Slugging new barrel blanks?

Let's be clear. The op's claim is not that one can definitively proclaim a barrel's worth nor will slugging replace air gauging. His claim is that small variations can't be felt by humans, specifically .001"-.002". Those differences are not what I'd call small but they are what he has said. You can feel way less than that. A slug is a somewhat soft, molded go/no go gauge. A miniscule variation in size is apparent as it slides across them. I'm sure an air gauge is better at quantifying the amount size variation but I'm not sure that it's any better at detecting a change in dimension is present. But, that's not the op's stated argument. His argument is that he does not believe you can feel small differences, up to and including .002".
Just like closing the bolt on a no go gauge...you definitely feel it. Being lead, it can be forced into the bore but it will take some force to get it through a .002" constriction.
 
Hi Mike
On your last post lost you say the OP talked about feeling the difference of .001 to .002 while slugging.
I have read and reread his post and all he said or talked about was slugging or not slugging.
Are you saying that the top barrel makers let out some barrels with as much as .002 error in a top grade match Barrel ? I think .002 would be GREAT BIG ERROR and I am very sure that much can be felt with a soft lead slug. I also would also like to think that .002 would not be true maybe .0002 or less
P.S. Just asking because I don't know.

Chet
 
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coyotechet said:
Hi Mike
On your last post lost you say the OP talked about feeling the difference of .001 to .002 while slugging.
I have read and reread his post and all he said or talked about was slugging or not slugging.
Are you saying that the top barrel makers let out some barrels with as much as .002 error in a top grade match Barrel ? I think .002 would be GREAT BIG ERROR and I am very sure that much can be felt with a soft lead slug. I also would to think that would not be true maybe .0002 or less
P.S. Just asking because I know.

Chet
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No, I'm not saying that. Post 23. In fairness, Rick said cotton patch in that post. Perhaps he meant .0001-.0002 but he didn't say so in our conversation, when I told him that would be a HUGE amount.
 
It seems that almost no one has taken the time to go back to my original post and see what it was actually about. My question had to do with doing research for a friend regarding the value of slugging barrels to determine whether they were "good" or "bad" . I have freely admitted that I know less than nothing about barrel slugging, so I have no "opinion" and make no "claims" one way or the other. This thread has deteriorated into questions about the calibration of the human bicep, slugging with 22LR bullets, shotgun pellets, poured slugs and cotton patches. Mike E has chosen to feel "disrespected" because I did not agree with his personal experience. That's unfortunate as well as the fact that he chose to make a public issue of a private conversation. But both of those are his decision. Several others seem to have taken as a personal insult that I would disagree with them since I am so very ignorant about the whole thing. It really makes no difference to me what anyone thinks they can "feel" when pushing a patch or a slug through a barrel. I will say that if it was all that important it would seem that all benchrest barrels would be slugged and that all smiths doing benchrest work would do it. Clearly, that is not the case. I personally know a number of smiths who chamber benchrest barrels and none of them slug blanks. I have seen enough on this thread to know what I think and I'm pretty sure my friend has seen it or will shortly. So for us, the information has been provided.

Rick
 
Greyfox said:
It seems that almost no one has taken the time to go back to my original post and see what it was actually about. My question had to do with doing research for a friend regarding the value of slugging barrels to determine whether they were "good" or "bad" . I have freely admitted that I know less than nothing about barrel slugging, so I have no "opinion" and make no "claims" one way or the other. This thread has deteriorated into questions about the calibration of the human bicep, slugging with 22LR bullets, shotgun pellets, poured slugs and cotton patches. Mike E has chosen to feel "disrespected" because I did not agree with his personal experience. That's unfortunate as well as the fact that he chose to make a public issue of a private conversation. But both of those are his decision. Several others seem to have taken as a personal insult that I would disagree with them since I am so very ignorant about the whole thing. It really makes no difference to me what anyone thinks they can "feel" when pushing a patch or a slug through a barrel. I will say that if it was all that important it would seem that all benchrest barrels would be slugged and that all smiths doing benchrest work would do it. Clearly, that is not the case. I personally know a number of smiths who chamber benchrest barrels and none of them slug blanks. I have seen enough on this thread to know what I think and I'm pretty sure my friend has seen it or will shortly. So for us, the information has been provided.

