Nbrsa

[C.L. Peterson]

Embarrassing

There are many matches that the results are posted days--weeks--months later, some never get posted.
We all like to see/read match results.
Its a barometer of skill level of this organization.
If Steve Lee is not in attendance your match results may not make print.
Most clubs notify their shooters of results but the rest of our organization would like match results also.
In this day of almost instant information availability we can do better. Do we want to???
NBRSA needs to consider communication advancements. (My opinion)
ie: 1.Web site for match results thats user friendly for match directors(Or their designate)
2. Photos encouraged and posted of members and ranges
3.Membership directory with information for members to contact each other
I don't have an opinion whether NBRSA adds to their web site or they/we opt to use Benchrest Central

Thanks again to Steve Lee for assisting us with communications. (Also for Bughole)
CLP

 

[zippy06]

I agree, that it probably was playful banter, but to someone a little shy or timid.... it could have gone another way. Again, I wasn't offended by it at all.

And yes I'll get to the first one my schedule allows me to, I nearly attended John's match at Shelby county in October but couldn't get my equipment wired up in time to make it. John's a good fella, I've shot with him a couple times. WD

PM sent....

 

[zippy06]

Another point of view

We don’t need to forget this is the top fuel drag racing of shooting sports
It is not a club match or a prs match or an f class match this is Benchrest !
We don’t need to minimize what it is!
The ultimate in the quest for perfection it is not for everyone.
It will never attract the masses it’s to much of a challenge in a lot of areas

There are weekend bracket and street racers and then there is the NHRA and racers like John Force
or shooters like Tony Boyer Wayne Campbell Jack Neary Bob Scarborough Bart Sauter Billy Stevens

you can’t just show up and race John Force

That's the beauty of NBRSA. I can race with Jack, Bob Jr., Bart and Billy...well, maybe not Bart and Billy. They don't come up north much.....

 

[Dennis L Martin]

Mandatory option?

Based on what you said there is a very limited number of participants who can be competitive then. When the difference between first and third place can be a few thousandths of an inch, that's pretty tight. I've shot bullseye pistol, skeet and trap, Palma, Service Rifle and Fullbore. All of those disciplines have a classification system for shooters. I'm sure this subject has been beat to death so I'm not going suggest it for short range benchrest. It's just that if you look at the scoresheets, there's a small subset of the competitors winning. I don't know what the true percentage might be, but maybe 10 - 15 percent. The other 85 percent hang in there for the fun or personal challenge. But that can get old after a while. I'm now resurrecting dormant guns in my guns safe to have fun with them. I remember one of the matches at the Whittington Center had a mandatory cash option of $100. Did that once and never again. It was just throwing money away as I knew there was no way in hell that I could win anything against all those top shooters. I was just donating. So I never went to that match again. I'm beginning to feel that way about benchrest in general.

I've shot lots of matches at the Whittington center and I have never seen a MANDATORY cash option. I've payed into every cash option they have at the Whittington matches but I don't remember any of them being mandatory. That's why they are called an OPTION. The match reports have a $ next to the names of the people who payed into the option. I don't recall seeing that next to every competitors name on the reports.

 

[adamsgt]

I've shot lots of matches at the Whittington center and I have never seen a MANDATORY cash option. I've payed into every cash option they have at the Whittington matches but I don't remember any of them being mandatory. That's why they are called an OPTION. The match reports have a $ next to the names of the people who payed into the option. I don't recall seeing that next to every competitors name on the reports.

Well, the one I attended there I was told I had to pay the cash option. As I had already traveled 600 miles to get there, I paid, but didn't attend any of those later. Now this first one was probably more than five or six years ago. They may have changed that but as I've never attended that match since I don't know.

 

[chriscovell]

You're right

I have been shooting Nbrsa since 1984.
Over the years I have seen to many
Public Range’s near large city’s close.
That is where I think it all starts.
1 day no travel easy to shoot match and the go home.
Very little time from family or other obligations.
Some even go preloaded. Cost are real low.
Over the years that’s where I saw the most new shooters come from.
You look at the Ben Avery range in Phoenix and you see new shooters all the time.
Traveling to matches I think is not going to change for a long time.

I met Lou many years ago at San Gabriel, He and a few others were very welcoming, Myself and John Verhagen started shooting together and at first we were intimidated. We really did appreciate everyone being so helpful. I took a few years away from the rifle, and just a few months ago decided to get back into it.

Now I am in North Texas, I found a new bunch of guys that are very helpful. Glenn Chism has been an awesome resource. Than you all!!!

 

[Wilbur]

Read the rules - please! I haven't read any rules for quite a while, but if it's an IBS or NBRSA registered match, you don't have to pay more than the fee defined in the rule book. Cash option fees are entirely up to the competitor. If I'm wrong about that please say so!!!!

 

[Hunter]

No, I don't think matches are overpriced when you are talking about the fees for running the match. But forcing me to throw an additional $100 into a pot I have no chance of winning isn't for me. If people want to do side bets that's fine as long as you're not forced to do it as a condition for entry in the match..

