OK Buckos!

Would somebody care to summate what we learned with this thread thus far?

In the hubbub of debate, the wagons will form a circle. Some folks are on the inside shooting out and some folks are on the out side shooting in. No one dies, no medals are awarded but a few minor bruises are sustained . The bruised gather round friends and allies for them to mutter words of comfort and pour balm on the sore bits, and the unscathed uncircle the wagons whilst life carries on as before.

Some folks remain sniffy about the bruising, some just shrug it off.

Just about sums up life on any forum since the www. started.
 
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Let me start by saying I lurk here and post little. I'm not a second (or sixth) account. I'm an outsider looking for good info without the politics. Problem is, this and every other benchrest forum is a politics site. Be it which gunsmith you find the best, or what train of thought you decide to follow, or if the moderators are right or wrong. They are all old men acting like small school girls with a gem of information tossed in here and there. This site has loads of great info but it also has a ton of bickering for no apparent reason.

Honestly, I find the websites that run the best, regardless of the point of interest, are moderated by people who have little desire to post often, have a great deal of knowledge on the subject matter, and have the ability to stay out of most threads that aren't in blatant disrespect for the wording and meaning of the rules. When moderators want to join the debate it is no longer an unbiased (or reasonably unbiased) view on the thread. When they don't know the subject matter, say rimfire benchrest, it's hard for a moderator to truly understand what is helpful and what is sarcastic and misleading. That isn't to say a moderator shouldn't post in a forum he/she doesn't have a great deal of knowledge about, but that they may want to step away from the moderating duties when in such a place as they don't have a full grasp of the comments being made and their true meanings.

Deleting posts is an option I don't like short of something being grossly incorrect and damaging or inflammatory. I've been on many forums that hand out short term bans. As you go and act like a fool, the more you do so, the longer your ban. People straighten up or they leave. Posts don't mysteriously vanish. I think people are more offended with deleted posts than a formal warning or ban and from then have more of a chip on their shoulder with the staff, especially if the comment was questionable to begin with.

Certainly mods on all forums get a bit of the short end of the stick with a reputation but I know many that are nothing but respected. That is missing here and honestly it seems to be an issue that is due to the moderator(s) rather than the forum posters. Moderators shouldn't defend their actions to the common posters. They answer up the chain. When they try to defend themselves down to those they enforce the rules to, the masses lose respect for the moderator, especially when not seeing eye to eye with the decision. Adding that to a moderator who is relatively a newbie with the subject matter and people lose faith in a given moderator's judgement and decision making.

I don't honestly care what happens. I can live with sarcasm and disagreements. What I don't like most is when people add a smiley face to a blatantly cruel post. If I haven't followed the last 30 threads between the two people posting I can't tell if it's a joke between friends or two people trying to hurt the other's reputation. I don't know any person on this or any other shooting forum. I don't know who are good buddies in real life and who are competing for a similar market share. All I know are the words posted on this and other forums. I spend the biggest bulk of my time trying to figure out who is honestly upset with who and who is just teasing a friend. I don't mind if people want to keep secrets on the knowledge they've found. I enjoy what info/knowledge is shared. I'll continue to lurk here as long as knowledge keeps being shared, even if in small bits between a mass of arguing.

One thing is for certain, regardless of if you are a mod or not, most people don't see themselves or their comments as wrong. If they did, they wouldn't have done or said what they did. Many times we need to step back and look at what we are doing and if it is going to make anyone else better off or at the worst indifferent.
 
Would somebody care to summate what we learned with this thread thus far?

What I have learned is Charles is a good guy who puts his personal view and influence in his moderating, that Wilbur will stick with his friends even if they asked him to shut down the forum, and Wilbur is perfectly OK with deception and really thinks it has a place in this forum.I also learned that Hambone isnt going to quit pushing the envelope.
 
Perhaps ok is a bit much, I think understands with a bit of lesser of available evils, might be more appropriate. And Wilbur, what I learned constitutes the 5th rule of internet forums, "no good deed goes unpunnished".
 
