Pellet sizing

Head Sizing Pellets

Have been working with my brother (Jerry C.) who actually came up with the concept and is marketing (fairly successfully) the PelletGage both domestically and internationally.

After feedback from a few comments on this forum and others, Jerry did invest in a set of high quality pin gages and did find that although the tolerances of the laser cut gage holes were within specs, that the sizes labeled on the initial runs of the gases were consistently off by 0.001, probably due to the way the kerf was set up on the laser. That problem has been corrected.

I and others have looked at the rather sharp edges of the gage holes as a potential problem, and have attempted to improve its usability and reduce the tendency for the gage to shave lead on pellets larger, but very close to the size of the gage holes by polishing or chamfering the gage hole. One user used a Dremel cut off disk to dress a Dremel grinder bit to 45 deg, then, using only his fingers to turn the bit, dressed the leading edge with good results. I tried using just a felt tip, bullet shaped polishing tip with Flitz metal polish and the lowest speed on the Dremel, also with good results.

Another trick I am now using is to take the bezel off the gage and reposition it under the the plastic cover plate of the gage. This results in a few millimeters of stand-off that much more consistently align the pellet head to the gage. With a polished gage and this stand off, the "drop" of the pellet head for go/no go testing is much more reliable and reproducible for me. The downside is that turning the gage over to drop the pellet back out of the gage most often results in the skirt hanging on the elevated face plate. I find that simply using finger pressure under the pellet head and a Q-tip to guide the skirt back up and out of the gage is pretty quick and easy.

Had planned accuracy testing for .20 ga. pellets this weekend, but suffered a scope failure (Hawk Eclipse 30) on my Theoben Crusader gas ram, so I couldn't complete any conclusive testing at 30 yards (outdoors) for group size. I can say from measurments that head sizing significantly tightens the spread and consistently lowers the standard deviation of measured velocities by half or more for multiple 10-shot strings of .20 ga pellets over both a ProChronograph and a Chrony F1 (in tandem) on indoors testing. I must acknowledge that to date, I have done this only for around 100 each of .177 and .20 pellets.

As with every air rifle or powder burning rifle, we all know that specific rifles and rifle barrels have individual and sometimes peculiar preferences for specific ammo that can't easily be explained by measurement. But whether or not head sizing alone makes a significant difference in accuracy (IMO it will) has, as yet, not been established to my satisfaction by sufficient testing by me for each of my air rifles at the range.

I am however confident that:

1) There is no more accurate, more precise, or more efficient way I know of, at present, to measure pellet head size diameters for large quantities of pellets than the PelletGage,

2) There is a demonstrable and significant variation in measured head sizes of even weight-sorted, match-grade pellets, in the same lot numbers and same tins of RWS, Vogel, JSB, and Beeman pellets, and these also vary widely from the specified head size on the tin's label, for those manufactures who still or used to include that information.

3) There will be additional refinements of the gage that will further improve its performance, based on experience and customer feedback (always welcome, attention Jerry C, <pelletgage@gmail.com> )

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I measured head sizes on this partial tin of weighed Beeman FTS pellets (GemPro 50 digital scale) in two batches, before and after polishing the gage holes with Flitz and a felt-tip bit on a Dremel tool. I wanted to make sure that a burr on the 5.07 mm gage hole wasn't responsible for the bimodal distribution of head sizes. It wasn't.


. . . and Michael, regarding your comment:
"The author of the blog was able to draw a definitive conclusion about pellet head size and impact on accuracy in just three groups.... probably shot outdoors from a turd rifle that hadn't been cleaned in a 'coons age.
Keep an eye on this guy. Amazing work.....and a fabulous example of controlled scientific procedure...."


First, I readily acknowledge that, on this forum, I am on the home turf of bench rest air rifle enthusiasts, and though an outsider to that clique, I know enough to appreciate the extremes of time, money and quality equipment needed to be competitive in the world of bench rest shooters. I also know enough to occasionally come here to read what those who are more experienced and accomplished than I can teach me, usually just by lurking. . . . but really? That's a pretty elitist comment even from a bench rest shooter.

