How about Shooting Coaches?

pete wass said:
i have had the theory for a time that most of us if not all could benefit greatly by having a shooting coach, just as other athletes have coaches. I think for older folks, such as myself, who have a declining ability to remember things, someone who would watch us when we shoot and what we shoot in, could cut the learning curve greatly.

I don't know if he still does this but tony boyer offered seminars for a few years. It seems to me that some of the top rf shooters could make a few bucks; perhaps pay for their trips by offering shooting seminars. Wadda ya think?
Click to expand...
best shooting coach is yourself be honest on mistakes and keep practicing and pay close of direction and angle of daisy wind flaigs.
 
Are we different?
Do we perform differently?
Do we think differently?

Let's look at other shooting disciplines for a moment...
ISSF is all about coaches...
Archery is all about coaches...
Why benchrest is different?
Maybe our age range is the difference... benchrest doesn't have a school, archery does, ISSF does... just to name a few.
Maybe our declining in numbers, and not triggering the same interest among youngsters is because there's no place to learn.

Being seasoned shooters, national champions, world champions, whatever we are, doesn't mean we don't need a coach.
Yes, we do need a coach! We do need a person that makes us to think the basis again and again, point out the flaws and the positives. A person that anticipate our needs, fears and ambition. A person that designs a training plan and goals, and carries on the shooter to achieve, to excel.

I think we have entered a "bad" circle towards potential coaches... the ones that exist don't want to coach us because they see persons that are too deep in their egos, not having open minds, or at least not listening. On the other hand, we are not creating a school that could developed benchrest coaches.

Are we doomed?
Don't think so, but I deeply believe we have to act differently to preserve the sport we love the best.
 
PedroS said:
That would be so nice Kent...
I'll give a leg and a kidney, well,... maybe just a kidney, as legs are too useful for benchrest, to be on front row listening!
Please do broadcast...
Click to expand...

I'll be the sponge to your left holding a clipboard and pen..
 
Great Post!

PedroS said:
Are we different?
Do we perform differently?
Do we think differently?

Let's look at other shooting disciplines for a moment...
ISSF is all about coaches...
Archery is all about coaches...
Why benchrest is different?
Maybe our age range is the difference... benchrest doesn't have a school, archery does, ISSF does... just to name a few.
Maybe our declining in numbers, and not triggering the same interest among youngsters is because there's no place to learn.

Being seasoned shooters, national champions, world champions, whatever we are, doesn't mean we don't need a coach.
Yes, we do need a coach! We do need a person that makes us to think the basis again and again, point out the flaws and the positives. A person that anticipate our needs, fears and ambition. A person that designs a training plan and goals, and carries on the shooter to achieve, to excel.

I think we have entered a "bad" circle towards potential coaches... the ones that exist don't want to coach us because they see persons that are too deep in their egos, not having open minds, or at least not listening. On the other hand, we are not creating a school that could developed benchrest coaches.

Are we doomed?
Don't think so, but I deeply believe we have to act differently to preserve the sport we love the best.
Click to expand...

One of the biggest problems in the benchrest sports is the reluctance of those on top to share EVERYTHING. Egos do not permit it, unfortunately. There are far too many people with big hat sizes in all the Benchrest disciplines, from my experience and it's reasonably extensive. I think it does keep people away. In one case, a close friend planned to build a rifle to compete in one of the disciplines I was running matches for. He saw some ugly things going on by some of these big hat sized people and sold all the components he had amassed. He wanted nothing to do with people like this. I shoot because I enjoy it and ignore those around me. There have been times I would have welcomed someone to watch me and critique what I was or wasn't doing. At this point in my life, I just hope to wake up every day :)

Pete
 
Pete Wass said:
One of the biggest problems in the benchrest sports is the reluctance of those on top to share EVERYTHING. Egos do not permit it, unfortunately. There are far too many people with big hat sizes in all the Benchrest disciplines, from my experience and it's reasonably extensive. I think it does keep people away. In one case, a close friend planned to build a rifle to compete in one of the disciplines I was running matches for. He saw some ugly things going on by some of these big hat sized people and sold all the components he had amassed. He wanted nothing to do with people like this. I shoot because I enjoy it and ignore those around me. There have been times I would have welcomed someone to watch me and critique what I was or wasn't doing. At this point in my life, I just hope to wake up every day :)

Pete
Click to expand...

