Has anyone seen this?

[coyotechet]

Got it somewhat fixed

I cut the barrel up to see a curve but ended up with a barrel that had little or no curve and made a big mess in doing it.

Chet

 

[Rubicon Prec.]

After reading Jackie's post of how he cut a barrel into 2-inch length pieces....

This is awesome. I love seeing this.

 

[alinwa]

^^^ ^^^

+1

 

[Zebra13]

I am friends with the engineer that set up Remington's recently new button rifled barrel line in Huntsville. Feed steel in one end and with a few QC checks along the way they get a finished barrel at the other end. Multiple tractor trailer loads of equipment. Millions of dollars invested. You're telling me they are scrapping that process to go to a more complicated, time consuming and more expensive process. I don't buy it. I've chambered oh probably 7500 barrels in the last 11 years. I have over 100 on the shop floor right now. I can inspect concentricity in the throat with a $25 jewelers loupe in about 10 seconds. I can train someone to do it in about 5 minutes.

David,

Is Remington going to start button rifling all their barrels?

Justin

 

[alinwa]

Got it somewhat fixed

I cut the barrel up to see a curve but ended up with a barrel that had little or no curve and made a big mess in doing it.

Chet

I'm working on burning up a few right now which lope perty good..... I do intend to chop some of them.

Thank You for this!

 

[killswitch505]

After reading Jackie's post of how he cut a barrel into 2-inch length pieces. I went and cut up a barrel first did as Jackie did and scribed a straight line
then band sawed it into the 2-inch pieces. Then I measured both sides of each piece.
Here are my finding of the cutup barrel. Not sure of the manufacture of the barrel 6 mm LV 6 groove. I had to make a bushing to fit the ball mic to get a good reading of the cuts on both sides. looks like a pretty straight barrel
Chet

-----Right-------left-----runout
1---.3628------.3628---.0000 crown .908 dia.
2---.3890------.3910---.002
3---.4050------.4020---.003
4---.4223------.4190---.0033
5---.4383------.4352---.0031
6---.4527------.4495---.0032
7---.4700------.4670---.003
8---.4852------.4822---.003
9---.5033------.5000---.0033
10--.5049------.5025---.0024 chamber 1.193 dia. length of cut 2.540 inch long and I pretty sure I cut off the first 2 inches.

Thank you for this!!!!

 

[JamieD]

I am friends with the engineer that set up Remington's recently new button rifled barrel line in Huntsville. Feed steel in one end and with a few QC checks along the way they get a finished barrel at the other end. Multiple tractor trailer loads of equipment. Millions of dollars invested. You're telling me they are scrapping that process to go to a more complicated, time consuming and more expensive process. I don't buy it. I've chambered oh probably 7500 barrels in the last 11 years. I have over 100 on the shop floor right now. I can inspect concentricity in the throat with a $25 jewelers loupe in about 10 seconds. I can train someone to do it in about 5 minutes.

First off, I said no such thing. My goal is to produce better quality barrels and rifles and do it at scale and yes that costs a ton of money in both research and development. This is about making a better rifle and at a much larger scale. Not 7500 barrels in 11 years depending on a single persons skill set. Hopefully that many every single year and not needing your specialized skill set (or mine) at all.

Jamie Dodson
Wolf Precision, Inc.
www.wolfprecision.net

 

[Bnhpr]

Stacking tolerances

3 to 5 thou on custom rifle runout?

Not mine pal.

put a couple zeroes in front of it.

 

[Butch Lambert]

Time to move on.

 

[jackie schmidt]

But before we do Butch, I di this today in some spare time.

I took an unlimited barrel that a friend gave me, he said it was not worth much. So I figured it would be a good sacrificial lamb.

First, I parted the chamber off to the lands. I also cut 1/2 inch from the muzzle.

I then chucked it between centers and took a very light cut down it, the polishing it to where it was as straight as I can measure. I then scribed a straight line down the length.

I the parted the barrel into about 2 1/4 pieces, numbering each piece so I would know it’s place in the length.

I then made sure three were no burrs on the lands. I then placed each piece between centers. Actually, I chucked a precision live center lightly in a three jaw. That way I could spin each piece on those centers.



I the placed each piece between centers, and with a “tenth” indicator, ascertained the run out in the middle each piece and recording the high side in relation to the scribed line.

I put a magic marker down the scribed line so it would show up in pictures

http://benchrest.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=23487&stc=1&d=1587079641

http://benchrest.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=23488&stc=1&d=1587079723

http://benchrest.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=23488&stc=1&d=1587079723

http://benchrest.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=23490&stc=1&d=1587079842

As you can see, the barrel took a fairly steady progression off center to a little over 004 total indicator run out, then took a sudden right turn to about .008 off center, then came back toward the scribed line at the muzzle.

