Reality-- and what people "claim"

Roger T said:
But Montana Pete it's probabley you that can't shoot the conditions NOT the rifle.The rifle doesn't know calm an 70% humidity from 40 mph gusts an 100% humidity.If you excuse the expression it's the nut behind the but that does the steering,and I'm as guilty as anyone of that:eek:
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THIS is what I'm disagreeing with! THE GUN WON'T DO IT......... Montana's perfectly capable, I'm saying that 99.9% factory guns just aren't. To prove this fact for yourself I'd like to see y'all's shoot a truly accurate firearm. If any of you are ever around the SW WA area, Vancouver/Longview them let me be the first to invite you to my home to try one out :)

I've had folks that have never fired a rifle set down to shoot one teensy-weensy hole...it's FUN. Do what you've gotta' do but DO find yourself a BR guy and he'll let you shoot his equipment.

It's FUN :)


al
 
Al

I agree that a true BR rig is a site to behold and shoot.and Most BR rigs have capabilities beyond those shooting them. Example take a BR rig put it in a machine rest-tune it for say 500yds. Now take that same rig and let 10 top BR shooters shoot it at 500yds, I would guess that the machine rest would be the better groups
 
Roger T said:
I agree that a true BR rig is a site to behold and shoot.and Most BR rigs have capabilities beyond those shooting them. Example take a BR rig put it in a machine rest-tune it for say 500yds. Now take that same rig and let 10 top BR shooters shoot it at 500yds, I would guess that the machine rest would be the better groups
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Nope ;) exactly the opposite. In fact, I'm not a great-shakes shooter but I can shoot better than any machine rest that I know of because the machine rest doesn't compensate for conditions. The best "machine rests" that I know of are the big return-to-battery rigs, rails and Heavies. With these you just shoot at your sighter until you find a wind condition that you like and then you either SHOOT IT!!! or you wait until the condition returns and SHOOT FAST!! These are state of the art as far as intrinsic accuracy but they're still STEERED by the shooter........ These bad boys will absolutely shoot but they still need a driver. here are some rails and heavies, I guess you could call these "machine rests". Note that they are a far cry from "putting a BR rifle in a machine rest".

http://bryantcustom.com/galleries/railguns.htm

As far as mechanical rests like the Caldwell Lead Sled or the Ransom series of rests, even a moderately careful shooter can shoot better than they're capable of. I'm not aware of any type of cradle or universal machine rest that's capable of holding a rifle and allowing it to shoot as well as a good shooter on good bags. The late Mac Mcluskey was working on a railgun concept which allowed one to lash a standard BR gun into a carriage to make it perform like a rail. I talked to him about it on the phone maybe 8-10mo ago, I don't know if he ever got it off the ground. Someone like Mustafa Bilal or Shiraz Bilolia would maybe know more about this project.

Of course, this is all just my opinion, based on my experience. Maybe someone does have a working machine rest out there....

al
 
shooting a fly

Hi all:
Well they say the proof is in the pudding. If you say you shot a fly you better SHOW you shot a fly. hehe Well ok I say I shot a fly:

http://bp0.blogger.com/_e-eX0PJTx1w/RighBn_osaI/AAAAAAAAAAM/znfyfP2ZJe4/s1600-h/IMGP1429.JPG

And here's the story that goes with it (from my blog):

"Ok here is the story on this pic. I was shooting my H&R M12 to zero the scope at 50 yards. The first shot was the one to the far right. The second shot was the next one on the right. The third shot was the one slightly to the left. Ok then I shot four more that were dead center. Just as I was about to shoot the fifth shot a fly landed on the paper. Well I said to myself "that fly is history" not really expecting to hit it. Well I did hit it dead center and it splattered all over the paper." lol

PS That fly was shot using a 36X FM High Tech scope with a fine crosshair. And for the record I had a 4 shot group of .131 going in the center when that damn fly tempted me to shoot him (to boot). Also notice the super high tech target used. lol Here's a pic of the H&R M12 (again from my blog):

http://bp2.blogger.com/_e-eX0PJTx1w/Rin1X3_osfI/AAAAAAAAAA0/OS5oxUn-axI/s1600-h/IMGP1450.JPG

Ok ok she is ugly I admit. But damn that gal can shoot! I have affectionately called her "The Fly Shooter" ever since. Oh one more thing. To add insult to injury I shot that fly using CCI BLAZER ammo. BUT it is really good stuff in the fly shooter. hehe
 
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On a related tangent, the biggest "problem" for shooters that do not use any form of wind flag is that they actually think that, sitting at the firing line, that they know what the wind is doing between their location and the target.

