Has anyone seen this?

[JamieD]

I have listened to the Krieger Representative’s discussion before, and I am 100 percent in agreement with everything he says until he starts taking about the run out in the barrels ID.

He is flat out wrong. The simple fact is, the run out in a barrels ID is not manifested in the shape of a “bow”. And it amazes me, as a machinist, how Krieger allows this myth to be continually propagated. It might make could copy for those who have no basic knowledge of Machine shop practice, but there are quite a few of us out here who know better.

By the way, shoot nothing but Krieger Barrels.

I get what you are saying. Maybe the word Bow should be replaced with curved or offset. But the main thing is the rifling is curved or starts to wonder as you go into the barrel. This is the problem being pointed out. I think we can trust the guys who have been making quality barrels for more than 20+ years or at least consider their probably is truth with good intentions, I think it's just trying to explain it in a way so the average person understands or can picture it.

Jamie Dodson
Wolf Precision, Inc.
www.wolfprecision.net

 

[Butch Lambert]

Gordy's method is about cutting the throat straight and square with the lands and groove's

Jamie Dodson
Wolf Precision, Inc.
www.wolfprecision.net

Would you be kind enough to explain how his method is better than mine for a quality chamber?
I will be away from the computer for 2-3 hours. Need to make money while I can.

 

[jackie schmidt]

I get what you are saying. Maybe the word Bow should be replaced with curved or offset. But the main thing is the rifling is curved or starts to wonder as you go into the barrel. This is the problem being pointed out. I think we can trust the guys who have been making quality barrels for more than 20+ years or at least consider their probably is truth with good intentions, I think it's just trying to explain it in a way so the average person understands or can picture it.

Jamie Dodson
Wolf Precision, Inc.
www.wolfprecision.net

Trying to explain it to where the average person, with no knowledge of machining procedures, can understand it does not make the statement any more palatable.

Many of us out here, who are machinist, have long recognized the problems involved when attempting to machine a surface or bore truly straight with something that is far from it.

Most of us have developed machining methods that allow us to establish the chamber, threads, and tenon shoulder within extremely small tolerance numbers to a predetermined spot in a barrel, which can best be described as the first thing the bullet “sees” as it enters the throat, lead, or what ever you want to call it. And yes, we are talking about numbers that are measured in tenths of a thousandth, not thousandths.

 

[Mram10]

Mram10,
Do you have the slightest clue or do you just watch You Tuber Vid's to increase your IQ?


TactiKool & Remage Nut jobs will be all over this.BS.


I personally wouldn't waste my time or monies.

Dan, if you are going to talk crap to a man, be sure and keep that energy if you meet him in person. Back to blocking your arrogant, know it all self. You are the reason people leave forums. Add nothing and talk crap behind your keyboard. What a loser .....

 

[Mram10]

Hi Dan,
You can call it BS if you want. I thought you would remember me, we actually talked quite a while ago.

I always try to encourage people and companies who are trying to make our guns and industry better, not just dismiss or taint new things because they might endanger established ways of doing things and possibly bring change.

That said, this is for real and make no mistake that it is coming like it or not. This is what we believe is going to be the next big step in helping to manufacture at scale very high quality rifles to the masses at prices most can afford. It is our goal anyway.

Jamie Dodson
Wolf Precision, Inc.
www.wolfprecision.net

Good for you. Don’t let ..... like Dan get you away from trying to find a better way. I appreciate innovators rather than the dirtbags that sit in their basement trying to find fault with everything new in the world (that’s you Dan)

 

[jackie schmidt]

Explains why I can't shoot straight, thanks to these folks, I'm finding out that it's the first inch of a barrel that is the most accurate. All along I have been cutting off the first 3 or so inches before I even start a chamber...

I can attest to that.

In order to make weight on my LV, I have to keep the barrel weight, minus tuner, at about 78 ounces. I have always had to cut 2/3 of the straight from a Krieger Blank in order to make weight at 22 inches length.

Little did I know

 

[Butch Lambert]

Good for you. Don’t let ..... like Dan get you away from trying to find a better way. I appreciate innovators rather than the dirtbags that sit in their basement trying to find fault with everything new in the world (that’s you Dan)

Grow up feller, you are out of your environment.

 

[Rubicon Prec.]

You are right the throat is the same length. But the first inch or two of the barrel is the straightest portion and we don't have a reamer following the lands and grooves several inches deep before cutting it. The reamer always follow the lands and grooves in one way or another and the deeper you go the more you get into this issue. It is not an absolute perfect solution, but a whole lot straighter and less chance of having non-repeatable results as each barrel can and is different like a fingerprint. So we just stay out of that area and only cut the throat in the straightest portion we have to work with.

Jamie Dodson
Wolf Precision, Inc.
www.wolfprecision.net
814-262-7994

I don’t have the reamer following the lands/grooves for several inches either.