Would it be, perhaps more equitable to just say that he formed an opinion based on very limited information, and shared it? All of us would do well, of course, to take anything we read (or post?) on line with "a grain of salt", I have surely posted my share of inaccurate information and flawed opinions on line.

Amongst the "great unwashed" -- those who are also air rifle enthusiasts, including a few fledgling field trial shooters, like my brother Jerry, there are those who, yes, still occasionally shoot "turd" rifles costing a few hundred rather than a few thousand (not counting rests, bags and accessories), who usually shoot them outdoors, who still enjoy it, and who still strive to figure out how to improve their skills and results within limited budgets. It doesn't always make their opinions wrong or their efforts unworthy. You could simply disagree (and say so) without that sort of derisive-toned mocking. I suspect you aren't really that type of person off line. If you were to meet up with the author of that blog at an air gun event (I have), then I bet you would find him to be a nice enough sort as well.
 
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TCups,

I applaud your loyalty in standing with your brother. Naturally, you will understand when I do the same for my friend Mike.

There has only been one other member that accused benchrest shooters of being "elitist". He was and is from that other forum and did not get very far with such a comment. He did not get far here or on that other forum. Might explain why I am banned from that cesspool.

Air rifle benchrest absolutely demands accuracy and consistency. Most of these guys have already done all the head/skirt sizing, weighing, measuring, rolling, not to mention the ever increasing list of lubricants said to act like unicorn tears. A simple shot across the bow regarding a shoddy testing process and doing that testing outdoors is meant to help and hopefully, reduce your learning curve. Now, the "turd" rifle comment might have been for those that believe a "minute of squirrel" rifle will clean our target every day and twice on Sunday.

Allow me to give you some points I am confident of:

ANYTHING you do to the head of a pellet changes how that pellet flies.

Weighing pellets makes NO difference in accuracy or consistency.

Pellets will always be the weak link in our equipment chain, UNTIL someone makes better pellets.

My intention here was not to offend you or your brother in any way. I wish you luck and success marketing it's use. However, this is not the place to talk about results and subsequent improvement without a whole lot more to back up your or someone else's claims.
 
sgeorge, Michael, and all here:

Apologies for the tone of my earlier post if it seemed condescending or somehow simply an overt effort to merely promote or defend my brother's product. Neither was my intent.

As I posted, the comment made was elitist. That is not meant to imply that all bench rest shooters are elitist (though most tend to be perfectionists, for obvious reasons), or even that Mike, whom I've never met, is an elitist. I doubt that he is and strongly suspect he is someone I would enjoy spending time with at an air rifle match sometime, if the opportunity ever arises. And I agree with his assessment of the statistical significance of any 3 groups from any one rifle, by any shooter. If an apology is due Mike for the tone of my post, then I sincerely apologize. But rarely if ever, should there be a need to disparage another shooters equipment, even if it is a "turd" air rifle, or how he may or may not care for an air rifle (I certainly have no idea if or how often his air rifle is cleaned) or impugn the efforts of another if one disagrees with the content or conclusion (or opinion) of a post. It is sufficient, usually more effective, and certainly more courteous to disagree and either offer constructive criticism, or just disagree, say so, and leave it at that.

