jackie schmidt
New member
David, I am in close contact with my Region Director, and this is not my idea, but his. He chooses me as his voice on this Forum for his own reasons. Most of what I write about concerning this are not my own thoughts but what we have voted on in our first Region Meeting at New Braunfels, to be finalized at The Buffalo Shoot in Midland on Labor Day Week End. Scott feels that this will be a good amendment to the scoring system. He has been talking to shooters throughout the Region for their thoughts and has come to this conclusion.
Scott will vote the way the Region directs him to vote, as he is our representative at the National Meeting.
I hope this puts your mind to rest that I am not trying to ramrod something through on my own accord...........jackie
Scott will vote the way the Region directs him to vote, as he is our representative at the National Meeting.
I hope this puts your mind to rest that I am not trying to ramrod something through on my own accord...........jackie
No Doc, what I find childish is when a grown man feels he's inadequate at something to the point where he feels it's necessary to change the rules to meet his low expectations. This ain't "T" ball, we keep score and everybody doesn't go home with a trophy at the end of the season.
Now add to the fact someone who's a pediatric surgeon and suffers from a lack of self confidence...
SGJennings
New member
I was actually poking at the good doctor for whipping out his surgeon credentials.
Your combat experience is impressive, especially in a helo. Everything being coupled gives an old flight controls engineer nightmares It's impressive enough that I'll forgive you being a lawyer (really and truly just kidding...my son is named for a lawyer friend).
Fritz, Larry, and Joe.
Let's throw some fuel on the fire.
In our area most people show up preloaded for a Score match.
After much testing and watching you fellas.
I switched, to loading the first group in the morning, of the first Tournament. Vice the night before.
Last Group Tournament WWCCA, it worked. First match Sat. morning I had the smallest Group.
And the smallest for Sporter class 200y.
My point.
Neck tension. When you preload. You lose neck tension.
Take Ron Robovitsky. He loads after each match. And he wins a lot. Score. Group. -20 or +95 degrees. It does not matter. He is loading at the range.
Let's throw some fuel on the fire.
In our area most people show up preloaded for a Score match.
After much testing and watching you fellas.
I switched, to loading the first group in the morning, of the first Tournament. Vice the night before.
Last Group Tournament WWCCA, it worked. First match Sat. morning I had the smallest Group.
And the smallest for Sporter class 200y.
My point.
Neck tension. When you preload. You lose neck tension.
Take Ron Robovitsky. He loads after each match. And he wins a lot. Score. Group. -20 or +95 degrees. It does not matter. He is loading at the range.
M
mike in co
Guest
the difference kind doctor, it that this is an open forum, not YOUR office. just because you start a conversation, doen not mean it may not wonder a bit from the original subject.
see the post above mine....stuff happens deal with it...well in your case learn to deal with it( as in 6ppc and 30 br)...
mike in co
see the post above mine....stuff happens deal with it...well in your case learn to deal with it( as in 6ppc and 30 br)...
mike in co
A
abintx
Guest
Zip ...
Actually, that is not the case. It's the TIME between when you neck size and finally seat a bullet that seems to be the key controlling factor. Preloading is inconsequential.
Source: http://www.6mmbr.com/BlogJan2006.html [2/3rds of the way down the page]
RELOADING TIP--Neck Tension vs. Time: We've learned that time (between neck-sizing operation and bullet seating) can have dramatic effects on neck tension. Controlling neck tension on your cases is a very, very important element of precision reloading. When neck tension is very uniform across all your brass, you'll see dramatic improvements in ES and SD, and your groups will shrink. Typically you'll also see fewer fliers. Right now, most reloaders attempt to control neck tension by using different sized neck bushings. This does, indeed, affect how hard the neck grips your bullets. However, James Phillips recently discovered that another critical factor is at work. He loaded two sets of 22 Dasher brass. Each had been sized with the SAME bushing, however the first group was sized two weeks before loading, whereas the second group was neck-sized just the day before. James noticed immediately that the bullet seating effort was not the same for both sets of cases--not even close. Using a K&M Arbor press equipped with the optional Bullet-Seating Force Gauge, James determined that over twice as much force was required to seat the bullets which had been neck-sized two weeks before. The dial read-out of seating force for the "older" cases was in the 60s, while the seating force for the recently-neck-sized cases was in the 20s. (These numbers correspond to pounds of force applied to the bullet). Conclusion? In the two weeks that had elapsed since neck-sizing, the necks continued to spring back (get tighter) and stiffen. Lesson learned: for match rounds, size ALL your cases at the same time. If you want to reduce neck tension, load immediately after sizing.
Here's more:
Should You Bench Load ???
The majority of top 6PPC competitors load ammo on match day, playing with load weights to suit the charge to temperature and humidity. While this allows you to get peak velocity on a cool day, and avoid over-charges in very hot conditions, "bench loading is a huge distraction", and isn't essential.
