Muzzle brakes in heavy gun class

With the economy in it's current state, should groups not be doing what they can to encourage rather than discourage participants? As mentioned in another thread, the brake on a rifle makes a difference in barrel harmonics so if the shooter has set up his rifle for a brake simply unscrewing the brake is going to put him at a disadvantage even if he were competing against rifles of the same weight. We're not just talking about LG shooting in HG class, but also Williamsport HG's shooting in IBS.

As to the issue of noise, here, I just don't understand the argument. There are several .300 WSM's, .300 Win Mags, .300 Wby Mags, Etc shooting in LG with a brake. I've shot beside them and don't think the noise is excessive, they're not going to be any louder in HG class than they are in LG class. No matter if the muzzle is .900" or 1.700".

I kind of get the feeling that some folks are sending the message "I've spent the money for an IBS HG and all the accessories that go with it, if you want to play, go buy the toys" not the best message to encourage growth of the sport. Better, I think, to encourage a guy to shoot his LG in HG class to get his feet wet. He may just get bit by the bug and come back next year with a true HG and all the accessories that go with it.............

Rick
 
Muzzle break on HG

Shooters,

IMHO for those who use the excuss "I don't want so sit next to a NOISY LG while I'm shooting my HG" is doing nothing to make our sport grow.
Does the noise affect you when you shooting your light gun? No!
As for investing in a new HG just to be able to compete in it is not the answer in OUR unstable economy either. Older gentlemen who can't and don't want to handle the recoil of a LG with-out a break is a big issue too as well as they are retired and on a budget too. So investing in a new HG is out off the question.

There is an easy solution LOOKING us in the face, ALLOW breaks on LG's in HG competition. The clubs will see more shooters and the sport will grow.

It's as simple as what is happening with our Government, they don't listen to what we want and NOTHING they do makes since.

How many times has this been discussed? It's obvious something here has to change with this rule. It's for the best of the sport indeed.

And I...would never fear a LG shooting next to me with a break while I'm shooting my 80 pound HG, that's why they make EAR MUFFS.

Tom Sarver
TVP

"Pardon our noise, it's the sound of FREEDOM!
 
Breaks

Rick & Tom nice!

I would like to say that in 1971 when I started shooting 1000 yard, there were no restrictions on HG which at the time, was the only class. Because the hole idea was to find out what really works, and put them all in one hole.
We had a shooter who said he wasn't going to shoot anymore because he thought muzzle breaks would make his bullets go all over the place. Well this man with a little help from frends, stayed shooting and went on to be Pa Two Gun champion. Now if people don't understand that its about barrels and bullets. Something is wrong with them.

Joe Salt:)
 
Having seen this for a year at Williamsport, I can tell ya that there will be no increase in shooters due to allowing muzzle brakes on hg's. It just ain't so. For that matter, those who complain enough to not shoot hg for the recoil, are not that serious about shooting to begin with. Weigh has nothing to do with it. There's no advantage to be had nor lost against a good hg. As Danny said, I also had a similar experience with my LG on Sundays in PA. For a little over 2 years, I won more with my LG in the HG class without the brake, than I won in LG with it. Same # of matches each class. Maybe there's just easier conditions to shoot in on Sundays :rolleyes:

If they paid people to stick muzzle brakes on, you couldn't get me to stick one on my HG, and it's about the lightest HG I ever saw. (It's also a 30). I don't use em in the LG class on a 30, I can't immagine adding one to a HG.

I did see one good HG have a brake added. But it didn't convince anyone else to rush out and add one, that's for sure.

I voted for MB on HG in Williamsport. Not cause I thought it was a good idea or cause I wanted one, but just to get people to go shoot and quit asking. It took >50% to pass the vote, and less than 2% put them on. Talk about catering to minorities. I've always said that I thought the people in Williamsport were Forced to shoot well, cause all the stuff that made the guns shoot bad, was illegal... :D:D Those were the days!
 
First of all, the noise issue was taken out of context. I couldn't care any less about the noise. If that were the case, I wouldn't even show up to a match.

What I want to know is why do we need to allow LGs with brakes to compete out of the class that they were intended for.
In an another thread, the possibility of changing the course of fire in LG was to ten rounds instead of five. Someone said that we would burn our barrels out faster, but they aslo want to shoot their LG in HG class with a brake. What the heck is the difference?
Are next going to want to change HG to a five round target also?

As far as growth, the sport will grow when the economy allows travel, membership fees, reloading components, and the cost of building a custom competition gun all to be affordable again.

