Evelio, Thanks for the tip and it worked .... I can't see it on the bullet but I can see it out of the barrel from touch. I did remove the lube and was a more positive stop. Thanks again for the info. Jim
Rimfire chambers
- Thread starter tonykharper
- Start date
Evelio, Thanks for the tip and it worked .... I can't see it on the bullet but I can see it out of the barrel from touch. I did remove the lube and was a more positive stop. Thanks again for the info. Jim
Hey Jim,
What do you mean you can not be competitive at 78, hell I will be 79 in January, and still shoot 4 matches a month, and feel very competitive, hell sometimes I even win a few, and still working on guns 6/7 hours a day, and enjoying every minute thanks to god.
Don't ever give up.
Good luck,
Evelio.
tonykharper
Well-known member
There is a slight difference, I'm 100% disabled from the service, Can't hear and can't see very good and now have breathing problem. I have trouble sleeping other than that the rest of the problems come with age... LOL..... Jim
Evelio, Yea, once in awhile I get lucky this year I got a chunk of the World open..... Jim
tonykharper
Well-known member
Damn Jim,
You make me feel lucky as I sit here unable to eat hard food and living off of liquids and baby food. But hopefully this is only temporary.
Hope to see you at Wilsons or McKeesport.
TKH (4628)
kevinnevius
Member
Tony:
Okay, here I am as requested.
I have been following this but was actually not planning to respond. There has been some intentional misinterpretation since my original post in 2011 (http://www.rimfireaccuracy.com/Foru...hambers-for-Lapua-use?highlight=lapua+chamber) that follows a pattern - seems its the fate of any idea that doesn't originate in Borden. So, let me restate (for the millionth time) some facts:
1. I never said that every rifle in America needs to be rechambered to shoot the exceptional ammunition Lapua makes. I won my very first National Title shooting Lapua in a 2 degree "Eley" chamber. Back in 2011 I was simply experimenting trying to find something better - and had the audacity to share it. For the record, what Evelio posted above is spot on. It is how I am setting up my chambers today, and has been since 2011. I have not seen a reason to change it, and have won seven National Titles with it FYI.
2. It has never been a secret that I use a datumless Meyers profile. JGS needed to call it something, so they added my name to it. It is and has been publicly available. The only reason I tried the 1.5 degree leade was due to my respect and admiration for the late Karl Kenyon - who used a similar profile exclusively, with round nosed ammunition (the bullet profile that dominated competitive shooting during his heyday). I would speculate that had I stuck with a 2 degree chamber profile, I would have found a similar optimal seating depth - I just never conducted the testing.
3. I am not a commercial gunsmith, but I do fit barrels for people who use Eley. And I can tell you (after 25 years of working with both Lapua and Eley products) there are huge differences in what each considers acceptable consistency - especially with regard to driving band position. From your comments earlier in the thread, I am pretty sure I know which you use.
I have been as transparent regarding this topic as I can be, and only offered it to help others and share information.
My apologies for the negativity (should any be perceived) - some in the RFBR community have unfortunately given me reason to be cautious, which is truly unfortunate.
I am always available to help anyone - all you need do is ask. (I certainly don't have all the answers though).
kev
tonykharper
Well-known member
kev,
Thank you for responding.
From the tone of your response it seems you have a bur under your saddle.
I don't think I've ever misinterpreted anything you have written.
Who ever said you thought, "every rifle in America needs to be rechambered to shoot the exceptional ammunition Lapua makes".
It certainly wasn't me, but you addressed it to me.
Apparently you have completely missed the purpose of this thread. That purpose was to state:
1. I don't know how one would chamber for one brand of ammunition. In my experience they all vary, brand to brand, and lot to lot within a brand.
2. Shared the fact that when I cut chambers, I use the current lot I'm shooting as my target the best I can.
I also shared that there is no guarantee the next lot I buy will measure the same or shoot as well in the barrel as the lot I used when I cut the chamber.
2. If there is a way people are cutting chambers just for one brand I was hoping to learn that technique. Although I doubt seriously I would ever use it.