Conceptually, other than the "optional" language, is there any real difference between a cash option fee and a trophy fee? Same result -- the money/trophies go to the "Top Guns."

 

[Richard]

Conceptually, other than the "optional" language, is there any real difference between a cash option fee and a trophy fee? Same result -- the money/trophies go to the "Top Guns."

As well they should. Otherwise just give everybody a participation ribbon and be done with it.
I and many others strive to be a "top gun" isn't that what a match is supposed to be?
I have said it before, it's hard to play at the top. Wouldn't want it any other way.

Richard

 

[Dennis L Martin]

As well they should. Otherwise just give everybody a participation ribbon and be done with it.
I and many others strive to be a "top gun" isn't that what a match is supposed to be?
I have said it before, it's hard to play at the top. Wouldn't want it any other way.

Richard

You’re exactly right Richard. Back when I was shooting more, I was competitive. I wasn’t a top gun but I won here and there in Raton, and Midland, sometimes. Cash option? You bet! I’m betting on myself every time. If I don’t think I can do it then I never will. Do you ever remember a mandatory cash option at Raton?

 

[Richard]

Dennis,

No I don't ever remember anything being mandatory. I always did the cash option also. Figured it would make me try harder

Richard

 

[adamsgt]

Conceptually, other than the "optional" language, is there any real difference between a cash option fee and a trophy fee? Same result -- the money/trophies go to the "Top Guns."

Well, I may have misspoke. This particular match was one I had not attended before. All the other matches I had attended gave out wood plaques as awards. At this particular match they gave out the plaques and required an additional $100 for cash prizes. I was unaware of this feature as none of the other matches had it. So, I guess my use of the term "option" was in error. Regardless, as my skill level and equipment were not near high enough to have the slightest chance of winning anything, I felt I was just donating $100 to the winners. Based on some of the other posts in this thread, it appears some people consider this "paying your dues" and some day you might be on the receiving end instead of the donating end.

The "winner take all" aspect of this activity is not conducive to retaining average shooters. The top shooters are really phenomenal and I marvel at their accomplishments. I've learned a lot about reloading and equipment and that will serve me well in other shooting disciplines. But group shooting is a sport that is incredibly difficult and the difference between those that "get it" and those who don't is vast. So, group shooting will probably shrink to those few who are competitive at the top level because, there is no other level. You're either a top dog or just a hanger-on.

 

[Hunter]

The "winner take all" aspect of this activity is not conducive to retaining average shooters....But group shooting is a sport that is incredibly difficult and the difference between those that "get it" and those who don't is vast. So, group shooting will probably shrink to those few who are competitive at the top level because, there is no other level. You're either a top dog or just a hanger-on.

I agree with your first sentence, to the extent it relates to registered matches without a factory class.

Regarding your second sentence quoted above, I suspect you could say that about most sports.

Regarding your third sentence, I suspect there will be a continual inflow of new shooters who want to "race" with the top dogs -- until they realize the time and money commitment to be competitive. However, fortunately for average shooters, some club-level shoots include a factory class -- at a reduced cost in terms of time and money.

Regarding your last sentence, I wonder if the top dogs see the benefit the average shooters bring to the table? I wonder what the match fee would be if all of the average shooters stayed home? If they do see the benefit, I wonder why...

 

[adamsgt]

I wonder what the match fee would be if all of the average shooters stayed home? If they do see the benefit, I wonder why...

Well, the match fees for Raton went from $100 to $125 at the last match. And Ed Adams is having to recycle awards to keep the costs down. Participation is definitely down for those matches. I'll continue to support those matches as best I can as long as I can tell myself I'm having fun.

 

[Richard]

One thing I have been learning in building a range and holding matches. It costs money, and quite alot to be frank.
Targets, backer paper, target boards, backer boards, a place to load, trophys, target crew costs. Not counting a place to load. We spend thousands on guns and equipment, I'm sure not going to complain about spending $100 to have a match! I can tell you I will NEVER recoup my costs. I did it so guys could have another place to shoot.
I really didn't realize alot of this until recently and most shooters probably never give it a second thought.

Richard

 

[C.L. Peterson]

Match Cost to Clubs

One thing I have been learning in building a range and holding matches. It costs money, and quite alot to be frank.
Targets, backer paper, target boards, backer boards, a place to load, trophys, target crew costs. Not counting a place to load. We spend thousands on guns and equipment, I'm sure not going to complain about spending $100 to have a match! I can tell you I will NEVER recoup my costs. I did it so guys could have another place to shoot.
I really didn't realize alot of this until recently and most shooters probably never give it a second thought.

Richard

Richard
I supervised the matches at local club for 15 years and now help the last 3 years
Your cost outlined above are common for all ranges holding matches.
Local clubs have the added pressure from members to cancel our matches because it keeps the members (800 at our club) from using the rifle range.
When you have 10-15 shooters (most from outside club) keeping the membership from using the range until we're done there is a sales job annually to keep benchrest matches.
The club annually about covers cost but updates to target boards etc eat up any profit.
The match director at our club receives no compensation, but gets a lot of grief.