This issue has been brought up by the same minority everytime. If you want it to become a one gun sport, then put it up to a vote. I don't care one way or the other.

Danny
 
I agree

Danny

I agree. If you allow muzzle brakes on HG the why have a HG and LG class? Just have a 10 shot and a 5 shot class at that point.

Noise is one thing as one can always double up plugs and muffs, but muzzle blast is another. Some clubs with smaller attendance can and will put shooters on every other bench. 20 feet between shooters and a brake isnt an issue. 10 feet and blast from a brake can move you around quite a bit.

Besides, building a HG stimulates alot more growth throughout the industry then shooting one gun for both classes. Sure on the micro level an individual club may not see as much gain, but overall the industry thrives more. How many people have you seen that are really into this game not go out and build a true HG?

Take care
Rob
 
Danny Brooks said:
First of all, the noise issue was taken out of context. I couldn't care any less about the noise. If that were the case, I wouldn't even show up to a match.

Danny
Click to expand...

Danny,

Some people couldn't buy a clue if you gave them a dollar......


Jeff in OH
 
Danny,

I would not want to see HG competition go to 5 rounds EVER nor would I want to see LG go to 10 EVER. This seperates the two classes perfectly.
This argument/discussion will never go anywhere, it's dead in the water I'm sure. The rule will never change and your right it is a select few who want it to change. Over time this "rules change" may happen...till then we will just keep shoot'n what we have and be glad we have what we have to shoot.
Lots of shooters having to give it up because of the BAD economy. I'm putting the "HULK" HG back together for 2009 to join in the fun again. I have my Berger 185's ready to go! See you soon.

Tom
 
Blast VS. Noise

If blast was the issue then............ ?

If it were the issue of blast disturbance ....a LG with a brake MOVING a HG, then wouldn't it be for a LG also? I don't think so. Talk about not having a clue.

Or if BLAST was the issue disrupting other shooters then remove the brakes off LG's too! They are however half the normal weight of a HG. Simple math even for someone as stupid as me.

If blast was the issue our LG's would shoot like crap....period..and they don't, at least mine doesn't.

Tom
 
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Blast

Exactly how many 338 and 408 LGs have you seen on the line? I can think of one. Joel tinkered with a 338 Yogi LG some, but not many will attempt that with a 17# gun. Now with a 70# gun there will be many more out there with 416 Rigby, 338 LM, 408 CT and necked down 50 cartridges with brakes. That is the muzzle blast I refer to.

Put brakes on HG and the only difference in the classes becomes the number of shots and the rear rest. Before long everyone with a LG will have a rear rest they use when shooting their LG in HG and then they will be wanting to use their rear rest instead of a bag in LG class too.

If economics for the shooter is really the driving factor, remove the brakes from LG. Think of the savings on each barrel when chambering up a new one. Let alone the savings brought on by encouraging shooters to use more cost effective cartridges. A LG w/o a brake means using a case design more around 50-60g of powder vs 75-90g. Means using bullets that are more like $0.30 each vs ones that are $0.40 each. Means using brass that is closer to $1 each vs $1.50 to $1.90 each. Lots of economic savings in building a LG sans brake. Depending on the chambering could mean lots for barrel life too.

Oh well, my input on the matter. I, like Danny, shot HG with my LG w/o the brake for couple of years too. Looking forward to shooting again this summer.
 
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Rob Ashcraft. said:
Looking forward to shooting again this summer.
Click to expand...

Same here...really looking forward to visiting the WV ranges for the first time and getting to NC a time or two. I suppose a trip to Pella before September should be in the mix somewhere (and in September!).

Jeff in OH
 
My comment was that I have shot light gun on the last light gun relay then shot the same gun on the first heavy relay and by the time i got finished I couldn't touch it for 10 minutes. So if you make LG 10 rounds, that would compound the problem. If you have only one gun, then you have no choice but to shoot it whatever the shot count is. The muzzle brake is a seperate issue. Talk to a barrel maker about how hot you should let a barrel get. If most people thought that a 17 lb gun is just as competitive as 30+ lb then they wouldn't lug the heavy thing around. I believe everyone that has responded on this thread uses ,at this time, a HG rifle well over 17 lbs. Why? Don't get me wrong about this issue,I have 5 different rifles I shoot in long range comp. these days.
 
