Significant rule changes at Williamsport

Jackie
Another significant difference between LG and HG is that in HG class the rear bag can be attached to a pedistal which you can set up to have elevation adjustment and windage adjustment on if you like. With the added weight this all gives you a better return to battey condition so you can more easily "machine gun" your shots.
While allowing brakes in heavy gun would allow lighter guns to be comfortably shot with larger caliber higher BC bullets the heavier weight still helps with taming the torque the heavy bullets generate on the rifle, which cause a lighter rifle to be more disturbed in the bags than a heavy rifle.


James
 
Jackie

The Hvy Gun class is alive and well in 1000 Yd. shooting. In 600 yd. competition it's a different story. At least in the IBS. I'm all for changing our rules from a 5 shot format to a 10 shot format for the IBS. At the present time 85% or more of the rifles shot in the heavy gun class are Lt guns. Almost all 6MM's with no brakes. So we're approaching or have achieved the same redundency that has come to the LV/SP/HV classes.

Dave
 
To all 1000 yard shooters

Thank you for your kind words about the PA.club coming into the 21st century and trying to get all 1000 yard clubs on the same playing field. And for those of you that still think that the configuration of the rifle or the weight determines the way it shoots, you better make it look like Buck Rogers' Ray Gun because you're looking at the wrong thing. I've been saying this for as long as I've been shooting, give me a rifle with a good shooting barrel and I'll shoot against the prettiest gun there is. Oh yes and thank you to the guys making the pretty bullets. Just thought I'd put in a little humor!
 
IBS to step up

We have done a lot of work at the Williamsport club to move it forward. I know it has been whispered but its time for the IBS to adopt 10 shots for light gun. That would really level the playing field. I think I can speak for the Williamsport club that 5 shots will never happen at our club. We think that 10 shots is more competitive and more meaningful. I would like to see IBS move make this an agenda item soon.
 
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But is the day coming to the norm will be where the man with the single Rifle, (a good shooting LG), can rule the day, much as in 100-200 yard Benchrest, where a good Sporter is the Rifle of choice for 90 percent of the shooters??.......jackie

It already is the case. However we are no where near the 80 or 90% range.

A 1K Heavy gun, especially one that's shooting good, is a true pleasure to sit behind and shoot. For that reason alone I don't see HG's leaving the sport anytime soon. In short range where the bullets generally weigh 1/3 as much as ours, yes I can see that, but in long range too many guys shoot big calibers and would not want to give up the comfort of the heavier gun.

Now where you talk of competitiveness, there you are correct and it parallels short range. If a person has a good shooting light gun and shoots it in both classes, they give up about nothing to the heavy guns. In my years of shooting one gun, I had more relay wins in HG class with a light gun and no brake, than I had in the light gun class with one.

In our World Open Agg Match, 3 of the last 6 years the two gun overall winner was shooting one light gun (Actually one shot 2 diff LG's, one three times one once). One of the years where a light gun did not win two gun overall, it won Heavy gun overall, And in our regular season 10 match aggs here in Williamsport, there has been a Two Gun Overall Winner shooting a light gun only, and they did it without winning Light gun overall.

In the past, statistically speaking, braked guns have shot worse than unbraked. It has been almost universally true that people who shot two classes with light guns shot better in the HG class than in the LG class (difference being no brakes then in HG).

SLW said:
So once again Pa. took 2 steps forward and1 back with the new changes. Allowing breaks in heavy gun class,when the IBS clubs voted NO! Now the Pa. shooters going to IBS clubs must remove their heavy gun breaks. Back to the three part vote:[1] 38voted for lightguns to be allowed to shoot in heavy gun[2]61 voted either gun with breaks[3] 32 voted no.I view this vote as 38 voted for light guns to be allowed in the heavy gun class , not as heavy guns being allowed. If you add 38+32 no=70 which is greater than 61 yes! One question I have for anyone is this. If a shooter sitting either side of you is shooting a 375 cytec (which is legal )with a break and fires, does the blast effect your bullets flight path as close as the benches are? The blast would throw percussion waves right into your line of fire.I do not think this was thought out to wisely.
Well, be glad that there was one net step forward I guess. As for "Removing" their brakes, I'd say that 10 years experience doing it should be enough that they don't complain.

On the 3 part vote, you could also say that 32 people were against, and that 93 were for allowing SOME brake. If you choose to look at it negatively, then yes you can. There were also 4 votes that checked 2 boxes which were not counted. Mine was one of them and I really don't care. I checked two boxes cause it doesn't mean a thing to me what guys do. Go put 10 brakes on the gun, I don't care. So, you could also say there were 4 more votes in each of those categories where the person has no problem with it.