Hall of Famer Jim Borden: "I have my ammunition already loaded for [major matches]. It's working, both rifles are Agging in the 'low Ones', with a load of about 29.0gr N133, running about 3300 fps."
"Loading to conditions on match day can kill you. All you can do is go by memory and guess-timates. If your rifle has good vibration control, you'll typically have an accuracy window of 100-125 fps."
"I set preloads for velocity in the middle of the accuracy window which lets me shoot in any conditions. Studies by Jack Jackson convinced me we could let ammo sit for as long as a year and accuracy will hold."
Actually, that is not the case. It's the TIME between when you neck size and finally seat a bullet that seems to be the key controlling factor. Preloading is inconsequential.
Source: http://www.6mmbr.com/BlogJan2006.html [2/3rds of the way down the page]
RELOADING TIP--Neck Tension vs. Time: We've learned that time (between neck-sizing operation and bullet seating) can have dramatic effects on neck tension. Controlling neck tension on your cases is a very, very important element of precision reloading. When neck tension is very uniform across all your brass, you'll see dramatic improvements in ES and SD, and your groups will shrink. Typically you'll also see fewer fliers. Right now, most reloaders attempt to control neck tension by using different sized neck bushings. This does, indeed, affect how hard the neck grips your bullets. However, James Phillips recently discovered that another critical factor is at work. He loaded two sets of 22 Dasher brass. Each had been sized with the SAME bushing, however the first group was sized two weeks before loading, whereas the second group was neck-sized just the day before. James noticed immediately that the bullet seating effort was not the same for both sets of cases--not even close. Using a K&M Arbor press equipped with the optional Bullet-Seating Force Gauge, James determined that over twice as much force was required to seat the bullets which had been neck-sized two weeks before. The dial read-out of seating force for the "older" cases was in the 60s, while the seating force for the recently-neck-sized cases was in the 20s. (These numbers correspond to pounds of force applied to the bullet). Conclusion? In the two weeks that had elapsed since neck-sizing, the necks continued to spring back (get tighter) and stiffen. Lesson learned: for match rounds, size ALL your cases at the same time. If you want to reduce neck tension, load immediately after sizing.
Here's more:
Should You Bench Load ???
The majority of top 6PPC competitors load ammo on match day, playing with load weights to suit the charge to temperature and humidity. While this allows you to get peak velocity on a cool day, and avoid over-charges in very hot conditions, "bench loading is a huge distraction", and isn't essential.
Hall of Famer Jim Borden: "I have my ammunition already loaded for [major matches]. It's working, both rifles are Agging in the 'low Ones', with a load of about 29.0gr N133, running about 3300 fps."
"Loading to conditions on match day can kill you. All you can do is go by memory and guess-timates. If your rifle has good vibration control, you'll typically have an accuracy window of 100-125 fps."
"I set preloads for velocity in the middle of the accuracy window which lets me shoot in any conditions. Studies by Jack Jackson convinced me we could let ammo sit for as long as a year and accuracy will hold."
SGJennings
New member
Mods,
Could we split this thread starting with the neck tension part. It's a worthwhile topic.
All,
I have previously prepped cases, then primed them and let them sit till I decided what load to put in them. I'll have to think about the wisdom of that approach.
Could we split this thread starting with the neck tension part. It's a worthwhile topic.
All,
I have previously prepped cases, then primed them and let them sit till I decided what load to put in them. I'll have to think about the wisdom of that approach.
Upon Further Review...
All that needs to happen is to modify the current scoring rectical. The width of the ring of the rectical can be controlled by the depth that the tool bit is ran at. It's possible to run the bit deeper on the 6mm and the .22 rings so that the ring will inscribe the bullet hole while having an O.D. of .308". That way when you score targets the outer edge of the ring would be used to determine the score value when checking a target shot with a 6mm or a .22 eliminating the advantage of a .308" hole. All holes would be scored as if it were shot with a .308.....
And we'd still have whiners who would cry it ain't fair.
All that needs to happen is to modify the current scoring rectical. The width of the ring of the rectical can be controlled by the depth that the tool bit is ran at. It's possible to run the bit deeper on the 6mm and the .22 rings so that the ring will inscribe the bullet hole while having an O.D. of .308". That way when you score targets the outer edge of the ring would be used to determine the score value when checking a target shot with a 6mm or a .22 eliminating the advantage of a .308" hole. All holes would be scored as if it were shot with a .308.....
And we'd still have whiners who would cry it ain't fair.
Art I believe there's a bunch of Long Range competitors who will seat their bullets long when loading for the season and then seat the bullets to the proper depth the day before a match. Some people say the bullet is "cold welded" to the case which is an improper term, the bullet can't "weld" itself to a case. It's just the fact that the neck tension has gotten tighter as the brass has aged.
mwezell
Mike Ezell
Upon Further Review...