Your comments about pellet flight are accurate and quite true, in my experience with shooting PCP's that load with a bolt action. They don't show measurable difference in pellet accuracy from minor variations in head size or weight, at least at my level of ability to shoot. Conversely, though, heavy recoiling springers and gas ram air rifles that have a definite tight pellet fit in the breech, do require a uniform fit of the pellet head in the bore and of the skirt to the radius of the lip of the bore. Since they operate with limited volumes of compressed air compared to PCP's in what Cardew refers to as a "pop gun" mode (The Airgun from Trigger to Target"), they do, in my experience, show an observable and measurable shift in POI from any significant variation in pellet weight, tightness of fit of the pellet in the breech, or variation in consistency of seating the pellet properly. The same may also true for my single pump pneumatic, a Walther LGR, but to a much lesser degree. Since I shoot almost exclusively standing, off hand, with that and my single pump pistol, I doubt I will ever observe a measurable improvement at my level of shooting skill by weighing or sizing pellets for those. My attempts to test gage using the Walther shooting off a bench rest were awkward and inconclusive.

As for the gage doing damage to the pellet, I sincerely doubt (but do not know) that reasonably careful use of the gage can do any significant amount of mechanical damage by deformation to an out of round or inconsistently sized pellet, compared to the mechanical deformation that results from forcefully pushing a tight fitting lead pellet into the breech of an air rifle, and then seating the skirt with a pellet seating tool.

Time will tell whether my brother's pellet gage is worthy of defending or not. I do hope it turns out to be of value to some if not all shooters, and that he profits accordingly. In the meantime, and to the extent I am able to do so productively, I will continue to test, comment, if it seems appropriate, and help him improve the product, it if I can.

Again, apologies for the tone of my earlier post if it seemed condescending. I will now revert to my less obtrusive "lurking" mode, with a parting "thank you" to all here who enjoy the sport and are generous enough to choose to share their accumulated knowledge and experience with other shooters.
 
sizing pellets

Tcups, you are to be congratulated Sir on your response to this matter. It showed taste and took stones.
There are some history here that may be of value to you in understanding us. The term elitist we wear with pride and for the following reasons, a few years ago airgun was a stagnant entity. Field target was the predominant game in town shot with guns of limited accuracy. No major improvements loomed on the horizon. All serious effort was being applied by industry to the 10 meter game while the FT sport was being administered by a very limited number of persons with no real knowledge of extreme accuracy or how to achieve it. In fact air rifle completion was referred to as a "Backwater Sport" by the very forum harboring the greatest number of shooters.
When myself and a couple of others who had vast accuracy backgrounds in benchrest entered the game trying to understand the prevailing logic we hit a wall of resistance. Specifically when we started asking questions concerning accuracy enhancing methods and systems employed. They openly stated they hated benchrest shooters. Their position remained they have been in the business for forty years, know it all, and we knew nothing.
We were politely told to shut up and sit down.
We did neither..............and made a statement to the powers to be..."Those that do not embrace BR methods and science will get beat by those that do. A statement true then and true today. We could see the sport forever changed and set about doing just that. Thusly the sport was taken away from the Dremel chambering practitioners and snake oil salesmen and elevated to an applied science.

The efforts of these BR shooters and their time proven methods resulted in the fact we now hold every world record inside and out in every class. We did more in four years than did the entire industry in forty years. Yes Sir these Benchrest shooters who are often scorned because of the equipment and cost of doing business ARE the very source of every major improvement in airgun function and accuracy no matter what the class or discipline. We also know weighing pellets to enhance accuracy is a mathematical impossibility .......yet legions go right on weighing.
These crazy BR shooters won a world championship, shot the worlds first perfect target on a target the Europeans stated could never be shot clean ( we do it on a weekly basis now), formed a competitive organization and now shoot the smallest groups and scores on the planet elevating our methods and talents to a place of world recognition. We are the premiere source of accuracy world wide.
Do you believe this was accomplished by accident??? No it was not! It was however accomplished by hard, solid scientific experimentation using time proven methods. It is hard work requiring serious dedication and perseverance. It is very time consuming and expensive. It is the very reason we require solid testing methods to prove a point or item. It is insane to test pellets or make an accuracy evaluation in conditions. We have known this for years yet it is never questioned by the uninitiated. It is a waste of time and pellets and promotes false conclusions. How does one know what causes the error with so many variables? This type of testing at first glance may look most favorable however when truly evaluated it has done you a disservice. This was I believe Mikes point.
Every Airgun shooter can benefit from BR work and science........ The reverse is not true.

