Need Help With a Tuner

[BlackwellADB]

Where the crown should be ???????????????

I swear by this amazing device!

Rob Carnell
Sydney, Australia

What is the opinion of you tuner users in regard to where the crown should be in relation to the tuner?? Beggs design screws on the barrel, as pictured in the post above by Rob Carnell, and puts the tuner behind the crown on the muzzle. The clamp on ones, like Harrels and Bukys, screw on and clamp where the tuner is after the crown and muzzle. Has anyone come up with testing that shows which one is more effective or easier to use??? BTW, I am asking about center fire only.

 

[jackie schmidt]

What is the opinion of you tuner users in regard to where the crown should be in relation to the tuner?? Beggs design screws on the barrel, as pictured in the post above by Rob Carnell, and puts the tuner behind the crown on the muzzle. The clamp on ones, like Harrels and Bukys, screw on and clamp where the tuner is after the crown and muzzle. Has anyone come up with testing that shows which one is more effective or easier to use??? BTW, I am asking about center fire only.

My tuner extends past the barrel about 1 inch. It is screwed on and clamps to secure it firmly. I can not produce any scientific or engineering data on whether this is good or bad, as I am neither a scientist or an engineer. It's easy to adjust while sitting at the Bench,and it works.

The resolution of my I-Pad doesn't pick up the threads that well, which is .900 36 TPI, 2 inches long.


http://benchrest.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=17460&stc=1&d=1456065139

http://benchrest.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=17461&stc=1&d=1456065403

http://benchrest.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=17462&stc=1&d=1456065642

 

[Chism G]

Tuners

Over the past several years, I have seen a variety of barrel tuner designs. The owners all swear that these things work. In some cases ,the match results speak for themselves. In some cases,I have personally witnessed some of these adornments(Tuners) being hurriedly removed by the owner, during a registered Match. Which leads me to suspect that tuners don't always work. Probably,operator error.

In the pursuit of extreme accuracy,tuner designs,adjustments are still a work in progress. Thats a good thing.

I have a dream that one day, through the diligent work of some of the brightest minds in tuner designs,there will evolve a user friendly tuner for people who are struggling,trying to keep their rifle in tune,in the heat of competition. Who knows,it might help grow the sport. At least it will help reduce the accusations of the number of out of tune rifles at
Benchrest matches.


Glenn

 

[jackie schmidt]

Over the past several years, I have seen a variety of barrel tuner designs. The owners all swear that these things work. In some cases ,the match results speak for themselves. In some cases,I have personally witnessed some of these adornments(Tuners) being hurriedly removed by the owner, during a registered Match. Which leads me to suspect that tuners don't always work. Probably,operator error.

In the pursuit of extreme accuracy,tuner designs,adjustments are still a work in progress. Thats a good thing.

I have a dream that one day, through the diligent work of some of the brightest minds in tuner designs,there will evolve a user friendly tuner for people who are struggling,trying to keep their rifle in tune,in the heat of competition. Who knows,it might help grow the sport. At least it will help reduce the accusations of the number of out of tune rifles at
Benchrest matches.


Glenn

Glenn, I have always said, (to the dismay of many shooters), that at any given Match, 75 % of the Rifles are not in a competitive tune.

We tend to describe "competitive tune" as that magical "sub .200 inch aging capability".

Look at the results from any match, whether it is a local Region Shoot, The Supershoot, or The Nationals. It doesn't take you to get far down the page until the aggs are getting into the .300 range and more while at the same time the top couple are solidly on the "teens".

Do that many shooters have such ill Bench Skills and Condition Reading Ability? I doubt it. More times than not, the combination just isn't working.

Benchrest Shooters have been chasing this holy grail of accuracy for decades. There is no easy fix, no magic pill. The shooters that continually shoot small aggs, or have high X counts, do so because more times than not they realize this two facts of Extreme Accuracy Shooting.

 

[Chism G]

Tuners

You can blame rifle tune when you’re not fairing well in a match,when in fact it could be a number of unsuspected problems. In this game ,just pick one of the many variables. The names that you always see at the top of the leader board,are the people who have invested a lot of time and energy into polishing their shooting skills,tuning skills and equipment functionality. Same as in any Sport.

I know how to tune my rifle. My problem is, keeping it in tune,all day long.

There have been times when my rifle goes in and out of tune,during the day, without any changes being made by me. Tuners may be the answer to some of my problems,maybe not. I’m ready to give em a try. Nothing ventured,nothing gained.