Rick
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Apparently, your mind was made up before you got conflicting experienced replies, Rick. It's also apparent that you aren't interested in the notion of being proven wrong. I offered to post a video and I had planned to bring a couple of barrel stubs and slugs for you to see it firsthand, with one condition, that you apologize if I am right. As for me feeling disrespected from our conversation, I told you that I can feel small variances in the bore with slugging. Your reply was, "no you can't..you might think you can. Nothing you can say can change my mind because (blank) said so."

IOW, you were calling me a liar. Feeling variances of your stated .001-.002" is not subjective, at all.
We discussed this, so I'm not just now, jumping to this conclusion. You were OK with my feeling disrespected then. Now, I'm OK with it too.
 
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The benefits of slugging barrels is controversial...even among barrel makers. One barrel maker stated that slugging was unnecessary and a waste of time since they had air gauges that measured in millionths of an inch. When I asked another barrel maker (one of the top 3 makers) about this, he surprised me when he stated that both air gauges and slugging have their place in evaluating barrels. I was somewhat surprised and I did not get a complete explanation from him. Therefore, please don't let this come between friends. Just because one has strong opinions on a given subject, does not mean that he/she knows all there is to know about the subject. Good shooting...James
 
mwezell said:
Apparently, your mind was made up before you got conflicting experienced replies, Rick. It's also apparent that you aren't interested in the notion of being proven wrong. I offered to post a video and I had planned to bring a couple of barrel stubs and slugs for you to see it firsthand, with one condition, that you apologize if I am right. As for me feeling disrespected from our conversation, I told you that I can feel small variances in the bore with slugging. Your reply was, "no you can't..you might think you can. Nothing you can say can change my mind because (blank) said so."

IOW, you were calling me a liar. Feeling variances of your stated .001-.002" is not subjective, at all.
We discussed this, so I'm not just now, jumping to this conclusion. You were OK with my feeling disrespected then. Now, I'm OK with it too.
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Disagreeing with a persons opinions and beliefs whether experienced or not is quite different than calling that person a liar, which would indicate that said person knows what they are saying is false. Your feelings about disrespect are yours and your choice. I simply disagree with you. If you have trouble with that it's not my problem.
 
Boyd Allen said:
It seems that you have a strong opinion on this subject even though you have no personal experience.
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Yes, I will admit to having some strong opinions about a number of things of which I have no experience. Never placed my hand on a red hot stove burner, but I have a strong opinion that I would get a severe burn. You don't have to be a weatherman to know which way the wind blows.
 
Greyfox said:
Yes, I will admit to having some strong opinions about a number of things of which I have no experience. Never placed my hand on a red hot stove burner, but I have a strong opinion that I would get a severe burn. You don't have to be a weatherman to know which way the wind blows.
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Theorizing that a hot burner will burn you doesn't make you an electrical engineer, Rick. It is, what it is.
 
In a taper lapped barrel

Push the dam thing backwards and you will feel it release. When second guessing the barrel makers. You need more than internet skills.
 
coyotechet said:
Hi Mike On your last post lost you say the OP talked about feeling the difference of .001 to .002 while slugging.I have read and reread his post and all he said or talked about was slugging or not slugging. Are you saying that the top barrel makers let out some barrels with as much as .002 error in a top grade match Barrel ? I think .002 would be GREAT BIG ERROR and I am very sure that much can be felt with a soft lead slug. I also would also like to think that .002 would not be true maybe .0002 or less P.S. Just asking because I don't know.Chet
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Our .30cal test barrels requirements are .3000" to .3005" on the lands and .3080" to .3085" on the groove. We have had lots of barrels that were outside those numbers. They still shot accuratly, but didnt pass pressure or velocity requirements. We shoot everything with referance ammo to confirm.
 
Wouldn't it depend

MilGunsmith said:
Our .30cal test barrels requirements are .3000" to .3005" on the lands and .3080" to .3085" on the groove. We have had lots of barrels that were outside those numbers. They still shot accuratly, but didnt pass pressure or velocity requirements. We shoot everything with referance ammo to confirm.
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on what one's accuracy requirements are?

In the Benchrest arena, we are generally looking to keep bullets inside one bullet hole, vs an X ring that is, say an "eench" or biggeer for some games.

