel is properly made as to uniformity, if it is a little too large or small there can be problems. He builds custom hunting rifles for people who will be using solid bullets that do not slug up or swage down like lead core bullets. For those applications having a good match between groove, and bullet diameters has proven to be important. Even with lead core bullets, in applications where a lot of shots are fired between cleanings, barrels that are too tight or have excess choke will tend to copper foul sooner than those that have more suitable dimensions.
 
Boyd Allen said:
I discussed the usefulness of slugging with one of the top barrel makers and he confirmed that slugging, or in my friend's case, casting a lap for the same purpose can show up things that would not otherwise be detected. There is one other thing that I would like to point out about this. You seem to have a pretty high opinion of your inexperienced thought as compared with the experience of people who have actually done what you asked about. IMO theory is always trumped by experience. My friend routinely casts laps so that he can evaluate both finished barrels that a customer brings to him as well as new, unchambered barrels. He has sent several problem barrels, from top manufacturers, back for replacement, and he has been able to successfully diagnose problems with customers' rifles the same way. Even if a barrel is properly made as to uniformity, if it is a little too large or small there can be problems. He builds custom hunting rifles for people who will be using solid bullets that do not slug up or swage down like lead core bullets. For those applications having a good match between groove, and bullet diameters has proven to be important. Even with lead core bullets, in applications where a lot of shots are fired between cleanings, barrels that are too tight or have excess choke will tend to copper foul sooner than those that have more suitable dimensions.
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I think we have a misunderstanding here and it's probably my fault for not making myself clear. I have only expressed my opinion based on what I have been told by one barrel maker and by what I have read on this subject in past threads. I thought I made it clear that I have no personal experience in this matter. What I HAVE seen in this thread as well as one on Accurate Shooter is what a number of shooters seem to BELIEVE as an article of faith. What I have attempted to say is that no one has offered any proof other than what they think they can FEEL and what they BELIEVE. This is not a religious experience. I frankly don't care much about folks belief system as it applies to rifle barrels. I have talked with a couple of gunsmiths. One tried to convince me that what he could feel what more accurate than an air gauge. He is a pretty good friend and I really frustrated him because he couldn't convince me. The other is a fairly well know benchrest gunsmith who said he would never allow anyone to slug one of his custom blanks. So far, no one, shooter, gunsmith or machinist has replied to this thread with proof that a human's arm can detect that sophisticated measuring devices apparently can't. Maybe I'm being unreasonable. Is asking for quantifiable proof too much to ask?

Rick
 
Boyd Allen said:
I discussed the usefulness of slugging with one of the top barrel makers and he confirmed that slugging, or in my friend's case, casting a lap for the same purpose can show up things that would not otherwise be detected. There is one other thing that I would like to point out about this. You seem to have a pretty high opinion of your inexperienced thought as compared with the experience of people who have actually done what you asked about. IMO theory is always trumped by experience. My friend routinely casts laps so that he can evaluate both finished barrels that a customer brings to him as well as new, unchambered barrels. He has sent several problem barrels, from top manufacturers, back for replacement, and he has been able to successfully diagnose problems with customers' rifles the same way. Even if a barrel is properly made as to uniformity, if it is a little too large or small there can be problems. He builds custom hunting rifles for people who will be using solid bullets that do not slug up or swage down like lead core bullets. For those applications having a good match between groove, and bullet diameters has proven to be important. Even with lead core bullets, in applications where a lot of shots are fired between cleanings, barrels that are too tight or have excess choke will tend to copper foul sooner than those that have more suitable dimensions.
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So, Mr Allen, after sending my initial reply and reading your post several times, I have a question. Are you telling me that custom barrel makers are sending out so many inferior barrels that slugging each new barrel blank is necessary and the cost to the shooter/hunter is justified to confirm that the barrel is not inferior and will not shoot? Based on your experience with your friend and this barrel maker can you suggest what % of new custom barrel blanks would/should be considered "bad"?

Rick
 
Greyfox said:
I think we have a misunderstanding here and it's probably my fault for not making myself clear. I have only expressed my opinion based on what I have been told by one barrel maker and by what I have read on this subject in past threads. I thought I made it clear that I have no personal experience in this matter. What I HAVE seen in this thread as well as one on Accurate Shooter is what a number of shooters seem to BELIEVE as an article of faith. What I have attempted to say is that no one has offered any proof other than what they think they can FEEL and what they BELIEVE. This is not a religious experience. I frankly don't care much about folks belief system as it applies to rifle barrels. I have talked with a couple of gunsmiths. One tried to convince me that what he could feel what more accurate than an air gauge. He is a pretty good friend and I really frustrated him because he couldn't convince me. The other is a fairly well know benchrest gunsmith who said he would never allow anyone to slug one of his custom blanks. So far, no one, shooter, gunsmith or machinist has replied to this thread with proof that a human's arm can detect that sophisticated measuring devices apparently can't. Maybe I'm being unreasonable. Is asking for quantifiable proof too much to ask?

Rick
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Yes. It would take an enormous effort to prove this. There are a lot of things we do that cannot be proven emphatically. You don't believe it don't do it. It is not all send the barrel back. When I was being schooled in slugging one of my barrels had a loose spot 11/2 inches from the muzzle. So we cut off 2 instead of 1 inch. This was with a Smith that slugs every barrel he chambers as part of his process. Took about 15 minutes. I could feel it myself. Did it make a difference? Who knows but it did in my mind and that is what counts. Take a chill pill. Good luck.
 