All that needs to happen is to modify the current scoring rectical. The width of the ring of the rectical can be controlled by the depth that the tool bit is ran at. It's possible to run the bit deeper on the 6mm and the .22 rings so that the ring will inscribe the bullet hole while having an O.D. of .308". That way when you score targets the outer edge of the ring would be used to determine the score value when checking a target shot with a 6mm or a .22 eliminating the advantage of a .308" hole. All holes would be scored as if it were shot with a .308.....
And we'd still have whiners who would cry it ain't fair.
Whiners?LOL! It seems to me, that if a shooter wants to be scored as a .30, the he should shoot a .30. ---Mike Ezell
Dick Grosbier
Club Coordinator
Dick Grosbier
Club Coordinator
Apparently some people think it should be.
jackie schmidt
New member
Seems like we are getting a lot of that lately in the Adult Population. Wanting to be like 8-9 year olds, and get a "trophy" for simply putting out the effort. ...........jackie
Fritz,
Come on up to Harrison for our score shoot on 11Sept. Bring your .30. If you can beat Hutchn'Gage (One word) or Thateffin'Brian (One word) with your 30 I will buy your lunch at the manditory meeting at the bar right after the match. All three of these gentlemen shoot 6 PPC's.
As a matter of fact, since I finally got off my dead butt and got my .22 shooting, I might be inclined to make the same bet with you... beat me and I buy.
FWIW I think the 30 BR is probably the best score cartridge generally available. I also think the best group cartridge is a .22 PPC, .100" short. Since more than 20% of the last dozen Super Shoots have been won by a .22 short with maybe 2 or 3 percent of the competitors shooting them... argue with statistics if you want. Mike Ratigan, who shoots a .22 short has won the World Benchrest Championship twice. My arguement is simply this... I've shot them all... a lot. Who else can say that?
I don't think the advantage for either cartridge in either discipline outweighs the quality of the competitor. Get Kroop and come up on the 11th... and learn. It would be good to see you again.
Dick Wright
Come on up to Harrison for our score shoot on 11Sept. Bring your .30. If you can beat Hutchn'Gage (One word) or Thateffin'Brian (One word) with your 30 I will buy your lunch at the manditory meeting at the bar right after the match. All three of these gentlemen shoot 6 PPC's.
As a matter of fact, since I finally got off my dead butt and got my .22 shooting, I might be inclined to make the same bet with you... beat me and I buy.
FWIW I think the 30 BR is probably the best score cartridge generally available. I also think the best group cartridge is a .22 PPC, .100" short. Since more than 20% of the last dozen Super Shoots have been won by a .22 short with maybe 2 or 3 percent of the competitors shooting them... argue with statistics if you want. Mike Ratigan, who shoots a .22 short has won the World Benchrest Championship twice. My arguement is simply this... I've shot them all... a lot. Who else can say that?
I don't think the advantage for either cartridge in either discipline outweighs the quality of the competitor. Get Kroop and come up on the 11th... and learn. It would be good to see you again.
Dick Wright
M
miken
Guest
scoring other calibers
just a thought, but the National Muzzleloading Rifle Associaton scores their targets with what they call an overlay[ similar to our scoring reticule], but each circle has a cross in it to indicate the center of the bullet hole. they score the center of the shot like we score the edge, therefore all calibers are equal. that would give everyone regardless of their caliber a fair and equal chance, equating to possibly more participants. also to Mike Ezell and Charlie in Ky we shoot group matches every month that we're not shooting score at BGSL in Wilmore, Ky. bring your 30's and whip up on us lowly 6's and 22's. Mike Niblett
just a thought, but the National Muzzleloading Rifle Associaton scores their targets with what they call an overlay[ similar to our scoring reticule], but each circle has a cross in it to indicate the center of the bullet hole. they score the center of the shot like we score the edge, therefore all calibers are equal. that would give everyone regardless of their caliber a fair and equal chance, equating to possibly more participants. also to Mike Ezell and Charlie in Ky we shoot group matches every month that we're not shooting score at BGSL in Wilmore, Ky. bring your 30's and whip up on us lowly 6's and 22's. Mike Niblett
M
mike in co
Guest
thats nice, but we are not shooting lasers, we shoot bullets, bullets have a dia.....so as has been said many times....if you want to be scored as a 30 ..shoot a 30....if you chose to shoot a 6 well then the holes are smaller. for the record..in case you have not noticed...all calibers are not equal.
mike in co
mike in co
mwezell
Mike Ezell
Thanks for the invite, Mike. I plan on getting up there for a group shoot when I can. Heck, I haven't been able to make all of the registered score shoots that I wanted to so far this year though. I don't know about whippin' up on you boys though. You and that bunch up there are some tough company. That makes it all the better. I need to shoot that place some more to try and get any kind of hold on that range. She's got some quirks for sure.---Mike Ezell
M
miken
Guest
i guess you're right Mike in Co. the 30 does recoil quite a bit so i guess that makes it better. my point is the center of the bullet is the same for all calibers.