Let's hear some thoughts on this..........
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Za91qyhida8&feature=emb_logo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Za91qyhida8&feature=emb_logo
Has anyone seen this?
- Thread starter Rflshootr
- Start date
jackie schmidt
New member
He flunked Machine Shop 101 when dealing with the problem of establishing a third point dead true with points in a piece that is not straight with it’s self.
Basic machine shop practice dictates that when dealing with a piece that is not straight, you must employ a method of machining a third point true with two other trued points, the most affective way to accomplish that is by. single point machining.
I chamber barrels to were the actual lead and throat are within .0002 inch of the chamber. And yes, I Know how to check it to insure that type of chambering accuracy.
Another thing. The ID of barrels is not curved as he stated. The ID wonders from one direction to the other through the length of the barrel.
If you know what you are doing, I categorize this as a solution to a problem that does not exist.
I do see one benefit. You could maintain the same chamber from barrel to barrel if you have trouble keeping your chambers consistent from one barrel to the next.
Basic machine shop practice dictates that when dealing with a piece that is not straight, you must employ a method of machining a third point true with two other trued points, the most affective way to accomplish that is by. single point machining.
I chamber barrels to were the actual lead and throat are within .0002 inch of the chamber. And yes, I Know how to check it to insure that type of chambering accuracy.
Another thing. The ID of barrels is not curved as he stated. The ID wonders from one direction to the other through the length of the barrel.
If you know what you are doing, I categorize this as a solution to a problem that does not exist.
I do see one benefit. You could maintain the same chamber from barrel to barrel if you have trouble keeping your chambers consistent from one barrel to the next.
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Butch Lambert
Active member
That is a crock! You couldn't machine a bow in a barrel if you tried. Drill, bore, and ream will make a good chamber and throat.
Jerry H
Different Drummer
Well maybe he has a really crooked lathe alignment. I haven't seen throat misalignment's near that bad that he is talking about. 2-3 thousandths would be pretty bad in my opinion. The chamber throat junction he is advocating would more likely be way worse than a properly done traditionally reamed chamber.
coyotechet
Chet
The ACE is a neat way of chambering a barrel but does not hold true to first indicating the bore square then drilling boring then reaming. Indicate drill bore ream, the reamer now only follows the throat of the finished chamber which is indicated square to the bore.
But still the ace system is pretty neat.
I can see the ACE system can work that's for sure but you would have to have a very accurate double setup and still have more runout then, indicate drill bore ream in one set up.
Chet
But still the ace system is pretty neat.
I can see the ACE system can work that's for sure but you would have to have a very accurate double setup and still have more runout then, indicate drill bore ream in one set up.
Chet
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??????
Butch Lambert
Active member
I believe he is telling you the first inch or so of the breech is where the lap of a new barrel stops and changes direction. It is not the same size and shape as the rest of the bore.
coyotechet
Chet
After reading JamieD posts
I have to take my hat off to him and want to thank him for taking the time to post. Today CNC machines can and do things that is next to impossible on a manual machine, repeatability in accuracy for one it's all about the numbers. I heard a looong time ago that there is more than one way to skin a cat.
Chet
I have to take my hat off to him and want to thank him for taking the time to post. Today CNC machines can and do things that is next to impossible on a manual machine, repeatability in accuracy for one it's all about the numbers. I heard a looong time ago that there is more than one way to skin a cat.
Chet
I´m quite sure Andy from Bix n´Andy showed a very similar concept at the Austria WBC in 2007, not sure if it ever passed the prototype stage. I remember Jim Kelbly saying it could be difficult with the "chamber bit" being deemed as a very short barrel in the states, thus causing some kind of regulation issues, not sure in what way. Been a few years so the memories are a bit vague!
Peter
Peter
Rubicon Prec.
New member
I am guessing the barrel/throat portion still needs to be set up in the lathe the same way(s) every precision rifle builder is doing now, to make sure the throat is parallel and concentric to this big ol’ banana shaped bore?
If I found a chamber I cut was .003”+ of eccentric to the bore just ahead of the throat, I’d quit.
I personally see it as a solution to a problem that doesn’t exist, but being the capitalist I am, I hope they make millions.
If I found a chamber I cut was .003”+ of eccentric to the bore just ahead of the throat, I’d quit.
I personally see it as a solution to a problem that doesn’t exist, but being the capitalist I am, I hope they make millions.
Boyd Allen
Active member
IMO this is someone trying to convince the viewer that a problem exists order to sell the "solution".
Related story: Years ago I had occasion to get to know John Illum, who manufactured Rampro actions. Those actions got their start as part of bolt action unlimited silhouette pistols that he built.
https://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek049.html
In order to save some money he would buy various top make un-contoured barrel blanks and cut them in half to make two pistol barrels. I would guess that he cut more barrels in half than anyone that I can think of. To one degree or another, at their centers , their bores were off center. He told me that the cut barrels tended to be better in this regard than the button ones. Although I do not remember the numbers, they were greater than you might expect.