Trouble

If you have all those rifles then there should be no trouble letting one cool while you use the other. Besides, before 17 lb light guns it was a HG class,I for one realy enjoy shooting my 80+ LB Heavy Gun. And for muzzle breaks the reason they weren't allowed, was back in the 1970's there were big clam shell breaks that really put the gases back and to the sides. Now if you don't have an extra rifle come to Williamsport and you can try one of mine. Don't care if you burn the barrel up,that is what they're for, to shoot, not look at like money. And if people want to build a 408CT 338 or 416 then they have more money than brains, because they're just going to get beat by little 6mm! Oh and then some will complain that with breaks on 80 Lb 6mm the gun won't move, seen those before and they aren't setting the ranges on fire either.
Joe Salt
 
What was the meaning of my statement that you didn't understand was, yes I have both heavy and light guns now, but didn't when I first started. I just think that anything that would help get people started and stay in our shooting will help the sport. Naturally if you stay in this you probably end up with a real heavy gun when you can afford it. I certainly don't think letting a LG shoot with a brake in HG is giving them an advantage over a real HG. If you do then don't vote for it. Enough said.
 
Bobby,

I am willing to bet that if new shooters were allowed to shoot their 17 lb. LG in the HG class, it would not encourage them to build a true HG to compete with. I agree that some would, but the majority would just keep shooting the LG. And I believe some of the "old" shooters would stop bringing the HGs and use the LGs.

If a new shooter is being competitive with a LG, why would he/she build a HG.
And think about relay scheduling at the match. There would be another set of criteria that the people scheduling the relays that they would start considering after some complained that they can't clean the barrel if they are in the last relay in the first class to shoot and the first relay of the second class. Or it is unfair because his/her barrel is still hot from the previous relay. The folks running the match have enough crap to deal with when people want to separated because of equipment sharing, spotting, coaching, and so on.

We need to keep things as simple as possible. The more we change these rules, the more complex things will become. We need to emplement a rule where we don't change rules but every couple of years or so. Most of the shooters couldn't tell you if their understanding of every rule was correct or not. This would give everyone time to read the rule book and know it more completely, though a lot would not thinking that "ignorance" can be an excuse.

Again my thought on this matter is leave the rules alone and that new shooter will if motivated, will eventually build a HG to compete with.

Danny
 
Danny is exactly correct. This is how our society has become. Don't inconvenience yourself by complying with the rules...change the rules to fit your convenience. It is classic "special interest group" mentality. I could care less who is shooting what next to me...I know what it means to "double up" with hearing protection when needed. That is not the issue, but as expected some take it as a point to exploit the real subject matter and show their alleged "expertise."

If you want to shoot your LG in HG, quit complaining and take the brake off and shoot...seems pretty darn simple to me, and very cost-effective.

As for spurring interest in the sport, I really doubt that it would do anything to increase match attendance anywhere.

As said, shooting season is just around the corner. I for one hope we can turn our discussions towards a subject that really matters instead of beating this dead horse, but only time will tell.


Jeff in OH
 
Jeff,

The first paragragh of your last post put it exactly the point I was trying to get across. We need to stop catering to a minority, no matter what the subject or sport. I hate to bring it in to this discussion, but catering to "special interests" is what put the economy where it is today. That is a fact and anyone who has been following any of the financial news lately will agree.

I am done on this subject.

Good luck to all this season, I hope to see you at the range(s),

Danny
 
Guys

Out here on the Leftcoast we can have muzzlebrakes on anything as well as mechanical rear rests.
I own 3 muzzlebrakes but not one of them is currently on a barrel.I also have a Dierks rear rest with multiple bag plates and haven't used it in years.
I use an Edgewood rear bag and my 6 heavyguns all weighing more than 50 pounds have no muzzlebrakes.
We have only one shooter using a muzzlebrake on his 338 Lapua on a regular basis and one guy who shot with us twice.
Point being we are allowed everything and our guns pretty much mimmick yours.
Lynn
 
17 lb. guns generally will not be as competitive as a 50-75 lb. heavy gun when shooting 10 shot groups. Look at Pennsylvania data. They shoot 10 shot groups in light gun. Does the light gun aggregates match the heavy gun aggregates? I'll be happy to shoot my 75 lb. heavy gun against those shooting a 17 lb. gun with a muzzle brake. We are in a time of considerable decrease in match attendance so some things may need to be changed just to keep the shooters we have or bring in new shooters. Originally I shot my light gun in heavy gun class, adding a 14 lb weight under the stock. Occasionally I would win but this set-up lacked the consistency needed for serious competition.
 
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