My biggest problem is not enough range time.
You can't expect to consistently excel at this or any sport if you don’t put the time in to get to know it.

when I used to play Golf,I would not bet with a guy that was always hanging around the club house,no matter when i showed up.


Glenn

 

[Greyfox]

You can blame rifle tune when you’re not fairing well in a match,when in fact it could be a number of unsuspected problems. In this game ,just pick one of the many variables. The names that you always see at the top of the leader board,are the people who have invested a lot of time and energy into polishing their shooting skills,tuning skills and equipment functionality. Same as in any Sport.

I know how to tune my rifle. My problem is, keeping it in tune,all day long.

There have been times when my rifle goes in and out of tune,during the day, without any changes being made by me. Tuners may be the answer to some of my problems,maybe not. I’m ready to give em a try. Nothing ventured,nothing gained.

My biggest problem is not enough range time.
You can't expect to consistently excel at this or any sport if you don’t put the time in to get to know it.

when I used to play Golf,I would not bet with a guy that was always hanging around the club house,no matter when i showed up.


Glenn

Glenn,
I think Jackie has isolated the problem pretty well. Many people get tuners expecting them to eliminate shooter error (even though they don't admit it to them selves). As has been said many times before, tuners won't make a mediocre barrel into a hummer. And it won't read wind flags for you either. That being said, my experience over 6-7 years with tuners is that they always work and they all work the same way. If you don't have ridiculous conditions, it's easy to eliminate the vertical. Which is all I expect them to do. The rest is up to me and many, maybe even most of the time I'm just not up to the task.

Rick

 

[Wilbur]

Too many people believe that their ability is some sort of factor. I suppose it really is a factor.....but not that big of a factor. A 250 rifle will beat a 300 rifle day in and day out...no matter what you screw on the 300 rifle.

Don't waste any time trying to reason with me as my mind is firmly made!

 

[Greyfox]

Too many people believe that their ability is some sort of factor. I suppose it really is a factor.....but not that big of a factor. A 250 rifle will beat a 300 rifle day in and day out...no matter what you screw on the 300 rifle.

Don't waste any time trying to reason with me as my mind is firmly made!

Wilbur,We can agree to disagree about this one. When you have 15-25 mph winds that are constantly swirling and switching, the best barrel ever made won't win if the shooter can't get a clue on what the flags are telling him. OTOH-the shooter with a decent barrel who understands will do alright.

Rick

 

[Wilbur]

So you're sayin' it's the fellow shootin' rather than the rifle. OK with me!

 

[Greyfox]

So you're sayin' it's the fellow shootin' rather than the rifle. OK with me!

Well, sort of, but not perzackly. What I'm sayin' is, a mediocre rifle in the hands of a shooter with superior flag reading skills will beat a great rifle in the hands of a shooter with poor flag skills, on a day with challenging wind. Of course, I'm a score shooter with poor wind reading skills, so that should explain my POV. As Danny Hensley said to me one day after I had shot an "8". "Richard, that rifle might shoot through a condition, but I don't think it'll shoot through a switch".

as always YMMV,
Rick

 

[Rob Carnell]

This is what I like

Thanks for the Pic Rob. Thats a pretty strong endorsement.

What do you like most about this device?


Glenn

I can load at home for a 2 day match.

Or at the very least, I can load for a whole day match before commence fire.

I always shoot the same load and just adjust the tuner to remove vertical.

Then I can spend the time I am not loading looking through a spotting scope and looking at flags.

This makes more sense to me, YMMV!

Rob.

 

[Chism G]

Tuners

I can load at home for a 2 day match.

Or at the very least, I can load for a whole day match before commence fire.

I always shoot the same load and just adjust the tuner to remove vertical.

Then I can spend the time I am not loading looking through a spotting scope and looking at flags.

This makes more sense to me, YMMV!

Rob.

Thanks Rob..... My reason for asking... Your observations,and others, are very important to people who have not tried the Beggs Tuner.

We are fortunate,in this sport, to have access to an unlimited selection of gadgets. I think,most people want to believe that tuners work. Why shouldn't they? The bottom line is,some tuners are easier to figure out than others. in my opinion,that's why Some designs succeed,some don't.

it's almost impossible to try each and every device that hits the market. Your first hand experience,with tuners, is about as close as some will ever come to witnessing the capability of Mr Beggs design. I am going to start playing around with tuners again,with a renewed curiosity.

Thanks again.