And regarding the first inch or two of the barrel being the straightest, first, you are certainly in the lapping bell at that point, certainly not somewhere I’d want the throat/leade to be. I’ve see too often rifling remaining in the free bore section on short cases without first cutting an inch off the chamber end. Next, you’d have to convince me that if you cut an inch or two from anywhere in the barrel, that a ground pin a tenth under bore diameter wouldn’t drop through it. True, bores are not straight, but I personally feel they are far straighter than the internet makes them out to be. I did send back a barrel the other day that had .010”+ of runout 3” from the breech when the breech and muzzle were running true. That is an extreme case. I’d have to draw it out to see the worst case arc that represents, but I bet in reality, over an inch or two, it’s minimal.

My reamers fully cut only the neck forward. They cut a minimal amount on there body and push the shoulder forward about .050”, because I machined those before the reamer is used.

My opinion, there’s far less chance of error due to tolerance stacking by doing it in a single setup, with a single tool, on a single piece of material. Just my opinion.

 

[WallyDog]

Economy of Scale

Let's hear some thoughts on this..........

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Za91qyhida8&feature=emb_logo

After watching the video and reading the comments Id say James has found a better way to make more accurate throats IN SCALE to larger number production barrels. Id do like the idea of changing the barrel material for longer life. I worked on die cast molds for a number of years that were subjected to extreme heat and cooling cycles. The heat checking we see in a barrel is that on a small scale. We could double throat life in our barrels if the material wasn't what it is now. Ease of machining is the opposite of long barrel life due to better steels like 19-9dl or H13 or even berrilyium nickel.
The reason we can chamber to the Nth degree of throat accuracy is that we try and indicate the actual throat area to zero and then chamber. It sure doesn't lend itself to mass numbers. I just did 2 barrels in my lathe and they took 3 hrs each from start to finish. I rough out my chamber and then insert a .236 gage pin. The pin is indicated till it reads zero. I doubt that can be done to scale.

 

[jackie schmidt]

I don’t have the reamer following the lands/grooves for several inches either.

And regarding the first inch or two of the barrel being the straightest, first, you are certainly in the lapping bell at that point, certainly not somewhere I’d want the throat/leade to be. I’ve see too often rifling remaining in the free bore section on short cases without first cutting an inch off the chamber end. Next, you’d have to convince me that if you cut an inch or two from anywhere in the barrel, that a ground pin a tenth under bore diameter wouldn’t drop through it. True, bores are not straight, but I personally feel they are far straighter than the internet makes them out to be. I did send back a barrel the other day that had .010”+ of runout 3” from the breech when the breech and muzzle were running true. That is an extreme case. I’d have to draw it out to see the worst case arc that represents, but I bet in reality, over an inch or two, it’s minimal.

My reamers fully cut only the neck forward. They cut a minimal amount on there body and push the shoulder forward about .050”, because I machined those before the reamer is used.

My opinion, there’s far less chance of error due to tolerance stacking by doing it in a single setup, with a single tool, on a single piece of material. Just my opinion.

Some years back, I took a Krieger unlimited barrel, put it between centers, and took a light cut to make it dead straight. I then scribed a straight line for it’s entire length. I then parted the barrel into 2 inch pieces.

This allowed me to, using a small ball micrometer, to see the wall thickness of each piece in relation to that scribed line.

I went to the trouble of doing this because we were in the same discussion concerning exactly how the out of trueness in the ID of a barrel was actually manefested. The people who were touting “clocking” barrels were saying that the bores were curved, and you had to compensate for that curve, and of course charge shooters for the service.

I found spots that were almost dead true all the way around, other spots were showing as much as .004 to .005 difference in the wall thickness of the drops. That is as much as .010 total indicator run out. The main thing was those that had the most run out were in random spots in relation to that scribed line., almost like the deep hole drill took a turn at that spot but suddenly went back the other way in a spot just 3 or 4 inches down the barrel, then maybe the other way as it progressed further.

In short, the out of trueness of the barrels ID in no way resembled a “curve”.

I asked then exactly what these gunsmiths were “clocking”, nobody really gave a good answer, because that would get in the way of common sense.

That is another reason it amazes me why the Krieger Representative kept talking about the “curve” on a barrel. They could easily do exactly the same thing I did.

I posted all of the results on this Forum. I am sure some of the older members remember it. I have done a search, but cannot find the thread. It might have got lost in the crash a number of years ago when Wilbur had to clean things out.

You all know me. I will go to extremes to Ascertain the truth when it comes to machine work. I have quite a few old unlimited barrels laying around. I just might do the same test again.

 

[MilGunsmith]

Old Idea with USG patents

The separate chamber idea has been used for years on the M2HB machine gun barrels. The barrel has a separate chamber split just behind the neck roughly on the datum line. There is a rifled stellite liner with a tapered bore rifled steel barrel in front of it. This gives a long life barrel that is also accurate.