Thanks Pete!

I'm not better nor worst than others, I just do a lot of F2F trainings and virtual ones to try to develop benchrest around here. I use all international matches to talk to friends and great shooters and try to learn the more I can. Also, forums have been, alongside with a lot of emails to some special US/EU friends, a strong contribution to my learning.
I also attend all special shooting trainings that I can, irrespective of discipline, as well as, psychological ones.
In fact, my club , ST2, started last year the Shooting Training Academy, where I succeeded to introduce the benchrest discipline, and next friday we will broadcast the 3rd of a series about cleaning and maintenance of fire arms.
Interesting enough, we have reach, more than 40 attendees, but just 1 or 2 benchrest shooters... go figure.
 
I don't understand

what the intrigue is with distance shooting, beyond 300 yards. I don't get it. The equipment demand is similar in cost I would think. I just don't understand why people want to lie on the ground to shoot. A person such as I with a bad back and a big belly, well, not comfortable at all and damn hard to get up! Perhaps the perceived "stuffyness" of BR shooters keeps folks away or they think it is way too difficult somehow. It's an interesting to think about. Perhaps asking folks on here, those who do not compete, why they don't. I'm pretty sure there are more people out there who have Benchrest guns and equipment who never go to sanctioned matches than there are people who compete. Me, i won't waste my time shooting "Club" matches ususlly but then, that's me.

Pete
 
Someone touched on sharing of info from the experienced to the inexperienced. When I began shooting IR50/50 I was in a hornets nest shooting with some of the best in the game at that time. Now, that was a "good thing", but beating them wasn't going to happen. LOL I asked lots of questions, sometimes to the point I'm sure they got tired of hearing them. Mostly regarding HOW to read and judge the wind. As I became more experienced, i.e., winning now and then, I realized I was asking questions that they could not possibly answer correctly. Your rifle/ammo combination might handle wind drift better or worse than another's. So, where I thought maybe they were holding out info to maybe keep me down was wrong thinking on my part. Some things you just have to put the time and ammo in and learn. But, these things, 1-great rifle and 2- greater ammo 3- greater ammo 4-greater ammo are essential. I never went to a match where I didn't think my equipment was as good as any there, but I ALWAYS wondered who had the best ammo, and doubted it was me. When I was shooting I'd buy between 8-12 cases of ammo per season, and sell off what didn't work as well for me. Lot's of $$$ for ammo.

I wil say the guys I used to shoot with were great shooters, and even greater people. I sure miss them all.
 
Coaching RFBR a very difficult thing to do!

Coaching someone, anyone, to shoot rimfire benchrest (RFBR) is a difficult thing to do. Just giving advice on how to approach a target is difficult.

Everyone prone to shoot rimfire RFBR already knows more than everyone else that shoots RFBR. That is why you see so many arguments on the forums.

Many of our best and most experienced shooters will not post on the forums because they know whatever they say will get trashed.

Let me give you an example:

How to approach a target.

1. Start at the bottom of the target and work your way up. Reason gravity!

2. Shoot at least 10+ sighters to lube/warm your barrel.

3. If you are shooting a spring loaded rest, start on the side of the target that works toward your spring. Always work toward the spring. If you have a spring loaded top

put the hard side on the right. Barrel torque!

4. If your first target is a center punch shoot the next. If not go back to the sighters and find out why.

If the second target is a center punch shoot the third. If not, go back to the sighters.

If the third shot is a center punch do not be tempted to shoot that 4th target yet.

Go to the far side of the target and shoot sighters until you are shooting center punches.

Then work your way back shooting the 5th target, then the forth target to complete the line, always going to the sighters if not center punching.

Shoot the rest of the target using this method.

Note: Yes, I know, many have shot perfect targets by running through the target as fast as they can and before the conditions change.

Yes, it can, and has been done. But that goes against the odds.

Now we all know most of the time conditions will keep you from shooting exact center punches.