As you saw, the conversation took a turn when one member said his Nevius chamber did not engrave the bullet, and another member stated his did, and went on to say you had called for .030 engraving.
My hope was you would join the thread and shed some light on the subject.
But as often happens on the internet, you didn't read what was actually said, you went with your emotions, apparently that of hating RFBR, and responded as if you had been victimized.
Check the record Kev. Many more RFBR shooters have praised your achievements than have criticized your efforts, and that includes me.
I do understand your emotions. You have been asked to attend RFBR matches of which you have refused.
That is also your rite, but you shouldn't take your fear of getting your butt kicked, as being picked on.
This does not give you the rite to disparage the RFBR community for things they never did.
TKH (4628)
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kevinnevius
Member
Tony:
Okay, lets take this piece by piece (following your numbered responses above):
1. I obviously do believe there are ways to optimize a chamber for a particular brand of ammunition, which is an has been subject to debate. The lot to lot variance you are using as a deterrent to this idea has not been so apparent in the ammunition I choose to use. So yes, I do know how one would chamber for a specific brand of ammunition (my experience only, unfortunately just as valid as your own).
2. Again, I have not seen enough variance in the virtually hundreds of lots of Lapua ammunition I have had access to that would dissuade me from the idea. I keep the remnants of several lots solely for setup, but checking newer lots through the years in these chambers has not revealed significant variance - especially at the target (which is the only measuring stick that matters).
3. Regarding shedding light - the dimensional data shared is what I have been using. Since 2011 I have continued to experiment, and am still using it simply because it shoots very well.
4. You have absolutely no right to twist my words - I do NOT hate RFBR. You should know better. You are an icon in the sport, and your words carry weight. With that weight comes responsibility. You are not the person I thought you were. I do remember all of the posts on Calfee's site during the discussion of these chambering ideas - look them up, they are what I am specifically talking about.
5. And I am hoping to attend some BR matches in the future, and I would hope I would be welcomed. I have no asperations of winning, but as I get older I find that winning was possibly never what drew me to the sport in the first place. It certainly isn't what keeps me coming back. Regardless of what you believe, I think I might find some friends in the sport.
6. To add something to the thread - this is how I chamber. I use carbide live pilot reamers, made by JGS. I remove barrel stock and face the ends, and true ID / OD concentricity using a live center in the tailstock. While it is still fixtured, I set up my steady rest (at the tail stock), and back off the live center. I then insert a bushed taper pin, and check for runout at the face and at the pin end. If I don't see zero, I repeat the process until I do. I then chamber at the tail stock end of the bed (with the barrel supported in the steady rest) at 180rpm, using Tap Magic cutting fluid - slowly fed, clearing chips every .100". I, like you, use a floating reamer holder - mine is a JGS. When I think I am near final depth, I check it with several live rounds (cleaned, never using the same round of course) and use a separate indicator to measure engagement. I then chamber to final depth based on the measurements. I use a bronze dowel and progressively finer sandpaper to polish the .007" radius at the case mouth. I inspect the final chamber off machine with a jewelers lope, and if I see any abnormalities, imperfections or burrs at the lands I rechamber.
And if I had any fear at all of being beaten, I never would have tried this sport in the first place.
I really wish you hadn't responded this way - and honestly, I didn't think my response warranted it.
For what it's worth, I hope you and yours have a great Christmas.
kev
tonykharper
Well-known member
kev,
I'm sorry to say you are exactly the person I thought you were.
If you had given what you put in your para. 6 above, in your first post, everyone would have respected that.
Nearly every post you have ever made takes a swipe at how RFBR has treated you.
You are always welcome at RFBR matches. I, myself, have invited you.
Don't attribute everything you read on Calfee's site to me.
Although, he has been the most successful gunsmith in the sport, don't take out your jealousy on me.
Do as you told me, go back and read those post and see what I, and only I, said.
There is no point continuing this, and regardless of your next post, if any, I will not respond.
If you ever do show up at a match I would be glad to share a bench or equipment with you.
Hope you and yours have a Merry Christmas.
TKH (4628)
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tonykharper
Well-known member
Measurement data
Here are some measurements that you may be able to use when chambering your next rimfire barrel.