 

[Mram10]

Some years back, I took a Krieger unlimited barrel, put it between centers, and took a light cut to make it dead straight. I then scribed a straight line for it’s entire length. I then parted the barrel into 2 inch pieces.

This allowed me to, using a small ball micrometer, to see the wall thickness of each piece in relation to that scribed line.

I went to the trouble of doing this because we were in the same discussion concerning exactly how the out of trueness in the ID of a barrel was actually manefested. The people who were touting “clocking” barrels were saying that the bores were curved, and you had to compensate for that curve, and of course charge shooters for the service.

I found spots that were almost dead true all the way around, other spots were showing as much as .004 to .005 difference in the wall thickness of the drops. That is as much as .010 total indicator run out. The main thing was those that had the most run out were in random spots in relation to that scribed line., almost like the deep hole drill took a turn at that spot but suddenly went back the other way in a spot just 3 or 4 inches down the barrel, then maybe the other way as it progressed further.

In short, the out of trueness of the barrels ID in no way resembled a “curve”.

I asked then exactly what these gunsmiths were “clocking”, nobody really gave a good answer, because that would get in the way of common sense.

That is another reason it amazes me why the Krieger Representative kept talking about the “curve” on a barrel. They could easily do exactly the same thing I did.

I posted all of the results on this Forum. I am sure some of the older members remember it. I have done a search, but cannot find the thread. It might have got lost in the crash a number of years ago when Wilbur had to clean things out.

You all know me. I will go to extremes to Ascertain the truth when it comes to machine work. I have quite a few old unlimited barrels laying around. I just might do the same test again.

Now that is a great experiment. I’ve been guilty of clocking the barrels on my builds because it was a consensus amongst builders. Thanks for the time and expense

 

[Rflshootr]

Hmmm

 

[Rubicon Prec.]

Some years back,....

I remember hearing about this, or possibly seeing the thread. I'd love to see the information again.

 

[coyotechet]

Cut barrel 2 inch

After reading Jackie's post of how he cut a barrel into 2-inch length pieces. I went and cut up a barrel first did as Jackie did and scribed a straight line
then band sawed it into the 2-inch pieces. Then I measured both sides of each piece.
Here are my finding of the cutup barrel. Not sure of the manufacture of the barrel 6 mm LV 6 groove. I had to make a bushing to fit the ball mic to get a good reading of the cuts on both sides. looks like a pretty straight barrel
Chet

-----Right-------left-----runout
1---.3628------.3628---.0000 crown .908 dia.
2---.3890------.3910---.002
3---.4050------.4020---.003
4---.4223------.4190---.0033
5---.4383------.4352---.0031
6---.4527------.4495---.0032
7---.4700------.4670---.003
8---.4852------.4822---.003
9---.5033------.5000---.0033
10--.5049------.5025---.0024 chamber 1.193 dia. length of cut 2.540 inch long and I pretty sure I cut off the first 2 inches.

 

[jackie schmidt]

Chet, my IPad will not download your attachments.

 

[Butch Lambert]

QUESTION?
Say your barrel bore is off .005" 18" in front of the throat, how far off is your throat. This is assuming that this is a measurement is constant from the throat to the muzzle.

 

[GeneT]

Chet, my IPad will not download your attachments.

I get a board error as well.

GsT

 

[Dave Tooley]

I am friends with the engineer that set up Remington's recently new button rifled barrel line in Huntsville. Feed steel in one end and with a few QC checks along the way they get a finished barrel at the other end. Multiple tractor trailer loads of equipment. Millions of dollars invested. You're telling me they are scrapping that process to go to a more complicated, time consuming and more expensive process. I don't buy it. I've chambered oh probably 7500 barrels in the last 11 years. I have over 100 on the shop floor right now. I can inspect concentricity in the throat with a $25 jewelers loupe in about 10 seconds. I can train someone to do it in about 5 minutes.

 

[Dave Tooley]

After reading Jackie's post of how he cut a barrel into 2-inch length pieces. I went and cut up a barrel first did as Jackie did and scribed a straight line
then band sawed it into the 2-inch pieces. Then I measured both sides of each piece.
Here are my finding of the cutup barrel. Not sure of the manufacture of the barrel 6 mm LV 6 groove. I had to make a bushing to fit the ball mic to get a good reading of the cuts on both sides. looks like a pretty straight barrel
Chet

Right left runout
1---.3628-----.3628---.0000 crown .908 dia.
2---.3890------.3910---.002
3---.4050------.4020---.003
4---.4223------.4190---.0033
5---.4383------.4352---.0031
6---.4527------.4495---.0032
7---.4700------.4670---.003
8---.4852------.4822---.003
9---.5033------.5000---.0033
10--.5049------.5025---.0024 chamber 1.193 dia. length of cut 2.540 inch long and I pretty sure I cut off the first 2 inches.



View attachment 23446View attachment 23447
View attachment 23448View attachment 23449

Runout numbers are the total so cut those in half for the actual wall thickness variations.