You will have to take that in to account when you decide what is as good as you can expect.

The idea is don't go to the next scoring target if you missed or barely hit the last scoring target. Never give away points.

Give yourself every reason to believe you know where your next shot is going.

Now if I haven't stirred up enough controversy I'll add one more thing that got me laughed at the first time I posted it.

When one shoots you normally know which side the push is coming from so you hold windage to account for the push. Push has a vertical component so you must

hold for that as well. That push is rarely constant meaning sometimes you get more, sometimes you get less.

Your hold off may have you hitting hard 10's but not always Xs. Hitting just inside the push enough not to make an X.

You can move your hold point and go for Xs, or you can keep your hold point and expect to keep shooting 10s with some Xs.

It is a hard choice deciding to stay with safe side of the 10 ring or move closer to the center.

Many times moving your hold point results in missing the 10 ring altogether.

In IR 50 that 9 may cost you the match. Going for 10's vs Xs can be a real thing.

Now I've spit this out there I'm sure most of the people reading this think I'm full of it, and I may be.

But that is why coaching is so hard.

I've got the flame suit on so bring it!

TKH
 
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Excellent post Tony. When I first started in rimfire BR Steve Arnold shot with us and I tried to watch him shoot thru my spotting scope whenever we were on different relays. I was always amazed at how often his BAD shots were on sighters, and his X's were for score. It was like he had a sense of when a bad shot was going to happen. He was one of the best of his time. I always varied my shooting, depending on conditions. Windy, twichey conditions, require a different approach. I went fast when I had to, and was deliberate when it was necessary. But, there's something to be said for getting in the zone, with the wind flags, the rifle, and the task at hand, to the point you notice nothing else going on in the world. That's when it's best, and usually the score is a good one. Of course all of this assumes you have a great rest setup, great rifle, and top flight ammo. But, the days when the wind is blowing 10-20 mph, blowing down wind flags, etc, those days are fun!!
 
Thanks Tony

tonykharper said:
Coaching someone, anyone, to shoot rimfire benchrest (RFBR) is a difficult thing to do. Just giving advice on how to approach a target is difficult.

Everyone prone to shoot rimfire RFBR already knows more than everyone else that shoots RFBR. That is why you see so many arguments on the forums.

Many of our best and most experienced shooters will not post on the forums because they know whatever they say will get trashed.

Let me give you an example:

How to approach a target.

1. Start at the bottom of the target and work your way up. Reason gravity!

2. Shoot at least 10+ sighters to lube/warm your barrel.

3. If you are shooting a spring loaded rest, start on the side of the target that works toward your spring. Always work toward the spring. If you have a spring loaded top

put the hard side on the right. Barrel torque!

4. If your first target is a center punch shoot the next. If not go back to the sighters and find out why.

If the second target is a center punch shoot the third. If not, go back to the sighters.

If the third shot is a center punch do not be tempted to shoot that 4th target yet.

Go to the far side of the target and shoot sighters until you are shooting center punches.

Then work your way back shooting the 5th target, then the forth target to complete the line, always going to the sighters if not center punching.

Shoot the rest of the target using this method.

Note: Yes, I know, many have shot perfect targets by running through the target as fast as they can and before the conditions change.

Yes, it can, and has been done. But that goes against the odds.

Now we all know most of the time conditions will keep you from shooting exact center punches.

You will have to take that in to account when you decide what is as good as you can expect.

The idea is don't go to the next scoring target if you missed or barely hit the last scoring target. Never give away points.

Give yourself every reason to believe you know where your next shot is going.

Now if I haven't stirred up enough controversy I'll add one more thing that got me laughed at the first time I posted it.

When one shoots you normally know which side the push is coming from so you hold windage to account for the push. Push has a vertical component so you must

hold for that as well. That push is rarely constant meaning sometimes you get more, sometimes you get less.

Your hold off may have you hitting hard 10's but not always Xs. Hitting just inside the push enough not to make an X.

You can move your hold point and go for Xs, or you can keep your hold point and expect to keep shooting 10s with some Xs.

It is a hard choice deciding to stay with safe side of the 10 ring or move closer to the center.