Another common problem is that most shooters at a public range do not have a rest setup that allows the rifle to be perfectly still as the trigger is being pulled. As a result they tend to think that shooting better is largely a matter of doing a better job of holding the rifle still as they pull the trigger. These two issues, along with the typical sling stud in sand bag, and lack of follow through take in the most common problems.

Given all of the above few of us have any real idea of what their equipment is capable of with proper management.

With one exception that I can think of, none of the news stand magazine writers have a clue, nor do the TV show personalities, at least based on what I have read and seen. Bottom line, all the people that most shooters use as examples are clueless, giving the average shooter little chance of ever getting it right....unless they happen to get lucky and find a mentor that is the real thing. I hope that those of you who have the knowledge are passing it on, or it will die with us. Find someone who is receptive and take him under your wing. Pass it on.
 
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Changing Conditions

Montana Pete posted that his rifle would shoot an honest 1/2" under IDEAL conditions,BUT when the Conditions were RAGGED (calm to 20 mph gusts) he was shooting 1" groups. Now that's not the rifles fault that's the shooter. I'm pretty sure he's in that group of species we call HUMAN and learns as he goes like all the rest of us.:)
 
along with the typical sling stud in sand bag, and lack of follow through take in the most common problems.
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YES! sling studs. the first thing to realize. and utilizing follow thru can help you with trigger squeeze, and calling your shots, which helps to negate the effects of the heavy kickers.
 
Montana Pete said:
You ask, "why are you defensive?" I read your challenge with the money bet, and thought you were trying to make an example of me as a "fake." I knew what that rifle does, and I was aware that it is a real shooter.
As one man posting in this thread stated, "the gun probably can do it but I am not sure I can do it." Furthermore, the gun is too new.

My main point in posting the photo is to earn your respect, and to show you I am not just some fake.
MP
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Mr. Montana Pete, would you believe, that this is a lovely story.

Mr. Montana Pete would you believe that's good for everyone to know your rifle is one hole driller and you're not a fake.

Con
 
Roger T said:
Montana Pete posted that his rifle would shoot an honest 1/2" under IDEAL conditions,BUT when the Conditions were RAGGED (calm to 20 mph gusts) he was shooting 1" groups. Now that's not the rifles fault that's the shooter. I'm pretty sure he's in that group of species we call HUMAN and learns as he goes like all the rest of us.:)
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THIS is exactly what I'm talking about Roger, Not only do I not believe that Pete's rifle is capable of agg'ing .50 "under ideal conditions" (It IS the rifle's fault!) but I don't believe that said rifle or rifleman can possibly agg 1" at 200 yds in "ragged, from calm to gusts of 20mph winds". (Nor did Pete claim this)......... Real BR guns won't just automatically agg 1" @200yds without flags, and that's WITH a world class shooter behind the butt. 1" groups in a 0-20mph breeze ain't a cakewalk!


What Pete actually said is that he "got some groups under 1moa"........... now THIS is entirely believable and noteworthy :) That would be TWO-INCH groups, and that would be SOME groups, not an aggregate. Pete's claim is in no way outlandish and his contention that many post inflated claims of accuracy is one that I agree with.

I further contend that this problem is aggravated by misunderstanding (like you just misunderstood Pete's post) and by lack of actual shooting experience of many of the recipients of such posts. Stuff gets passed on as "fact" when in fact much of it is supposition.

IN MY LIMITED EXPERIENCE, the factory rifle which will actually agg under 1/2moa is a rare treasure indeed.

Now, on the other hand rifles which will "shoot a half-inch group at 100 yards" are thick as leaves on the ground. ANY rifle will shoot the occasional 1/2" group, the law of averages guarantees this.

THIS though is NOT "what the rifle will do if I do my part"......"What the rifle will do" on a given day with a given shooter and load is determined by shooting it for aggregate or average score of 5 consecutive 5-shot groups.

opinionsby




al
 
alinwa said:
Real BR guns won't just automatically agg 1" @200yds without flags, and that's WITH a world class shooter behind the butt. 1" groups in a 0-20mph breeze ain't a cakewalk.
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Sorry Al
Not so sure I can agree with you there.
I just returned from the Dartmouth egg shoot. Granted an egg is a tad over .5 moa at 200yds(in width anyways) and I'll not even attempt the math at 300. Remember I'm stupid and rather proud of it:)
Anyhow I just won the 200yd match with a Savage action with the original VLP stock and a third hand internet purchased used 6BR barrel which throws it into custom class. I was shooting lousy 58gn varmint bullets to boot.