The piece marked 4 was the most run out to the right, then it took a sudden turn all the way back past the scribed line, then moved the other way back towards the scribed line.

Before I cut this thing up, I looked trough the bore as it was turning in the lathe. It looks pretty bad.

Anyway, as you can see, the barrel does have a natural curve until it hit that’s spot about 2/3 way down, then took off in another direction. It then started coming back the other way toward the muzzle.

Keep in mind, these readings are total indicator run out. The off center is just half that. So about the most off center any spot was from another was just .004.

 

[Bnhpr]

Jackie,

When you say its not worth much, do you mean it was never a good barrel? or was it shot out?

I had a barrel 5-6 years ago with a bow, and I got it to shoot, with some trial and error.

Rather start with something better, but it was the hand I was dealt.

Ben

 

[JamieD]

Time to move on.

Yea,
Its time to move on, you bashed my product here and then took the time to find our youtube channel and bash it there and on another forum. Without knowing a thing about us, our results or the work we do exactly. You and Dave Tooley are nothing but a bunch of me too's. I don't care how much you build, you are doing nothing but copying best practices. Things that others did before you, copy cats. Go and invent something to really change the industry yourselves or get out of the way so other can pick up the torch and try and really do something great. No, you just want to stand around and criticize and pass public opinion based on your own self preserving bias.

Best of luck to you both,

Jamie Dodson
Wolf Precision, Inc.

 

[jackie schmidt]

Jackie,

When you say its not worth much, do you mean it was never a good barrel? or was it shot out?

I had a barrel 5-6 years ago with a bow, and I got it to shoot, with some trial and error.

Rather start with something better, but it was the hand I was dealt.

Ben

It never shot at a competitive level. In the ten shot format, it was probably a .300 barrel at best.

 

[jackie schmidt]

I'm not your pal, and if you're not at least using spyders I guarantee your throats are not running anywhere close to .001 let alone the .00003 to .00005. If you are running a reamer into the barrel, then you know or you don't know about the curvature. Choosing not to know is up to you. Denying it exists and its problem has been the problem for 80 yers. We now have a way to deal with it reliably and predictably. Making the best of an imperfect product (the barrel) and things we don't have control over. In making a barrel, you cannot drill a perfectly straight hole, so how is your straight reamer cutting a straight throat several inches deep in a barrel that has curvature to the bore. It is imposable, the best technique to address it up to this point was spyders. The ACE is taking it to another lever. Still not perfect, but predictable and more reliable than using 1880's technology. And please spare me any the nostalgia.

Jamie Dodson
Wolf Precision

Most accuracy minded gunsmiths do indeed use some method to true the ID’s of barrels to where the chamber and throat run true with each other.

Many use the Gordy Range Rod Method, truing the first 4 or five inches of the ID so the reamer is following a reasonably straight hole.

Others true the muzzle and that portion of the chamber end where the throat will form, then drill and single point bore the third spot, ie the chamber portion, true with these two spots. This is how I do barrels. If you know what you are doing, you can keep all three running within a few “tenths” of each other.

My contention has been that if your gunsmith cannot do this, then you need to find someone who can.

From a machinist view, I can see the use of your product. It will enable you to mass produce barrels on a CNC setup with a reasonable likelihood that things will be true, using the labor skills of an operator rather than those of a machinist.

I won’t argue that point. Except once someone commits to your method, they are locked into you as the supplier. Another option would be to sell the chamber adapter, ACE, and the print for machining the barrel to fit.

 

[Butch Lambert]

Yea,
Its time to move on, you bashed my product here and then took the time to find our youtube channel and bash it there and on another forum. Without knowing a thing about us, our results or the work we do exactly. You and Dave Tooley are nothing but a bunch of me too's. I don't care how much you build, you are doing nothing but copying best practices. Things that others did before you, copy cats. Go and invent something to really change the industry yourselves or get out of the way so other can pick up the torch and try and really do something great. No, you just want to stand around and criticize and pass public opinion based on your own self preserving bias.

Best of luck to you both,

Jamie Dodson
Wolf Precision, Inc.

Jamie, You guys come and go. Your method does not straighten the barrel. Properly indicated and set up I'm indicated to the throat. Taper bored to that indication will allow my reamer to follow the taper bored hole.
Remember, Jackie and Dave forgot more about machining than you know. Sorry it put you panties in a wad.

 

[jackie schmidt]

Thanks Jackie and thank you for taking the time to cut the barrels. I appreciate you looking at it as to what it was made for. You got it. The one thing is patenting and protecting it as it is my life's work. So it does limit what we can do and how we can sell. But there is a lot of time, effort and expense is developing new product. We are working with and our goal is to get this to a bigger manufacturer than us already set up and capable of running it at a larger scale. If you even want to talk feel free to call anytime.