Glenn

 

[mwezell]

I'd like to dispel the notion that tuners only affect vertical. That's not the case with any tuner, on any gun, that I've tested them on. Yes, because of gravity and the fact that a mass is attached to the muzzle end of the barrel, the effect is vertically biased...but they certainly do more than just vertical. In use, if or when the gun just begins to go out of tune, it will show up as mostly vertical. When completely out of tune though, IME, they all create big round groups. It only stands to reason that this would be the case and has proven out to be that way in all of my time with many different tuners. We must remember that all of the drawings and FEA movies fail to show all muzzle movement and directions...hence the big round groups when way out of tune. The only explanation I can offer for this notion that they can only affect vertical is two fold. One being misinformation..likely due to making adjustments that are too big to see the groups form and change shape at small enough intervals to see all of what happens to the groups incrementally.

Another notion that I find to be incorrect is that they are difficult to learn how to use. I've said this before but will say it again...I can show someone how to get full potential from my tuners in about 15 minutes...IF we have a proven gun and load to begin with. If we don't have those variables established, then we are dealing with more than just the issue of adjusting tune with a tuner.

I'll briefly describe my tuning method here:
If starting from scratch, I set the tuner where it is all the way rearward and then back it off to zero..or any number that suits you, but don't let temptation make you adjust it until you have established a good load in the gun first.

Once you have it shooting dots, then move the tuner ONLY 1 MARK AT A TIME, shooting 3 shot groups in good conditions. Do this until you see the tune go from where you began, with a perfectly tuned load and rifle, to the biggest groups the tuner will make it shoot. IME, with a very good br rifle and a 23-24" HV barrel, this will likely be high 3's to low 4's. Yes, big! So, the tuner has so far shown you (hopefully), small groups in the zero's or ones, all the way to high 3's to low 4's.
Don't stop there, though. Keep shooting 3 shot groups and keep moving the tuner in the same direction. What will soon develop is you full range of tuner movement need to take the gun from node to node..for lack of a better term. Once you establish this, you have some valuable info respective to your gun and tuner. This info, IME, carries over to different loads quite accurately.

What you should see will go something like this...The gun was in perfect tune at zero on the tuner and was shooting it's worst at around mark 4. It began to come back and was back in perfect tune again at about mark 8 on the tuner. What you'll likely notice is that from mark 0 to mark 1, you see mostly vertical and that the groups are not bad at all in the range..still pretty small but out vertically, for the most part. From marks 1- 2 the groups start to open pretty big...bigger than you'd ever want in a match, and the difference is very clear between your perfectly tuned rifle that was shooting great at zero on the tuner. This window is as far as I've ever had to move a tuner during a match..and it's rare to have to move it that far. This range is of course. 2 marks, or .002" of tuner travel...but we're not done yet. As you move the tuner on to mark 3, the groups will either be stair stepped or big and ugly round groups..on to mark 4, more of the same, just bigger. The reason you want to know what it looks like is two things..One, you want to recognize the state of tune that you are in at a given tuner setting. Two, is that if you don't know which way to turn the tuner, this will help because you can literally go either way 4 marks from completely out of tune, and be back in! This point holds pretty much true if you are only out a small amount too but it is more tricky to know which way to go from there. Time is the best way to learn what to do when you're only out of tune by a small amount, but as a rule, shorten the tuner as the temps go up! You do this by knowing how far out of tune you are based on the group size and shape. I look forward to hearing Gene Beggs' report from the tunnel, in this regard. I'm confident that he'll find the same thing as I have, but likely with somewhat different numbers due to his tuner being both lighter and behind the muzzle.

For me, I seldom move the tuner after the first warm-up target. There are a couple of reasons for this, that work for me. First, it's very likely that conditions are best in the morning and that the temp change is greatest between the first target of the day and the last target of the previous match the gun was shot in. I try to take advantage of the better conditions of the early warm-up target to get tuned up in..if need be. FWIW, I often wind up at the same setting that I had left the tuner on from the previous outing. That's part of the beauty of tuners, the wide and forgiving tune window that they afford. Generally, a heavier tuner gives a wider tune window than a light tuner. Of course the other benefit is being able to adjust at the bench for large or small tune issues. I agree with what others have said about going pre-loaded. It totally makes sense and works well for me to do just that, adjusting the tuner if or when needed to achieve and/or maintain tune.

It's that simple and tuners do work. The only down side is the extra weight. They come in different shapes, sizes and weights. Heavier is better to a point, assuming you can make weight. There is such a thing as being too heavy and that gets tricky to even determine. The only thing consistent about a tuner that is too heavy is that the aren't consistent. Makes no sense to me, but flyers seem to be indicative of too much weight. Of course, that makes it hard to determine, being random..seemingly. The good news in this regard is that the range of weights that work well on typical br contour barrels is pretty wide and forgiving. From what I've seen, you're pretty safe up to about 10-11 ounces on a typical HV contour barrel.