Many times moving your hold point results in missing the 10 ring altogether.

In IR 50 that 9 may cost you the match. Going for 10's vs Xs can be a real thing.

Now I've spit this out there I'm sure most of the people reading this think I'm full of it, and I may be.

But that is why coaching is so hard.

I've got the flame suit on so bring it!

TKH
Click to expand...

I don't disagree with one thing you have said and have picked up a couple of pointers. I have experienced some of those things you have pointed out. Another aspect of having someone watch one is to pick up on any "Table Manner Problem" a shooter may have. I think folks can be doing things they shouldn't and not realize it. I have watched a lot of shooters and definitely have seen them do things they shouldn't. This is more of my area of interest in a coach. Also the mental attitude thing I know coaches do. I often, especially as I have aged, sometimes never get my head into the game. Consequently one does not or can not win unless one is 100 percent into it.

Thanks again,

Pete
 
Great post Tony

What you described is all about attitude.
And attitude is the hardest thing to change...
The thing is... without the right attitude you'll never win.

We can divide the benchrest, or any sport, approach into three main categories. For this purpose I would not group by shooters ability, but instead, by conditions leading to success.

1. Gear
2. Technique
3. Attitude

The two first points are not focused here, because they will better fit on training. Gear acquisition, and its maintenance is all about knowledge and budget. Even a person that doesn't know how to shoot, with the right knowledge can buy the best gear. Technique is the same, is about ability to learn, execute correctly and repeat. It's better served with a Trainer. Someone that master the how's and why's and can transmit them in a perceptive way.
Now, you face a shooter that has all the knowledge, and budget, and have gone successfully through the learning process. Is this his passport for winning? From my perspective he has the ticket for it but is not able to choose the right plane to land there, if if know what I mean. Sometimes he pick the right one, and feels a big ego rise, but majority of times he fall short...
Then, an interior battle will develop, with not rare delusions periods, as he cannot understand what's missing.
Depending on the personality, and mainly beliefs, the choice between points 1 and 2 or 3 will be not an easy task. If the route 3 is not the taken one, he will be lost fighting to learn more technique and to buy "better" gear.
The process will circle... sooner than later, disruption will occur with sudden disinterest and lost for benchrest competition or going to another category...

Attitude is the main driver of winners and champions!
Attitude is about coaching. Sometimes, people tend to go through the mentor route. Mentoring has proved a successful way in intelectual and academic fields, but yet to prove in sports. It looks like because mentoring doesn't tailor attitude, but functions by exemple. By exemple in sports, just doesn't work.
Coaching is the answer for the ones that wan't to achieve the last podium step, knowing that only one can be there... and to be there you had to fight a bunch of pretenders.

The right coach is even harder to find then just a coach!
Commitment between both persons, I didn't express personalities by purpose, is essential, and it starts from the very first questions asked and answers given. If you want a coach, be prepared to be able to choose one. It's up to you, to first understand, why you need/want one.
Tony's post is a very sensitive coach approach. A coach don't demand, don't impose, just anticipate what you could not yet realize.
That's the most important competency you should seek for, in a coach.
 
tonykharper said:
Coaching someone, anyone, to shoot rimfire benchrest (RFBR) is a difficult thing to do. Just giving advice on how to approach a target is difficult.

Everyone prone to shoot rimfire RFBR already knows more than everyone else that shoots RFBR. That is why you see so many arguments on the forums.

Many of our best and most experienced shooters will not post on the forums because they know whatever they say will get trashed.

Let me give you an example:

How to approach a target.

1. Start at the bottom of the target and work your way up. Reason gravity!

2. Shoot at least 10+ sighters to lube/warm your barrel.

3. If you are shooting a spring loaded rest, start on the side of the target that works toward your spring. Always work toward the spring. If you have a spring loaded top

put the hard side on the right. Barrel torque!

4. If your first target is a center punch shoot the next. If not go back to the sighters and find out why.

If the second target is a center punch shoot the third. If not, go back to the sighters.

If the third shot is a center punch do not be tempted to shoot that 4th target yet.

Go to the far side of the target and shoot sighters until you are shooting center punches.