Jamie Dodson
Wolf Precision, Inc.
814-262-7994
www.wolfprecision.net

For a person such as myself to make this, I would have to make the ACE adapter in two setups, first establishing the chamber and action tenon, then turning it around to machine the ID thread for the Actual barrel. The inside face mating surface of the ACE would have to be cut sharp and square. The corresponding surface on the barrel would also have to be equally sharp and flat to form as close to a gas tight mating surface to avoid any heat cutting and corrosion a few thousands in front of the neck of the chamber. For the barrels mating surface on the ACE, this dimension would me exactly the same as the face of the ACE to the internal mating face at the end of the chamber.

Here is a pencil sketch of what I think you are doing.

http://benchrest.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=23495&stc=1&d=1587139830

I might make one up and see how it works.

 

[alinwa]

For a person such as myself to make this, I would have to make the ACE adapter in two setups, first establishing the chamber and action tenon, then turning it around to machine the ID thread for the Actual barrel. The inside face mating surface of the ACE would have to be cut sharp and square. The corresponding surface on the barrel would also have to be equally sharp and flat to form as close to a gas tight mating surface to avoid any heat cutting and corrosion a few thousands in front of the neck of the chamber. For the barrels mating surface on the ACE, this dimension would me exactly the same as the face of the ACE to the internal mating face at the end of the chamber.

Here is a pencil sketch of what I think you are doing.

http://benchrest.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=23495&stc=1&d=1587139830

I might make one up and see how it works.

I did mine differently.... I put the joint back near the neck/shoulder junction and therefore gas never impinges on the join, can play with neck size

 

[jackie schmidt]

I did mine differently.... I put the joint back near the neck/shoulder junction and therefore gas never impinges on the join, can play with neck size

I see your point. The neck contained in the barrel would seal the chamber, the only thing seeing the heat and pressure of the powder burn would be the disposable barrel.

You would have to still keep the mating surfaces extremely flat and sharp to avoid any brass flowing into the joint parting line..

 

[Rubicon Prec.]

Anyone think it will take more that threads centering the two pieces to maintain the required alignment? True, the opposing 60* threads are pretty good at centering, but I think there is still room for error. I think there would probably need to be some form of a boss or two with a very close slip fit, if not a slight interference fit on the connection. I mean, if this is going to be straighter than a chamber cut with a single form tool, these two parts pretty much need to align better than dead nuts.

 

[alinwa]

Anyone think it will take more that threads centering the two pieces to maintain ...........

See, the difference is, I DID IT.

So I can answer that question,

but I won't.

I've spent the last 20yrs arguing with people too lazy to DO, but who will still vomit forth opinion, folks who'll gobble, and stomp and spit unfounded drivel to no end..... I can't count the endless hours of typing I've wasted arguing proven, tested methods like "throwing VS weighing" only to find that the silly bint I'm arguing with has never done it. I have no idea whether the OP's system relies on threads to center but HE DID IT!! And is doing it..... and claims to be "competitive"..????... the crucible of time will determine the truth of that.

Folks like Jackie who DO STUFF instead of just grunting on about it get my vote of approbation. I'm happy to learn from folks experimentation, for instance whether barrels are "curved" or randomly zigzagged (Jackie's cut two now that are random)

I've got no problem with folks being "too busy making a living to perform hapless experiments".... I Get That..... but then it follows to SHUT UP and continue doing "best practices as you determine them to be" instead of restating the obvious.

I've had high end gunsmiths telling me for years that "finding the throat with a Gordy rod is stupid because..."climbs the bore"...."reads top of lands only"....etc etc..."

But I DID IT.... on video.....and within the resolution of a test indicator (maybe a third of a thou???) I can and did S H O W that there's no measurable difference between "Gordying" and direct reading on an indicator. That in fact I can "choke up" with thee Gordy and maybe even convince myself I'm splitting the thou's finer than froghairs...

It's fun to LEARN and COMPARE findings from folks who've done it, I'll leave the boring vicarious "discussions" to the other boards where "you and I BOTH know that if I had his money and he had a feather in his butt we'd both be tickled..." is appropriate phraseology


Meantime.... the 2 problems I have with the 2-piece barrel are #1, it's an extra flex joint and #2, I can't figger out how to do it in single-setups.

doesn't change the fact that I HAVE a 721 action with a funny looking chamber stub setting on my shelf with the end of a case sticking out LOL.... and a railgun barrel that fits it......and someday when I learn to shoot a rail it might get tested ...... in the rail against a conventional stock.....etc etc..... but UNTIL THEN, I'll keep my opinions quiet.