Laser for setting flags

AJ300MAG said:
Problem is, that doctor's report doesn't give the distance from the laser to the eye....

Had a conversation with someone who ACTUALLY uses a laser in the medical profession. He considered them safe enough that he wanted one for his personal use. From my experience you might see the same effect that you recieve from being exposed to a photo flash unit when having your picture taken, or having one of the newer high intensity flashlights aimed in your eyes.
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You have not read the links posted. Lasers can do damage without you realizing it initially. You can shine flashlights and take flash photos at aircraft all you want, there is a reason there is a law prohibiting lasers directed at aircraft, the concentrated beam can travel several hundred yards or more, and still cause temporary blindness.
My point is you have NO idea (even the user/owner may not know with complete certainty) what the energy output of a laser may be. Perhaps those who use a domestic brand may be with-in spec, but my guess is the bulk are made elsewhere where they can just slap on a compliance label.
I was under the impression that long-term exposure to sun-light was a main cause for cataracts, I don't feel at all confident that the medical community knows the cumulative long term effects of periodic exposure to lasers.
Also, Glenn has an excellent point, as I can see someone getting the laser at very close range, with-in 10 yds (Murphy's Law) and his scenario becomes a reality.
 
Al,
We know the sun is up there. We may not be told that a laser is in use.

This discussion reminds me of the progression to the current safety equipment situation in auto racing. They didn't wake up one morning and realize that someone could get killed, they reacted to multiple deaths. As a general rule, I find that people who want to do something that has safety issues will find all sorts of ways to rationalize the risk. Heck, I see seemingly intelligent people that shoot without eye protection, or who only wear it because they are required to do so.
 
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LHSmith said:
You have not read the links posted. Lasers can do damage without you realizing it initially. You can shine flashlights and take flash photos at aircraft all you want, there is a reason there is a law prohibiting lasers directed at aircraft, the concentrated beam can travel several hundred yards or more, and still cause temporary blindness.
My point is you have NO idea (even the user/owner may not know with complete certainty) what the energy output of a laser may be. Perhaps those who use a domestic brand may be with-in spec, but my guess is the bulk are made elsewhere where they can just slap on a compliance label.
I was under the impression that long-term exposure to sun-light was a main cause for cataracts, I don't feel at all confident that the medical community knows the cumulative long term effects of periodic exposure to lasers.
Also, Glenn has an excellent point, as I can see someone getting the laser at very close range, with-in 10 yds (Murphy's Law) and his scenario becomes a reality.
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Yes, I've read the link. The doctor states the area's of damage (pigmitation) had a 5 minute and a 15 minute exposure level. There was no actual damage done to the victim's visual aquity. The doctor also stated that normal human reflex would prevent someone from recieving damage to their eyes. He clearly stated that laser damage is a precieved issue, not based on actual results.
 
Francis,
That sounds good but its not realistic.
I knew there was on in use somewhere on the line.
Didnt know where exactly and the fact that the terrain at the range put me at eye level with a bench when I was standing upright makes all of the dont look into the laser void. If it were on a dead flat range no problem.

But like Glenn said ranges will ignore the problem along with the Asso. then when someone gets hurt and sues well we all know where that will get us, but then again I guess they figure thats what insurance is for. And it is until they find these posts then it just becomes negligence.

And while many seem to think its not such a big deal I CHALLENGE everyone that wants to use one to walk out 10-25-50 yards and look directly into it.
And before you say no one looks into it on purpose thats just it you can find out exactly what it is when its done accidentally.

Last item does anyone here remember the criminal charges brought against some kids some years back for shining it into the cockpit of a plane and supposedly temporarily blinding the pilot? Or was all that just just posturing?
 
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Vern it's pretty obvious you have an agenda and are more than willing to spin results in favor of you ideas. There's a world of difference between a pilot shooting an approach at night and being temporarily blinded by a laser (any bright flash of light will destroy your night vision for a short period ;) ) and on the other hand walking into a laser beam being used to set flags on a rifle range.
 
The only agenda I have is that I walked into one and I know what the results were.
Im not trying to spin anything. I asked if anyone remembered.. because I didnt ever hear the final results or all the details only that there was an incident.
So for me its not what might happen with one of the lasers its what DID happen to me.
 
Well Francis I did LOOK at the laser I was just looking in that direction when I stepped in front of it.
As far as permanent damage I dont know have not been to the Dr. the immediate damage was I could not see well enough to shoot and see flags with only one eye for the first relay.
 
My apologies

I apologize to anyone if I have been sharp, rude or otherwise condescending in this post. Just been grumpy lately and dont know why.

But anyway I did and do think its a great way to set flags but we do need something to keep people from getting hurt.
Once we can do that I will probably set mine that way also.
 
The report stated damage to the fovea(area of sharpest vision) which was only exposed to 60 seconds of green laser less than 5mw in strength. My green laser is a 20 mw model. Assuming a straight line relationship, maybe same damage with 15 seconds exposure? Lasers of greater than 100mw are readily available, which might then produce the same damage in a single exposure. I don't believe anyone would want any detectable damage to their retina under any circumstances.

You are correct that green laser damage is a percieved issue-the doctor perceived damage to the eye as a result of the experiment. If you don't think that is based on actual results, I guess I'm at a loss for words.

Lastly, we don't know the cumulative effect of brief exposures, the same problem we have with radiation from x-rays. How many brief exposures are you willing to be subjected to to test the threshold?

As far as this is applicable to our sport, it might be prudent to develop some standards if green lasers are to be allowed.
Safety glass lenses with wraparound can be found for about $25. Plastic lens glasses may not be effective for stronger wattage lasers. Range supplies glasses or each flag setter required to have thier own(whether you use laser or not).
Just some of the things to think about.
 