Then work your way back shooting the 5th target, then the forth target to complete the line, always going to the sighters if not center punching.

Shoot the rest of the target using this method.

Note: Yes, I know, many have shot perfect targets by running through the target as fast as they can and before the conditions change.

Yes, it can, and has been done. But that goes against the odds.

Now we all know most of the time conditions will keep you from shooting exact center punches.

You will have to take that in to account when you decide what is as good as you can expect.

The idea is don't go to the next scoring target if you missed or barely hit the last scoring target. Never give away points.

Give yourself every reason to believe you know where your next shot is going.

Now if I haven't stirred up enough controversy I'll add one more thing that got me laughed at the first time I posted it.

When one shoots you normally know which side the push is coming from so you hold windage to account for the push. Push has a vertical component so you must

hold for that as well. That push is rarely constant meaning sometimes you get more, sometimes you get less.

Your hold off may have you hitting hard 10's but not always Xs. Hitting just inside the push enough not to make an X.

You can move your hold point and go for Xs, or you can keep your hold point and expect to keep shooting 10s with some Xs.

It is a hard choice deciding to stay with safe side of the 10 ring or move closer to the center.

Many times moving your hold point results in missing the 10 ring altogether.

In IR 50 that 9 may cost you the match. Going for 10's vs Xs can be a real thing.

Now I've spit this out there I'm sure most of the people reading this think I'm full of it, and I may be.

But that is why coaching is so hard.

I've got the flame suit on so bring it!

TKH
Click to expand...

Tony great, post I agree with everything you have suggested.
I would like to add that your equipment should determine chasing X's (as I call it). If your real group size is too large, it is not going to work. The other thing is
confidence in your equipment without that, good luck. The other part of my chasing X's is the amount of hold off. I will go about half the needed distance to
begin with, until I get real brave, or I need to have high "X" count to compete with the Tony's of the world.

I would also like to mention that shooting IR/ 50/50 is a new ball game. I like to go vertical because it is less work readjusting the sand in the rear bag mostly the vertical. Then when I
move to the next row over, work the horizontal, and the vertical, because of angle change of stock in rear bag. A good "Return to battery" is a must to expect good scores.

The other thing I would like to say is "every shot is a sighter" Hitting the X is not enough. I try for full center hits. I do not like to plug HEHE

Dean
 
I'm haveing my Farley top rebuilt

so it will be interesting to see how that goes, with regard to equipment.

Pete
 
Pete Wass said:
I have had the theory for a time that most of us if not all could benefit greatly by having a Shooting Coach, just as other athletes have coaches. I think for older folks, such as myself, who have a declining ability to remember things, someone who would watch us when we shoot and what we shoot in, could cut the learning curve greatly.

I don't know if he still does this but Tony Boyer offered seminars for a few years. It seems to me that some of the top RF shooters could make a few bucks; perhaps pay for their trips by offering shooting seminars. Wadda ya think?
Click to expand...
i think coaches are fine but only at practice not at matches no coach or competer should be behind the firing line with spoting scope during competion rember one on one
 
BillBrawand said:
i think coaches are fine but only at practice not at matches no coach or competer should be behind the firing line with spoting scope during competion rember one on one
Click to expand...

Bill you are exactly right. There should not be anyone coaching anyone during the match.
Although I have seen shooters forget to shoot a target and were getting up when someone behind them told them to take another look. That doesn't bother me but I've seen people get really upset by it.

TKH
 
tonykharper said:
bill you are exactly right. There should not be anyone coaching anyone during the match.
Although i have seen shooters forget to shoot a target and were getting up when someone behind them told them to take another look. That doesn't bother me but i've seen people get really upset by it.

Tkh
Click to expand...
only spectors should belowed with spoting scope watching shooters. Tony i dont see what you see in rimfire but center has changed it isnt coaching when ther shooting it nows a whole diff ball game with 4 or 5 diff shooters coaching one another it isnt one and one any more
 
I think I made a right turn at the bakery or something.

What type of coaching could be done during a competion? As far as telling someone they missed a target, I have done that several times
during a match to the shooter next to me. I guess I don't take any match that serious.

Dean
 
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