This data was gathered by Bob Okorn. Bob used a CAD program.
Six makes (versions) of 22LR rounds, were put into a CAD generated chamber. This is how they compared at six different chamber depths.
Remember when looking at this data there is considerable variances in each lot of ammo, from lot to lot, and brand to brand.
Some claim they don't see a variance. I just wish I could get my ammo where they get theirs.
This goes back to my previously asked question. How would one create a chamber for a pacific brand of ammo?
This data suggest you could. Or am I reading it wrong?
TKH (4628)
View attachment Bullet Length.pdf
Here are some measurements that you may be able to use when chambering your next rimfire barrel.
This data was gathered by Bob Okorn. Bob used a CAD program.
Six makes (versions) of 22LR rounds, were put into a CAD generated chamber. This is how they compared at six different chamber depths.
Remember when looking at this data there is considerable variances in each lot of ammo, from lot to lot, and brand to brand.
Some claim they don't see a variance. I just wish I could get my ammo where they get theirs.
This goes back to my previously asked question. How would one create a chamber for a pacific brand of ammo?
This data suggest you could. Or am I reading it wrong?
TKH (4628)
View attachment Bullet Length.pdf
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Bob1949
Member
Engraving
Tony, thank you for getting this data posted. When I first looked at the data, the first question I asked myself was why were there so many chamber depths to choose from. It seems for rimfire benchrest the brand of bullet would dictate the chamber depth. The only thing I can’t say is, which depth is the best for which bullet. Bob
Tony, thank you for getting this data posted. When I first looked at the data, the first question I asked myself was why were there so many chamber depths to choose from. It seems for rimfire benchrest the brand of bullet would dictate the chamber depth. The only thing I can’t say is, which depth is the best for which bullet. Bob
As it turns out mine wasn't bored deep enough. It looks like mine is engraving .050+/-. My apologies if this caused any inconvenience.
Keith
Tim, I made one today & checked some of the few lots I have. One of my best lots of Eley was on the long side compared to others I had by as you mentioned, about .010. Same with some decent shooting lots of Center x & Midas I have. Figured I may be onto something.
I'd got some test lots a couple months back & tested 2 lots of Match that didn't shoot very well, & 1 lot of 10x which did. They are all measuring within .003 of each other, on the short side.
I was hoping this gauge would unlock a mystery but now am not sure....
Keith
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Post Chamber Lap
Is a post chamber lap same as "finishing" a chamber?
A little embarrasing but never having done one or knowing how to attack it I thru a stub in the lathe, reamed it, wrapped some emery paper around a 10-32 screw & had at it. Certainly looked alot better & couldn't see any detriment to the lands with my chitty Teslong. Engraving on the bullet looked good. I'd picked up a CM Douglas barrel for $50 last fall & did the same but have yet to shoot it. Looks nice though.
Should I call this a "proprietary" method?
Keith
Is a post chamber lap same as "finishing" a chamber?
A little embarrasing but never having done one or knowing how to attack it I thru a stub in the lathe, reamed it, wrapped some emery paper around a 10-32 screw & had at it. Certainly looked alot better & couldn't see any detriment to the lands with my chitty Teslong. Engraving on the bullet looked good. I'd picked up a CM Douglas barrel for $50 last fall & did the same but have yet to shoot it. Looks nice though.
Should I call this a "proprietary" method?
Keith
George Atkins
Active member
Is a post chamber lap same as "finishing" a chamber?
A little embarrasing but never having done one or knowing how to attack it I thru a stub in the lathe, reamed it, wrapped some emery paper around a 10-32 screw & had at it. Certainly looked alot better & couldn't see any detriment to the lands with my chitty Teslong. Engraving on the bullet looked good. I'd picked up a CM Douglas barrel for $50 last fall & did the same but have yet to shoot it. Looks nice though.
Should I call this a "proprietary" method?
Keith
Keith, you really need a HOB.
I read somewhere that it's the only way to properly lap a chamber.glynn angle
Member
Keith, you really need a HOB.
Shs, hush..TOP SECRET...how could you have known