BAD INFORMATION!!!! I'VE BEEN CONVINCED THAT PEOPLE ARE USING LASERS OF ADEQUATE POWER TO DESTRY HUMAN TISSUE......

i'M LEAVING THE POST ENTIRE IN THE INTEREST OF CONTINUITY.









Two items of note;

Glasses "polarized" or filtered to block laser light are available for under ten bucks

And as far as I know the reason for not shining at planes is because they're laser guided. The come in riding on and responding to laser signals. Throwing random laser light around the underside of the plane is kinda' like injecting stray electricity into an electrical system.

I don't believe for one minute that it has any chance of blinding a pilot.

al
 
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Al are you suggesting that all people down range setting up flags should be required to purchase polarized glasses because someone might be using a laser?
Maybe you should google instead of just giving your opinion.
The case I referred to happend 5-10 years ago but here are just a few that happened last year.

This is not the one either but it shows the criminality and a boy was charged.
http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/ne..._as_holiday_jet_came_in_to_land___court_told/

Another Criminal case ( this one will get Jerry S going)
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,143371,00.html

This is not the case I am referring to but this on happened last year.
http://www.dispatch.com/live/conten...ser-light-briefly-blinded-him-pilot-says.html

And yet another....
http://www.wfaa.com/news/local/Pilots-planes-endangered-by-DFW-laser-beam-108306284.html

Do some research folks instead of blindly giving opinions without knowledge PLEASE
and these were just 3 or 4 of many. Try the google for yourself. And these are only the pilots.
 
Tim Oltersdorf said:
Gentlemen, You may be interested in knowing that the USAF ABYAL 1A airborne laser weapon is being considered for defunding. One prototype has been built housed in a 747 airframe. It uses a megawatt chemical iodine laser developed for shooting down ballistic missiles which could easily be converted to alternate uses such as setting flags. There would be no problem with vision damage as anyone looking at or even straying into the beam would be vaporized. Tim
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Wow. Just what I am looking for. After I buy that MAGLEV Naval Artillery Gun....
 
mkihne said:
The report stated damage to the fovea(area of sharpest vision) which was only exposed to 60 seconds of green laser less than 5mw in strength.
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Dr. Robertson exposed the patient’s retina to light from a commercially available Class 3A green laser with an average power measured at less than five milliwatts: 60 seconds to the fovea, the center of acute vision; five minutes to a site 5 degrees below the fovea; and 15 minutes to a site 5 degrees above the fovea. Dr. Robertson had color photographs taken of the eye before and after exposure to the laser.

Dr. Robertson examined the patient’s eye 24 hours after laser exposure. He found retinal damage characterized by yellowish discoloration involving the pigment layer beneath the fovea and at the site of the 15-minute exposure above the fovea. Each of these sites developed a grainy texture within six days. Study of the eye tissue under a microscope also confirmed damage to the pigment layer in the laser-exposed regions.
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Other than a discoloring issue are there any reported situations that state vision damage?
 
FBecigneul said:
The laser is used for flag setting because it gives off a pinpoint beam. All one needs to do is stay out of the direct line between target and bench both laterally and vertically and at that moment refrain from looking at the laser emitting instrument. It's still better by far to have friends and relatives to help with the setting of flags. Remember the guy at the bench is the boss; the guy down range is the dummy. How tough can that be?
I'm usually down range. Got that in before Gammon came on here and laughed at me.
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Francis. good.
 
AJ300MAG said:
Vern it's pretty obvious you have an agenda and are more than willing to spin results in favor of you ideas. There's a world of difference between a pilot shooting an approach at night and being temporarily blinded by a laser (any bright flash of light will destroy your night vision for a short period ;) ) and on the other hand walking into a laser beam being used to set flags on a rifle range.
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AJ. Thank you.
 
Francis, Zippy thats great when/if everyone knew where the laser was but many times we dont know where one is or that there even is one.
The laser that got me was actually owned by a friend of mine and even worse I knew it was there but I didnt know where no did I have any idea that the ground changed that much between the bench and the target. and for what its worth the owner has posted on this thread.
 
Boyd Allen said:
Right, it could never happen.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1063342/Airline-pilots-blinded-laser-beams-come-land.html
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,143371,00.html
http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/video/las...s-faa-blinded-sky-airplanes-features-12669255
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Boyd at 150 yards the beam is really dispersed. But, at night. I guess, it is really VERY Bright.
Pilots need some night vision. But, if they look down at a reading......or dial....

I mostly use the laser, when I don't have any help. Shooting alone....
I have been to the Super Shoot. Lots of help.
At my home range. I help the Target Crew with setting up the target frames. Help to move them. When I am done, I need to move my flags. Usually, on Friday everyone is gone. On Sat. they are eating lunch.....
Tim B.
 
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Vern said:
Francis, Zippy thats great when/if everyone knew where the laser was but many times we dont know where one is or that there even is one.
The laser that got me was actually owned by a friend of mine and even worse I knew it was there but I didnt know where no did I have any idea that the ground changed that much between the bench and the target. and for what its worth the owner has posted on this thread.
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Vern. That's cool.
I don't mean to be a jerk.
I live up in "The Great White North".
Also known as the democratic union socialist state of the great white north.
One guy told me the other day. I can't make my own bullets. I have to have a special stamp from the fbi.
Then this other guy told me. I can't make my own ammo. The gun powder is specially mixed and has serial number tags. And that's why you have to show ID to buy gun powder. So it is registered to you.
 
Zippy are you serious about eh bullets?
That realllly sucks and should get old Jerry S going on another good post. Though I think it would make for another great post if you are serious.
Hey register them all to me at least only one of us will go down...hehehe

When it hit me I was on about the 40-50 yard line in a low spot.
 
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