.I also learned that Hambone isnt going to quit pushing the envelope.

Aw shucks Mikey You's sure know how to say the nicest things to a gal ..............[video]http://images.paraorkut.com/img/pics/animations/a/angelina_jolie-424.gif[/video]
 
Perhaps ok is a bit much, I think understands with a bit of lesser of available evils, might be more appropriate. And Wilbur, what I learned constitutes the 5th rule of internet forums, "no good deed goes unpunnished".

Wilbur said "Currently there are several users with multiple user IDs - some as many as six and I gave up trying to count the IDs some of the spammers have registered. The difference is that I don't care how many IDs a non-spammer has and I can block the spammers to some extent. Wait...I don't care how many IDs as long as they are not used to be disruptive."

Now Tim if that isnt saying it is perfectly OK with Wilbur then I really dont know what is.I think OK was a mild word.
 
Charles . . . puts his personal view and influence in his moderating . . .
I sort of take exception to that. A moderator's sole "power" is to delete posts. I have deleted only posts where one person insulted another. Now, sometimes the person being insulted was me, and it's true I've deleted a few of those. I've let many more go. Partly depends on the tone -- "When you call me that, smile."

IIRC, on 2 occasions I put a caution ("I'm going to delete this if this continues") in posts, but other moderators got fed up & deleted them.

Or did you rather mean a moderator shouldn't express a personal opinion?
 
Wilbur said "Currently there are several users with multiple user IDs - some as many as six and I gave up trying to count the IDs some of the spammers have registered. The difference is that I don't care how many IDs a non-spammer has and I can block the spammers to some extent. Wait...I don't care how many IDs as long as they are not used to be disruptive."

Now Tim if that isnt saying it is perfectly OK with Wilbur then I really dont know what is.I think OK was a mild word.

I believe it was mentioned there are some legit reasons for multiples. I'm not professing to know but willing to accept it. Truth be told if ANYBODY wanted to be somewhat snarky, how hard would it be with mulpiple IP address' as in my PC and Smartphone. Hell if you begin to go nuts here you need a defence dept security clearance. In reality I make it my business to usually find out who's behind the user name and deceptive crap is often pretty obvious but everywhere I go I use my name.
 
Let me start by saying I lurk here and post little. I'm not a second (or sixth) account. I'm an outsider looking for good info without the politics. Problem is, this and every other benchrest forum is a politics site. Be it which gunsmith you find the best, or what train of thought you decide to follow, or if the moderators are right or wrong. They are all old men acting like small school girls with a gem of information tossed in here and there. This site has loads of great info but it also has a ton of bickering for no apparent reason.

Honestly, I find the websites that run the best, regardless of the point of interest, are moderated by people who have little desire to post often, have a great deal of knowledge on the subject matter, and have the ability to stay out of most threads that aren't in blatant disrespect for the wording and meaning of the rules. When moderators want to join the debate it is no longer an unbiased (or reasonably unbiased) view on the thread. When they don't know the subject matter, say rimfire benchrest, it's hard for a moderator to truly understand what is helpful and what is sarcastic and misleading. That isn't to say a moderator shouldn't post in a forum he/she doesn't have a great deal of knowledge about, but that they may want to step away from the moderating duties when in such a place as they don't have a full grasp of the comments being made and their true meanings.

Deleting posts is an option I don't like short of something being grossly incorrect and damaging or inflammatory. I've been on many forums that hand out short term bans. As you go and act like a fool, the more you do so, the longer your ban. People straighten up or they leave. Posts don't mysteriously vanish. I think people are more offended with deleted posts than a formal warning or ban and from then have more of a chip on their shoulder with the staff, especially if the comment was questionable to begin with.