After twenty eggs and three 45 acp cases I finally won out. And this was a bad day for the usual custom class guys or I would have got skunked easily. Normally the 200yd match is decided by shooting paintballs. This range is 4-5 miles off the Atlantic Ocean and wind is a very normal thing. Today was almost windless though which helped me immensly I'm sure. I stink in heavy wind no doubt about that.

Not a single wind flag on the range.

I just entered the "custom realm" this year.
Now if world class shooters can't pull that type of stuff off I'll have to think about whooping some world class butt. "Oh yeah I know they can most easily"

My factory 204R Savage won "factory" at 300yds also. No flags out there either.

Flags are extremely imortant for winning National matches of any sort I'm sure. But there comes a point where a shooter must become a shooter and realize they can still shoot fairly good without. Don't you think?

Just a guy who can't read flags who's a little tired of hearing anyone who pulls a trigger without them is wasting ammo.
And Yes someday I'd like to learn thier use and really become proficient.

After this rant is over I'd like to say I have great respect for your opinion Al. I'm sure your twice the shooter I'll ever be. For one thing you know what those little whirlygig things are saying and I'll forever be indebted for your crush fit/square head logic;)
 
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jo,

"almost windless though which helped me immensely I'm sure."

"and a third hand internet purchased used 6BR barrel which throws it into custom class."

;)

The prior posts mentioned winds "from 0 to 20mph" and factory rifles.

I don't really think we're disagreeing here......I'm not even sure what you're disagreeing with in the snippet of my post that you referred to??? Are you implying that a gun WILL just stay within 1" at 200yds with winds gusting from zero to twenty miles per hour? With your 58gr bullets?? My ballistic charts and shooting experience over flags would indicate differently.....like from zero to 8" of drift each way, or 16" total difference side-to-side in a 20mph reversal.........or another way to put it, every 5mph change is worth a full 2 inches of drift..... a 20mph wind is nothing to sneeze at.


Yeahhhh.... I'm quite sure that the windless conditions contributed just a little to your success too :)


Regarding this question..... " But there comes a point where a shooter must become a shooter and realize they can still shoot fairly good without. Don't you think?"......... No I DON'T think ;) Right now my range is flagged only to 100yds. Some days I just don't bother shooting any further because it IS a waste of ammo. I keep targets up on the 350yd butts because this has proven to be a good place for me to test my 600yd loads, many days I find the 350yd range to be completely unusable because even though the gun seems to be working I simply cannot get a read on the wind. When the wind is switching even 5mph in a way that I can't read it makes the range unusable.


Congratulations on your win. Congratulations on steering the rifle well, congratulations on your choice of cartridge and on the wise purchase of an aftermarket barrel.


al
 
Well Al--

There's living proof, the wind blows 'em out, the wind blows 'em in. I too think most groups are helped by hot air or the wind. Now if there was a Win. in the mix, I surely would throw in the B.S. flag. Steve.
 
I stand corrected Al

He did say 1/2 min and 1 min. groups not 1/2"and 1" groups my bad. But I still say that with only the change in wind conditions it's the shooter not the gun that's not capable of maintaining that 1/2 min accuracy.
 
I notice that you guys live in what I would consider a "calm" state. If you want real wind come to Kansas some time. I mean it is NEVER calm. If you can't shoot in the wind you might as well play dominoes. It reminds me of a trap tournament last year. A nice couple were from back east and just happened to stop by at the Dodge City trap club for a little shoot we were having. The wind was howling at about 20 miles an hour. A nice constant wind. The club sits on top of a hill to boot with not a tree within eyesight. Now since I'm on the subject of wind I would like to post an observation. Most people have NO idea of how much there is. They typically greatly OVER ESTIMATE it. I broke down and bought a wind wizard last year and started asking shooters what they thought the wind was. Most were way off. A 20 mph wind is really strong! It's like if your hat blows off it's stopping in the next county. Anyways to finish my story they made a comment like "gee it's so windy here how can you shoot?" But that's typical wind in ozland. So be glad you live where's it calm guys. On my range here at my place I did break down and buy a couple flags. I put one close to my bench and one at the 100 yd. line. Since I truthfully shoot mainly rimfires, 100 yds is a good distance really. But they don't really do me much good. The wind swirls so much because of the trees you get a headache watching that damn thing go round in circles. I don't bother trying to shoot many groups. I just got some nice Champion hanging NRA silhouette steel targets mounted on a couple 2X4's. When I am using the fly shooter or my Kimber 82 and am shooting well I can hit the chicken about 85% of the time using cheapo Blazers. I ain't saying I'm real good now but I do shoot a lot with good equipment. And considering the "wind" that really ain't too bad.

ozman

PS I love reading your shooting observations and interesting tripe on this board. Keep up the good work.
 