Greyfox said:
I think we have a misunderstanding here and it's probably my fault for not making myself clear. I have only expressed my opinion based on what I have been told by one barrel maker and by what I have read on this subject in past threads. I thought I made it clear that I have no personal experience in this matter. What I HAVE seen in this thread as well as one on Accurate Shooter is what a number of shooters seem to BELIEVE as an article of faith. What I have attempted to say is that no one has offered any proof other than what they think they can FEEL and what they BELIEVE. This is not a religious experience. I frankly don't care much about folks belief system as it applies to rifle barrels. I have talked with a couple of gunsmiths. One tried to convince me that what he could feel what more accurate than an air gauge. He is a pretty good friend and I really frustrated him because he couldn't convince me. The other is a fairly well know benchrest gunsmith who said he would never allow anyone to slug one of his custom blanks. So far, no one, shooter, gunsmith or machinist has replied to this thread with proof that a human's arm can detect that sophisticated measuring devices apparently can't. Maybe I'm being unreasonable. Is asking for quantifiable proof too much to ask?

Rick
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Define quantify. Will it be enough to hold it in your hand, for yourself? You mentioned .001-.002" earlier. That much will stop the slug and you'll need a hammer to drive it through. Since the word of a "friend" with actual experience doesn't seem to be enough for you, I've dug up a couple of cut offs and slugs...just for you.
I do consider you a friend, but when a friend calls you privately to politely and respectfully tell you that he's done this hundreds of times and that your inexperienced opinion is wrong...you should probably listen to him. That's MY opinion.

Yes, it's quantifiable but that requires some more effort on my part. What do I get in return? Do I get an apology if I post a simple test here that proves a quantifiable and measurable "feel"? As disrespectful as you were, I do feel like you owe me that...if I can prove that I was right.

I'm not gonna buy load cells and stepper motors for this. I don't have to, as it's clear, even with a set of bathroom scales. You can truly feel a lot more than the video will prove, too.
 
sdean said:
Yes. It would take an enormous effort to prove this. There are a lot of things we do that cannot be proven emphatically. You don't believe it don't do it. It is not all send the barrel back. When I was being schooled in slugging one of my barrels had a loose spot 11/2 inches from the muzzle. So we cut off 2 instead of 1 inch. This was with a Smith that slugs every barrel he chambers as part of his process. Took about 15 minutes. I could feel it myself. Did it make a difference? Who knows but it did in my mind and that is what counts. Take a chill pill. Good luck.
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Chill pill.....excuse me. I'm not the one who is upset here. I've just asked questions and apparently I'm supposed to take the answers as some kind of article of faith. An enormous effort to prove....but you learned it in 15 minutes....right. You might reread the original post. I asked about this for a friend, not because I had or have any intention of doing it. In fact, although I've been involved in benchrest competition nearly twenty years I'd rarely, almost never even heard it mentioned. I neither believe or disbelieve there is something to it. I'm just asking questions.

One thing I do wonder about. Let's say for discussion I order a custom specialty barrel of some non popular caliber and contour. Then I wait many months and pay $450-500 for this barrel. Then I take it to this vary well known gunsmith who refuses to chamber it without slugging. He slugs the barrel and determines it is defective and will never be made to shoot. What happens then? Will the well know custom barrel maker just take it back, cut it up and make me another at no extra charge? I don't think this is an unreasonable question. Are you telling me it is? And should I take the explanation that you and Mr Allen have given me as an article of faith? That's what it sounds like.

Rick
 
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You need 2 pills. Just take to a Smith that will not slug barrels and have at it. You can not get the answer you want.
The Smith i was talking about would call you and ask you what you want to do. Wait for another one or chamber the one you have. Life is full of choices you have to make.
Read my post. I didn't say I learned anything. I took his learned opinion after 1000's of barrels. I was just starting my journey.
 
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sdean said:
You need 2 pills. Just take to a Smith that will not slug barrels and have at it. You can not get the answer you want.
The Smith i was talking about would call you and ask you what you want to do. Wait for another one or chamber the one you have. Life is full of choices you have to make.
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No need to get pissed at me because you can't answer the question. And I repeat since you can't seem to get it. I don't care and have no plans to ever have a barrel slugged. This thread has been very revealing though, for several reasons.

Rick
 
Greyfox said:
No need to get pissed at me because you can't answer the question. And I repeat since you can't seem to get it. I don't care and have no plans to ever have a barrel slugged. This thread has been very revealing though, for several reasons.

Rick
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Not pissed at all Rick. Just having fun jerking your chain. I'm gone. Bye.
 
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I personally have never seen a barrel slugged. I would very much like to see it done by someone that really knows what he is doing and also I would like to be able to slug a barrel myself and fill the difference which I am sure there will be in one now and then.
Although I have had many smiths do barrel work for me over the past 30 so years. Never had one ask me to have the barrel slugged, not that it would make any difference the way I shoot.
That being said, I would be willing to bet that in the Brenchrest World that more Hall of fame points, World records set and matches won are with barrels not slugged then with barrels slugged.


Chet
 
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