As for the 375 affecting my bullets, well, I guess shooting beside Larry Wolfe with his braked 338 never bothered me so I'm not gonna ball-suck and cry if someone shoots a 375 now. Larry's 338 was probably about as much fun to shoot as Earl's 30-378 and I don't see anyone crying about Earl. He's shooting and having fun with the gun he likes, wins relays with it and I even see his name near the top of last years LG group Toplist as well. I say God Bless him. At least he shoots.

If anyone wants to know the truth, having these big guns on the line is a good thing for a lot of people. Now when I shoot bad and get beat, I can just cry the blues and complain that the person beside me is the reason I shot bad. It's a win win situation.

I say wait and see what it brings in real life. If a person feels so strongly enough against it, go get signatures from the 32 who voted no and start a petition, it's enough people to do so. Just remember that there were 97 people who didn't seem to care enough to vote no, and another gazillion who didn't care enough to waste 41 cents worth of gas money.
 
pa.rule changes,4mesh

As for the vote for heavy gun brakes,I never remember hearing anything about allowing brakes for heavy gun class being discuss while at the club.So when I received my ballot , I was a little surprised.As far as being a ball sucking cryer, I WATCH YOUR WORDING AND WHO YOU ADDRESS!! I was stating my view on the vote, and that is it.I do not like the fact that it was passed but life goes on.I also had the pleasant experience of having muzzle blast coming back in my face while shooting at PA. So brakes with backward ports will have to be watched for according to rule58.0 So yes we will have to see what the future holds.
 
As for the vote for heavy gun brakes,I never remember hearing anything about allowing brakes for heavy gun class being discuss while at the club.So when I received my ballot , I was a little surprised.As far as being a ball sucking cryer, I WATCH YOUR WORDING AND WHO YOU ADDRESS!! I was stating my view on the vote, and that is it.I do not like the fact that it was passed but life goes on.I also had the pleasant experience of having muzzle blast coming back in my face while shooting at PA. So brakes with backward ports will have to be watched for according to rule58.0 So yes we will have to see what the future holds.

I'm sure the arrogance or dismissal of your post by 4mesh was unintentional. Although, the way the club went about rushing the implementation of the new rules is a bit of a slap in the face to those club members who preferred to leave well enough alone.
Mongo
 
Slw,

if you were to know the views I have gotten to hear, you would better understand me. I'm sorry if you took that personally. I've already been told by telephone that some are going to complain and that they have made their mind up to do so before ever firing a shot. The excuses for how this will be bad are so incredible someone should write a book. The HG rules returning to the original rules also had a littany of stories talking about how the class would change forever, yet, there's not a person at the range who changed anything from what I've seen. Have you seen a tuner?

How many people do you honestly think will put a brake on thier hg? If it's the same number who added tuners, that's zero (lest some rubber rings on one that's seldom or never shot).

Amazingly enough, nobody is saying anything about the LG's. I guess the vote was too lopsided.

I have said twice above this is a trial basis (because of a change made by the board to make all rules changes undergo a trial 1 year). Now, those are BOARD rules, put there so the BOARD cannot freelance the rules. You now make the calls. However, if YOU feel this is bad, and you think enough people agree with you, you may begin a petition just like anyone else and have it brought to the membership. You are not alone in your opinion which guns should be allowed to have brakes. The first match may well cause more people to feel the way you do, and may make them feel the opposite. The only way to find out is to ask them. As it stands from a few days ago, the vote was what it was and I doubt there were any who did not understand what "allow brakes regardless of rifle" meant.

I can say I will never vote on the subject again. What they want they want, I won't change my gun regardless. If you had blast in your face, then I guess you don't much care what the other guy does either or you would have told someone to look into it. I dealt with exactly one issue all last year and I was instructed to do so by a shooter. Nobody has ever said to me to look at a persons brake but if you say to, we will.
 
...I WATCH YOUR WORDING AND WHO YOU ADDRESS!! ...

slw - in all fairness, that is hard to do when no one knows who you are (no profile info)

I am glad I now have an extra 1/2lb to play with :)

YMMV,
JB
 
PA.rule change

AS in all fairnessto jb1000br. it is easy to word responses on this site other than what was said by 4mesh.My response was just ,I stand by it. I will up date my profile for you Jason. My name is Scott Weber
 
AS in all fairnessto jb1000br. it is easy to word responses on this site other than what was said by 4mesh.My response was just ,I stand by it. I will up date my profile for you Jason. My name is Scott Weber

How ya doing Scott,
Say hello to your dad for me.
Vinny
 
Vinny

Hi Vinny, I'm doing good! Just getting ready for this season at Pa.I'll tell my dad you said hi.
 