One more thing, while I'm thinking about it.. Some have claimed that tuners that extend beyond the muzzle seem to change the poi more so than tuners that locate behind the muzzle. I feel like this is to be expected and is not a bad thing unless you have no sighters. I think it is about weight and leverage. The heavier and/or further out tuner will have more control of the muzzle and will create more displacement. This speaks to why heavier tuners seem to yield a wider tune window, though. All I can say is that I see displacement no different than anything else that can affect poi. That's why they put turrets on scopes...but the difference is small.

That's all for now. Good thread!--Mike Ezell

 

[Stewart]

Powder differences

Mike what have you found for the Span 0 to 0 with Lt32 compared to N133? In your example (actual?) was the number of the Span .008 of an inch?
Stewart

 

[mwezell]

Mike what have you found for the Span 0 to 0 with Lt32 compared to N133? In your example (actual?) was the number of the Span .008 of an inch?
Stewart

Stewart, that's actually a very good question. Two things to remember..One is that the .008" number I gave previously is an actual number that is very feasible, and consistent, but it is based on a 23 inch hv contour barrel. It has held true with different powders and different cartridges. That number is from node to node, not in tune to out of tune. That said, different powders do have different characteristics that affect how well they maintain tune. 133 seems to be unusual compared to most other powders. For lack of a better way to say it.."it's hell when it's well". IME, it goes out drastically as compared to others, when it goes out. That has nothing to do with how far you should move the tuner, but may with if or when you need to move it. IME, it does. That said, we have sighters. I recommend we use them.

 

[Stewart]

Powder and Span.

I am glad you like the question, just to make sure we are communicating. Your experience on your barrels and cartridges a movement of .009 movement will create a full span. 0 to 0 Meaning the gun will be in near perfect tune. Like wise if I move .004 or so I will shoot a ugly group.

I have shot 10,000s of rounds in the tunnel and on my guns full out of tune will be about .380, when in tune .050 or so perfectly shot. Like you I believe we have been jumping tunes, and that the length of barrel will affect the total span. I have asked Gene who shoots roughly a 22" barrel (correct me if I am wrong) to reshoot his test with N133 he shot his first test with Lt 32. With very light tuners. I once shot in the tunnel a whole work week, testing 30 barrels which I cambered myself, all would shoot very small in tune, most would shoot on the same seating depth, and near the same setting using the same load. Not one failed to not shoot .010 or smaller most of the time with one set of cases. By the way I used the cases over and over on each barrel to barrel. When we get better weather I will shoot the same test here. Gene let us know!

I have tracked the tune with density altitude, what atmosphere measurement have you used successfully? Others use only humidity? others Temp? When we all pin this down we will have changed the game for the better. What impact have you seen after you clean at the range?

Richard do you agree with these findings?

Thank you all for what you are doing.

Stewart

 

[mwezell]

I am glad you like the question, just to make sure we are communicating. Your experience on your barrels and cartridges a movement of .009 movement will create a full span. 0 to 0 Meaning the gun will be in near perfect tune. Like wise if I move .004 or so I will shoot a ugly group.

I have shot 10,000s of rounds in the tunnel and on my guns full out of tune will be about .380, when in tune .050 or so perfectly shot. Like you I believe we have been jumping tunes, and that the length of barrel will affect the total span. I have asked Gene who shoots roughly a 22" barrel (correct me if I am wrong) to reshoot his test with N133 he shot his first test with Lt 32. With very light tuners. I once shot in the tunnel a whole work week, testing 30 barrels which I cambered myself, all would shoot very small in tune, most would shoot on the same seating depth, and near the same setting using the same load. Not one failed to not shoot .010 or smaller most of the time with one set of cases. By the way I used the cases over and over on each barrel to barrel. When we get better weather I will shoot the same test here. Gene let us know!

I have tracked the tune with density altitude, what atmosphere measurement have you used successfully? Others use only humidity? others Temp? When we all pin this down we will have changed the game for the better. What impact have you seen after you clean at the range?

Richard do you agree with these findings?

Thank you all for what you are doing.

Stewart

Stewart, Im having trouble deciphering your post. Are you saying that you were seeing .330 between in and out of tune? I'm not sure where .009 came from...or if you are agreeing or disagreeing. Can you clear that up for me? I'm most happy to try and help but not argue.

 

[Stewart]

Group size

Of course I will try to do better and thank you in advance. No arguing, just trying to get down to just a short clear expectation. You are doing fine work and I will print this and go shoot it very carefully.