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I wish I had a dollar for each time someone told me about their 1/2 MOA or one hole grouping rifle that somehow strangely was hard pressed to shoot even MOA or 2 MOA on a calm morning in Seattle. The wind blows here like it wants Billings to move to ND or maybe Canada, so itty bitty groups are either shot first thing in the morning or are a case of even a blind hog finds acorns.

When someone starts bragging about how well their factory rifle shoots I usually just nod and say something about, "that's good". No point in arguing with a fool, someone will walk by and not know which is which. :eek:
 
Who cares what a factory rifle will group, or consistantly group..

Are they BR guns? NO
Are they BR cartridges? NO
Are the barrels short and fat? NO
Do they weigh a ton? NO
Will they ever be used at exactly 100/200/300yds? NO

If a guy can pull up and hit, with a single cold barrel shot, within 1/2moa of his mark, his claim is sound so far.
What else would anyone expect, or desire, from a hunting rifle?
 
I didn't go through all the posts yet...

Montana Pete said:
I guess I'm a skeptical cuss. A little careful to believe some of the smoke that gets blown on these forums.

Recently I read some claims. One shooter blatted very confidently that his rifle shot consistently half-minute groups, or even less. Day in day out-- "my rifle is better than yours."

I just got back from an afternoon on the range. There was a ragged, gusty wind. The wind varied, second by second, from near calm to gusts close to 20 mph. I was firing at 200 yds with a 22-250.

My gun will shoot 1/2 minute groups under ideal conditions. It will not shoot those groups at 200 yds when there is unsteady air, such as gusty wind. Today I got a few sub- 1 minute groups and -- under the circumstances -- was not disappointed or upset.

Now, how many times do you guys have "ideal" conditions. Our range gets a lot of gusty conditions because the range is down in a defile between some high bluffs, and the topography can amplify even a light breeze.

Maybe you guys think I am "sour grapes," but I'm a bit leery of these bland assertions. The idea that "hey, I can go out and shoot half-minute groups all day."

Well, on some days you can and on some days you can't.

Now with a true benchrest rifle a lot is possible, but this thread is "factory/hybrid." Call that "varminters" if you want.

Anyway, I think it is not that rare than some baloney gets handed around on this forum.

Some of this sounds so easy -- until you actually drag your a__ out there to the range and try to DO it.

What do you folks think?
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...BUT most of the guys I know who say this kinda stuff keep a laminated 3 shot group in their wallet. Usually from a factory deer/varmint rifle like you are stating. I just don't waste my time and congrat them and go about my biz. The gun range can be a frustrating place if you have ever owned a BR rig.


I don't shoot much behind flags any more but I cannot count the times I've heard. "Why did you put flags up....it's calm today??

Had LOTS of fun letting them get behind that pretty painted gun. Warned them the trigger was real light and may want to dry fire to get used to it....."no need BANG....wow, I don't think I was even on the paper yet??"

I say, "You are not supposed to have your finger in the guard till you are ready & should know that....I told you it was a very light trigger." Yes, I gloated.

I would watch the the flags that were not needed because it was so calm and let them shoot a group. I would watch the flags and call their shots w/out seeing the target....."bet that one went right at least one bullet hole."

Reply: "How did you know that??"

"Those flags that aren't needed"

pf
<><
 
mikecr said:
Who cares what a factory rifle will group, or consistantly group..

Are they BR guns? NO
Are they BR cartridges? NO
Are the barrels short and fat? NO
Do they weigh a ton? NO
Will they ever be used at exactly 100/200/300yds? NO

If a guy can pull up and hit, with a single cold barrel shot, within 1/2moa of his mark, his claim is sound so far.
What else would anyone expect, or desire, from a hunting rifle?
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Good LORD A'Mighty!!

If There's a man on God's Earth who can "pull up and hit, with a single cold barrel shot, within a 1/2moa of his mark" using any make/model/caliber of factory firearm I'd sure like to meet him! And YES, I have shot flies at 200yds.


"What else would anyone expect?"


Well, except for on the keyboard I'd not "expect" to do that very often with my BR rifles!


Now off the bench, with some flags out I can often do it.......but as often as not my group will begin to form 1/2moa away from where I expect it.

Maybe it's just ME! :eek:


al
 
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