However this is where the future of all shooting sports lies.
Your shooters from local level go to other club matches, regional matches, state matches, National matches and they join the shooting organization.
Members joining shooting organizations allow/keep the National organization to stay alive.
It's a
Trickle up ---local to national
Not a
Trickle down---National to local

Therefore if we hope to stay alive we must have increased participation at local levels which will
TRICKLE UP to support the National organization

Richard you are a perfect example of what we need
MORE RANGES with MORE SHOOTERS

Thanks Richard for your support to help Benchrest Shooting.

Sorry for my rant
CLP

 

[JerrySharrett]

Doc Peterson nails it. Centerfire/group must, someway, trickle back up.

One of our local clubs, Kettlefoot, spent an additional $85,000 to add a better, covered, 30 bench firing line only to come up short for a match organizer/director. In the meantime, another local club, Unaka, went from 64 NBRSA shooters in 1999 down to 14 NBRSA shooters in 2017.

In the meantime, Kettlefoot, added 11 action pistol ranges and picked up over 100 IDPA/IPSC shooters. Adding these 11 pistol bays cost about $7,000, Equipment for a participant to shoot costs a shooter $1,500-$2,500 depending on the quality of the equipment they buy.

SO???

"The times, they are a changing" as the words of that song.


.

 

[jim1K]

the two post hit it, the new blood doesn't want the work that comes with bench rest and the cost. a very well know BR guy told me in 10 years there would not be bench rest and the way things are going that maybe an outside figure.... NBRSA or IBS the downward attendance is going the same way....... jim

 

[adamsgt]

the two post hit it, the new blood doesn't want the work that comes with bench rest and the cost. a very well know BR guy told me in 10 years there would not be bench rest and the way things are going that maybe an outside figure.... NBRSA or IBS the downward attendance is going the same way....... jim

You say that the new blood doesn't want the work that comes with bench rest. Are you referring to the work of putting on matches or the work involved in developing skills at shooting bench rest? I'd like to address the latter. When I shot in other disciplines, bullseye pistol or Palma, there is a classification system that allows the shooter to have some recognition of their improvement as they progressed from Marksman to Sharpshooter to Expert to Master to High Master. That system allows a shooter to compete against other shooters who are roughly comparable in skill level and equipment. The goal is still to get to the top but it helps and encourages shooters to advance if they see some recognition of the work they have put forth to improve their performance. It's probably too late to attempt to implement a classification system for bench rest as the momentum of the downward spiral is too large. The elites keep shooting and winning while the rest keep eating their dust and get more and more discouraged at seeing no results for their efforts, get weary and just drop out and go to another sport.

 

[jackie schmidt]

You say that the new blood doesn't want the work that comes with bench rest. Are you referring to the work of putting on matches or the work involved in developing skills at shooting bench rest? I'd like to address the latter. When I shot in other disciplines, bullseye pistol or Palma, there is a classification system that allows the shooter to have some recognition of their improvement as they progressed from Marksman to Sharpshooter to Expert to Master to High Master. That system allows a shooter to compete against other shooters who are roughly comparable in skill level and equipment. The goal is still to get to the top but it helps and encourages shooters to advance if they see some recognition of the work they have put forth to improve their performance. It's probably too late to attempt to implement a classification system for bench rest as the momentum of the downward spiral is too large. The elites keep shooting and winning while the rest keep eating their dust and get more and more discouraged at seeing no results for their efforts, get weary and just drop out and go to another sport.

What every body is dancing around is Benchrest is the one shooting Discipline where equipment is the predominate factor in who wins, and who does not. That is why Barrels, Bullets and tuning are so criticle.

How many Shooting Disciplines can get by with the accuracy afforded by Sierra or Hornady Match Bullets? Just about all except 100/200/300 yard Benchrest. The same can be said for Barrels. There are a limited number of barrel manufacturers who produce Barrels that will produce the agging capability that is required in Short Range Benchrest. And even within this select group, there are only a certain number of those Barrels that are capable of producing sub.200 agging capability.

I have always contended that at any given match, 75 % of the Rifles, (not the shooters), are not up to the agging capability that it will take to win. Just look at the scores. It's not long down the page untill you are in the "threes".

One exception seemed to be this years NBRSA Nationals. A large number of shooters were shooting at a level that would garner a high place in most Matches. The problem was the top ten were all at a near record agging pace.

Short Range Benchrest, both Group and Score, is hard. You can score a great lot of bullets and a great barrel, and set the World on fire, only to have a range size bucket of water thrown on you when you reorder and all of those "ones" turn into big "twos".

So you have a class system that has categories. You have some great components, you teach the top category. Then, your next lot of bullets, or that next barrel, is mediocre at best and you are sitting in the cheap seats again.

All of us know this. Just think back. How many new shooters have you seen score some great bullets and a really great barrel right out of the gate and shoot like a seasoned pro with a great Rifle. Then, he burns out that barrel, or uses up those bullets, and he suddenly can't make two bullets touch.

Then he quits. Why? Because Benchrest is different than most other Disciplines in that you will never be better than the Rifle sitting in the bags.

I do not have a solution for this problem.