Verify please we are talking about a 6ppc cartridge to begin with? Or 6 Beggs in Genes case.

When in tune and in a near nothing condition, my rifles will shoot very small, about .100 or about on the target and lets say the tuner is set to a mark of zero at that time. Later when I am fully out of tune the gun will shoot a large group of .380 on the target and according to you and now Gene I only need to move the tuner about .004 from zero to make it really shoot bad. Is that a correct example? Likewise If I continue and move the tuner a total of .008 the rifle will return to a small group, correct? Several guns, barrels and several powders you have tested have held closely to this amount of movement, Correct?

If correct I am very happy and just need to test my rifles, and barrels to come to a specific Span(node to node) for those lengths, weights etc., then tie it to a tracking method.

Secondly how do you track the change during the day, what measurements and tools?
Have you seen a big impact after cleaning?

Again thanks for enduring my poor writing and detail,

Stewart

 

[mwezell]

Of course I will try to do better and thank you in advance. No arguing, just trying to get down to just a short clear expectation. You are doing fine work and I will print this and go shoot it very carefully.

Verify please we are talking about a 6ppc cartridge to begin with? Or 6 Beggs in Genes case. It makes no difference what the cartridge is...but yes, as well as most any typical br cartridge, and a few others as well, in both long and short range guns. To say that one cartridge needs further tuner movement than another is saying that the natural frequency of vibration is different. I know of nothing based on science that would support that. Now, how often you may need to move it, based seemingly on the powder, may well be different. 133 seems to be an anomaly in this regard. I think it is so with or without a tuner, though.

When in tune and in a near nothing condition, my rifles will shoot very small, about .100 or about on the target and lets say the tuner is set to a mark of zero at that time. Later when I am fully out of tune the gun will shoot a large group of .380 That's a lot of difference..more than I've experienced attributable to conditions alone, but with a tuner. IME, the tuner is capable of taking the gun further out of tune than any non-wind condition. on the target and according to you and now Gene I only need to move the tuner about .004 from zero to make it really shoot bad. Is that a correct example? The .004" is a real number that I have seen hold very near the same on most barrels with my tuner. But, barrel stiffness, tuner weight and location all matter in this regard and a blanket statement is not possible IMHO. My example of .004 was specifically related to a 24" HV contour barrel and MY tuner. The result I mentioned is very typical of the amount of tuner movement in a given condition to take said barrel from completely in tune, to completely out of tune. Likewise If I continue and move the tuner a total of .008 The .008" example is from node to node..not in tune to out of tune. the rifle will return to a small group, correct? Several guns, barrels and several powders you have tested have held closely to this amount of movement, Correct? That's a fair statement. This has held pretty much true across a wide range of guns, barrels and calibers..but it is not meant to be specific to all guns, etc. Small differences should not be unexpected.

If correct I am very happy and just need to test my rifles, and barrels to come to a specific Span(node to node) for those lengths, weights etc., then tie it to a tracking method.

Secondly how do you track the change during the day, what measurements and tools? I use to track by temps alone. I could do so with a fair degree of repeatability, if need be. It was done more to see if I could do it in a practical fashion without the need for an elaborate weather station, more than of necessity. As long as we have sighters, it's unnecessary information. It's simply so easy to shoot a group on the sighter target and make 1 or 2 adjustments if needed, before going to the record.
Have you seen a big impact after cleaning? Me, clean?? LOL! Never paid it any attention. In theory, if you are getting any degree of compensation, it should make less difference than without a tuner. FWIW.

Again thanks for enduring my poor writing and detail,

Stewart

Thanks Stewart! I tried to answer briefly in red. I hope it helps.

 

[Stewart]

Test plan

Well that was clear thank you. I have been moving too far it appears and for years. I believe a 30 ppc and a 6 ppc has a different movement requirement. It could be the hole size in the barrel or a combination of things. But from your work I will create a test plan, have it shot in a tunnel, and in open air one thousandth at a time. This I have not done on a 6mm that finely, but have done it on a 30.

I will set up a gun the very next time to the range with good conditions. First shoot a tune test one thousandth at a time.
then use that tune to establish a cycle I call span (node to node)
then with the gun in tune trace the tuner change required to stay in tune each hour and log Density altitude, Temp and Humidity as I go. That should give us an Idea of click per DA unit.
Then repeat that for the two main powders several times. Then buy more barrels because that will burn up some on the way. Grrrrrrr.
I will let you know what I find.

thank you for all your help.

Stewart