Certainly mods on all forums get a bit of the short end of the stick with a reputation but I know many that are nothing but respected. That is missing here and honestly it seems to be an issue that is due to the moderator(s) rather than the forum posters. Moderators shouldn't defend their actions to the common posters. They answer up the chain. When they try to defend themselves down to those they enforce the rules to, the masses lose respect for the moderator, especially when not seeing eye to eye with the decision. Adding that to a moderator who is relatively a newbie with the subject matter and people lose faith in a given moderator's judgement and decision making.

I don't honestly care what happens. I can live with sarcasm and disagreements. What I don't like most is when people add a smiley face to a blatantly cruel post. If I haven't followed the last 30 threads between the two people posting I can't tell if it's a joke between friends or two people trying to hurt the other's reputation. I don't know any person on this or any other shooting forum. I don't know who are good buddies in real life and who are competing for a similar market share. All I know are the words posted on this and other forums. I spend the biggest bulk of my time trying to figure out who is honestly upset with who and who is just teasing a friend. I don't mind if people want to keep secrets on the knowledge they've found. I enjoy what info/knowledge is shared. I'll continue to lurk here as long as knowledge keeps being shared, even if in small bits between a mass of arguing.

One thing is for certain, regardless of if you are a mod or not, most people don't see themselves or their comments as wrong. If they did, they wouldn't have done or said what they did. Many times we need to step back and look at what we are doing and if it is going to make anyone else better off or at the worst indifferent.

I can agree with this. I have posted in only one thread, my introduction. It was deleted.with no explaination. I'm new and have no idea what I did that was against the rules. I intended to not post here but I saw a reference on a much friendlier forum and came over to see if things might get better, but I'm not sure it will.

Oh well.
 
I can agree with this. I have posted in only one thread, my introduction. It was deleted.with no explaination. I'm new and have no idea what I did that was against the rules. I intended to not post here but I saw a reference on a much friendlier forum and came over to see if things might get better, but I'm not sure it will.

Oh well.
I don't remember it. Did you start the thread? One thing that can and does happen is if the original poster decides to delete his/her first post, the whole thread is deleted, no moderator involvement.

It also happens that there can be good stuff in a thread, and a bad as well (usually insults, sometimes product bashing). Sometimes a moderator will just trash the whole thread, which is a pity. We can delete individual posts, but are also human.
 
Quite honestly sir, after reading this thread, do you think the way new people were being treated will change for the better?
I have no idea. I think the level of insults and voiced dismissals will drop, but people on the forum may not be interested in what interests you. Good place for match reports, not good for gunsmithing, & indeterminate on other technical matters. It will be what interests the people who frequent here.
 
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Well I see this morning that my ip was banned. So I guess that decides for me huh. No explanations and no reasons.
 
Well I see this morning that my ip was banned. So I guess that decides for me huh. No explanations and no reasons.


Not trying to be a wise guy, just confused. How did you make this post if you're banned?

Ken
 
I'm a systems admin. I have 500 pc's on my network and 5 sub domains. That means I can change ip's at will.
So I guess my account will be terminated soon.
 
I assure you that your IP was not blocked. There are several IPs in the blocked list because of the recent spam attack. If you would offer a range of IPs that you use I can look at the list again to be sure. But..the IP of your posts has been the same for all posts on this thread - including the last one.
 
I sort of take exception to that. A moderator's sole "power" is to delete posts. I have deleted only posts where one person insulted another. Now, sometimes the person being insulted was me, and it's true I've deleted a few of those. I've let many more go. Partly depends on the tone -- "When you call me that, smile."

IIRC, on 2 occasions I put a caution ("I'm going to delete this if this continues") in posts, but other moderators got fed up & deleted them.

Or did you rather mean a moderator shouldn't express a personal opinion?

I spent a goodly number of years being involved as either an elected official or in Municipal Management. In those capacities, dealt with Moderators of Public Meetings quite a few times. It has long been my opinion that a Moderator should not participate in the conversation of the meeting they are running and in fact , in Maine, it is not legal to do so. The only way to be above the fray is to stay out of it. One can not appear to be objective if they are involved. Remember, the perception of impropriety is often worse than impropriety itself.
 
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