I don't think there is any substitute for straight barrels that have a sligth taper, ending at the muzzle. Likely , the only way to know that is by slugging, from my experience.

Pete
 
I buy slugs from a company called neco i do believe. I slug barrels from time to time. Not every one i will admit. I can only recall one barrel that i actually felt had a problem. When i talked to my customer about this feeling i had, we decided to just chamber it and see what happened. I felt a loose spot about 4 inches in. This barrel had a weigh requirement so cutting the first 4 inches off wasnt an option. Long story short, this particular barrel won several yardages, and a two gun. Needless to say, i do not slug my own barrels. I think for me, i just dont want to feel any loose spots where i intend to cut the crown. Lee
 
Pete Wass said:
on what one's accuracy requirements are?In the Benchrest arena, we are generally looking to keep bullets inside one bullet hole, vs an X ring that is, say an "eench" or biggeer for some games.I don't think there is any substitute for straight barrels that have a sligth taper, ending at the muzzle. Likely , the only way to know that is by slugging, from my experience.Pete
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We look for consistency and a taper towards the muzzle. Some of our reject barrels for dimension, these were .2995" on bore and .3084" on groove the entire length, still shot well for accuracy, but were off on pressures. Slugging cant give you the same info that a good air gauge can, it's just within the financial grasp of more people. An air gage needs to have for each caliber, two spindles ground for the number of grooves and the twist, one for lands, and the other for grooves, plus a pair of calibration rings for each.
 
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I have slugged a lot of barrels, and lapped a lot of them as well. Theres no doubt you can feel very small things with a lead lap or slug. I just dont know that I would ever send one back unless I felt something really bad. The reason I say that, is after all the different methods I have tried to predict how a barrel will shoot, I have found I can not do it. Loose spots, straight, crooked, even imperfections in the bore. I wonder how many barrels that have been sent back were record breakers? I know one of the best I personally owned was a button with a loose spot so bad you could feel it with a brush or patch. That barrel shot well enough to win anywhere in the country. I still do it and usually let the customer decide what to do, but every time they have said to chamber it and I cant stay any have been disappointed. I think a lot of barrel manufacturers have stories of barrel that were sent back and how they shot for them. Now if I had an x-ray that could see stress, THEN I would send barrels back. Of course I do stick to a few top cut barrels for the most part that I have had very good luck with.
 
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"is this a cost effective idea for the shooter or the gunsmith?"
my litl pea brain sez this:
seems to me thats a simple statistics question
if a new chambered barrel is $600...and slugging is $100 then it wud only be "cost effective" when more than 1 in 6 or 16.6% is problematic.
..assuming a positive direct correlation between a defective barrel and slugging exists, which is not proven and would take large sample size to prove or disprove

im not a smith but hav chambered a few barrels
and did hav an excellent statistics teacher!!!!

as for opinion....i doubt that even 1 in 6 of the problematic ones would even be a problem!!!!!!!
as for short answer to original question.....no
i like short answers, they are easy to understand!!!!!
good day...pg
 
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1953greg said:
"is this a cost effective idea for the shooter or the gunsmith?"
my litl pea brain sez this:
seems to me thats a simple statistics question
if a new chambered barrel is $600...and slugging is $100 then it wud only be "cost effective" when more than 1 in 6 or 16.6% is problematic.
..assuming a positive direct correlation between a defective barrel and slugging exists, which is not proven and would take large sample size to prove or disprove

im not a smith but hav chambered a few barrels
and did hav an excellent statistics teacher!!!!

as for opinion....i doubt that even 1 in 6 of the problematic ones would even be a problem!!!!!!!
as for short answer to original question.....no
i like short answers, they are easy to understand!!!!!
good day...pg
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I don't wish to re hash this whole discussion and I agree with you about statistics. But lets just say that I hand you a barrel and slug...You push it along with nice(just fair at best) resistance but then you come upon a spot that stops the slug like a brick wall. You drive it through with a hammer, and it gets all warm and fuzzy again(sort of but not compared to a good feeling bbl), until the slug exits. I consider this a significant sample of one! This is an extreme example but a true to life one that I think I still have the roughly 10" barrel stub from. You could not push a fresh slug beyond that spot by hand!
 
Im not a machinist an have never slugged any barrel.
I have read Bill Calfees book and think his slugging is excellent..??
 
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