Scott

To answer your other question, about brakes on HG.And then going to an IBS match. Make sure when you put a brake on your gun to make sure you make a blank the same weight as the brake and you will be legal!
 
To answer your other question, about brakes on HG.And then going to an IBS match. Make sure when you put a brake on your gun to make sure you make a blank the same weight as the brake and you will be legal!

Much snow up there Joe?
vinny
 
Joe

Thanks for the imformation on brakes.I'm presently debating weather to put brakes on the two new guns that are being built, 1 new heavy gun and a light gun.I'm finally going to shoot light gun this year.Looking forward to another year with my son and dad.
 
Vinny

All gone thank God!


Scott

give me a call and I will explain things that have happened over the winter. you'll love it!
 
Scott, Say hi to your dad as well for me. And hopefully you got a frame for that 3.xxx" group from the World Open this past year!

Take care,
jason
 
Good move with the rule change...

I aplaud the effort of the Pa. 1000 yd club....this is truely foreward thinking....now if IBS would get their act together and allow brakes in HG those of us with 300mag LG's and brakes culd shoot the event without having to "take it off" and take a beating with the recoil.....
Most of the 1000yd clubs have the benches so far apart that I dont even notice the "blast" from the guns beside of me ......
As was stated earlier....it is logical to build a LG first...and if you have a LG it shuld be allowed to shoot in the HG class....it is only helpful to the clubs and the sport .. I am one who has only a LG ((I am disabled and cant cary one of those "big un"s"))..and Guess what ...it is a legal 10.5 lb Sporter (SP) according to the point blank rules...with one exception...I have a 30" bbl (1/8 twist)that I install when shooting the big bullets at long range. Hows that for a crossover gun....I have said before that I wish the HV class would be changed to allow 17 lb guns with any stock so that the 1000 yd shooters and guns could compete at point blank events....the shooting of 10 five shot targets a day would give a excellent way to test guns and components that the long range events would take many days of shooting to prove. IMHO...
No matter what ....the future survival of our clubs/shooting ranges depends on shooter attendence and participation $$$$$$$.....
Good on you guys in PA!!!!!!! ....Roger
 
To answer your other question, about brakes on HG.And then going to an IBS match. Make sure when you put a brake on your gun to make sure you make a blank the same weight as the brake and you will be legal!

A brake is to reduce recoil, which is what the weight of a heavy gun does.
However, I have been using a light gun with the brake replaced by a blank
since I got tired of carrying my heavy gun and the seprate rests for it. I don't
really care if they allow brakes on HG, however some of the larger cal. can
cause quite a blast. The Iowa Club has put plywood sheets between the benches for shooters to use if needed, and I have found that to be helpful.
The benches at Iowa are closer together than Williamsport, but the plywood might be a good idea for Williamsport if people complain about a problem.
I am looking forward to the 2008 World Open - I hope there arn't a bunch of
Muzzle Brake Protesters there. :D
 
Hopefully the last word on muzzle brake rule

Here's my, hopefully, last word about the subject of brakes on heavy guns. I recall talking and hearing about using muzzle brakes in the heavy gun class for awhile now. Stuff like "Why can't I use my brake on my light gun in the heavy gun class?" That particular question has been going around since before I was president, so it has to be 4 or 5 years now. So, since the board had already decided to send out voting ballots to all our members, expending the energy and time and expense to get the mailing lists, send a printer the letter and the ballot and get it all into evelopes and addressed and stamped and put in the mail - we thought why not also settle questions about the weight of the light gun going to 17 pounds and the use of muzzle brakes in the heavy gun class. To try to make it clear what people were voting on we even gave three choices about use of muzzle brakes. As I look at it now it makes me wonder if three choices didn't just confuse some folk. But then no matter how you do it some people just don't like it. But, also, the board made a decision at the 2008 January board meeting to make any rule change with a built-in one year trial period, at the end of which time the board would make a decision as to whether the rule becomes permanent. So, at the January 2009 board meeting, whoever the board may consist of after the fall elections, can take a look at the changes. Whatever the board decides, if there are members who disagee, the members can follow the procedure the club has in place for presenting a petititon to bring an issue to a member vote. And let me tell you - if it gets to that and there is another member vote on these issues next year, whichever way the vote goes will not be to the liking of everyone. So here is my last word, the rules are the rules for the 2008 shooting season. Let's get on with it, get our equipment ready, look forward to a new season. The board will continue to work on making improvements like the new benches, new parking lot, new cook shack, new pavillion, new air conditioner, etc., etc., etc. A chicken in every pot, so to speak. (By the way, before I start getting emails or letters or phone calls about spending too much money, bankrupting the club, etc. all those improvments will not happen this year) P.S. None of my guns will have brakes on them. I can think of much better ways to waste my money.
 
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