Again , welcome to our world and thank you for your candor, spirit and comments and hope I have enlightened you just a bit.
We sincerely appreciate your efforts to enhance the sport and hope to hear from you again.

Frank
 
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What one hopes to find

is a barrel that will shoot em right out of the tin without doing anything. I shot a rifle with one of them on it not long ago. The Barrel. This is where one needs to spend the time and money. Once one gets a "Hummer Barrel", and they do exist, one is home free. I can't see an Air Rifle ever wearing a barrel out.

Pete
 
You Get it All with the amazing pellet sizing gadget

I measure mine with an air gauge to determine the head size and I've often found that the tins marked 4.50 and 4.51 mm contain larger pellets than the tins marked 4.52 and 4.53 mm.
The air gauge can measure the head size reliably down to 0.000333 mm or less... there are 30 divisions between each 0.01 mm on the gauge.

I believe the gadget tester currently promoted as "amazing" measures head size to within an amazing 0.001"??? IMO OK for the casual FT shooter. Many of the top FT shooters use an air gauge

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The gauge measures the backpressure (resistance) to a calibrated flow of air across a pellet inside a precision die. When the gauge reads 15 psi the head size is slightly larger than 4.53 mm, a 4.50 mm pellet is used to calibrate the gauge to read 5 psi. The pellet does not typically touch the die during measurement and is centered inside the die by air pressure. Each pellet is measured twice, once rotated 90 degrees and measured again to check for roundness. I can measure head size and weigh about 100 pellets an hour with mind numbing precision.

I would believe what Michael says, he has put countless hours into testing pellets; Michael and his guns hold many records, how many records do shooters using the amazing pellet sizing gadget hold?

Boomer
 
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is a barrel that will shoot em right out of the tin without doing anything. I shot a rifle with one of them on it not long ago. The Barrel. This is where one needs to spend the time and money. Once one gets a "Hummer Barrel", and they do exist, one is home free. I can't see an Air Rifle ever wearing a barrel out.

Pete

Absolutely, I Couldn't agree more with this statement...
 
Brrels are Difficult

Some of my best shooting barrels were Tomato Stakes in a different gun.

Just about the time I believe I've learned what makes some barrels work better than others I discover I haven't learned enough.

Boomer
 
Some of my best shooting barrels were Tomato Stakes in a different gun.

Just about the time I believe I've learned what makes some barrels work better than others I discover I haven't learned enough.

Boomer

This somewhat summarizes the search for accuracy.
 
I take Mike's work on sizing as pretty much definitive. But what about sorting out defective or abnormal pellets?

During some down time this morning I used 5X surgeon's loupes with LED illumination to sort a new tin of JSB 15.89s. About 40% were set aside due to minor defects such as dented skirt, out-of round skirt, flat scuff marks, and an occasional dented or creased head. 10/500 had significantly distorted skirts and these were tossed.

I also noticed a fair amount of tiny lead flecks (<0.5mm).

It's possible the imperfect 40% shoot the same as the better 60%. Testing this would entail many indoor targets shot with both groups, and looking differences in accuracy. (One could even make a case for "double blinding" this experiment. ie, bias for or against sorting by itself could affect shooting technique and accuracy. This could be controlled by handing the shooter individual pellets randomly from each group, without the shooter's knowing which is which. eg, who has time for that?)

The 2% with markedly defective skirts could easily have accuracy issues, which may justify the sorting job's boredom :rolleyes:

Edit: added image of one of the terrible 10 from a new tin.
 

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Like Peter W. mentioned before in this same thread, it is THE BARREL where you need to put your efforts and money...
There are barrels out there that are killers no matter what you feed them out of a tin, but it is up to us to find those jewels.

Regards...

AZUARO
 
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