IMO if the chamber of the barrel is well aligned with the bore immediately in front of it, the throat should be square, if the rest of the process is properly done.
Related story: Years ago I had occasion to get to know John Illum, who manufactured Rampro actions. Those actions got their start as part of bolt action unlimited silhouette pistols that he built.
https://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek049.html
In order to save some money he would buy various top make un-contoured barrel blanks and cut them in half to make two pistol barrels. I would guess that he cut more barrels in half than anyone that I can think of. To one degree or another, at their centers , their bores were off center. He told me that the cut barrels tended to be better in this regard than the button ones. Although I do not remember the numbers, they were greater than you might expect.
IMO if the chamber of the barrel is well aligned with the bore immediately in front of it, the throat should be square, if the rest of the process is properly done.
jackie schmidt
New member
Ok, here are a few truths.
I watched the video. He begins with two statements in order to convince you that there is indeed something wrong with the so called antiquated practice of chambering barrels using conventional methods.
The first is that description of a barrel’s ID. If he has taken the time to section a barrel and ascertain the true nature of the run out in the ID of every barrel, he would see that the barrel’s ID is not bowed like a banana.
The second are the absurd tolerance’s he describes in the explaining of throat being off center with the chamber and how that affects accuracy. .001 to .005 of an inch of throat miss alignment in a finished chamber? Good grief, if I have the lands and grooves of the lead and throat running out more than .0003 with the rest of the chamber when I am finished, I start looking for the cause.
True, the steps involved in the entire operation of chambering is predicated on getting all machining operations truly straight with the throat. If your procedures are producing numbers over .001 inch, you need to review your setup and ascertain why.
Any Gunsmith doing extreme accuracy chambering can say the same thing. Since there are Gunsmiths who do indeed use CNC machines with excellent results, perhaps the cause of failure should be anylized.
My guess is the way they are doing barrels on their CNC machines is not producing the kind of accuracy in machining that is required for extreme accuracy. Since their production needs mandates the use of this equipment, they had to come up with something to make it all line up.
Which get us back to a solution in search of a problem. Rather than over complicating the machining operations required in establishing chambers, threads, and tenon shoulders that are indeed truly straight with the throat, why not figure out why your procedures are producing unsatisfactory results.
I watched the video. He begins with two statements in order to convince you that there is indeed something wrong with the so called antiquated practice of chambering barrels using conventional methods.
The first is that description of a barrel’s ID. If he has taken the time to section a barrel and ascertain the true nature of the run out in the ID of every barrel, he would see that the barrel’s ID is not bowed like a banana.
The second are the absurd tolerance’s he describes in the explaining of throat being off center with the chamber and how that affects accuracy. .001 to .005 of an inch of throat miss alignment in a finished chamber? Good grief, if I have the lands and grooves of the lead and throat running out more than .0003 with the rest of the chamber when I am finished, I start looking for the cause.
True, the steps involved in the entire operation of chambering is predicated on getting all machining operations truly straight with the throat. If your procedures are producing numbers over .001 inch, you need to review your setup and ascertain why.
Any Gunsmith doing extreme accuracy chambering can say the same thing. Since there are Gunsmiths who do indeed use CNC machines with excellent results, perhaps the cause of failure should be anylized.
My guess is the way they are doing barrels on their CNC machines is not producing the kind of accuracy in machining that is required for extreme accuracy. Since their production needs mandates the use of this equipment, they had to come up with something to make it all line up.
Which get us back to a solution in search of a problem. Rather than over complicating the machining operations required in establishing chambers, threads, and tenon shoulders that are indeed truly straight with the throat, why not figure out why your procedures are producing unsatisfactory results.
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Rubicon Prec.
New member
The bore is going to be “crooked”, regardless if you are cutting the throat/leade by it self or with the chamber reamer. The throat/leade is the same length, and covers the same amount of real estate in the bore, regardless.
Butch Lambert
Active member
Was going to call you, but I don't think you have an open mind.
What does the Gritters method get you? His method will not straighten a barrel. To briefly post that if I indicate the throat and taper bore to that point and then ream, how is your method even close to this. Machining as I do and most accuracy smiths the chamber will be coaxial to the bore and throat. My reamer follows the taper bored hole and not a reamer bushing.
Now I don't know if you or somebody else said a bore is straighter in a cut rifle barrel. I won't post an opinion on the advantages of either cut rifle or button, but what does the rifling method have to do with a straighter bore?
What does the Gritters method get you? His method will not straighten a barrel. To briefly post that if I indicate the throat and taper bore to that point and then ream, how is your method even close to this. Machining as I do and most accuracy smiths the chamber will be coaxial to the bore and throat. My reamer follows the taper bored hole and not a reamer bushing.
Now I don't know if you or somebody else said a bore is straighter in a cut rifle barrel. I won't post an opinion on the advantages of either cut rifle or button, but what does the rifling method have to do with a straighter bore?
jackie schmidt
New member
I have listened to the Krieger Representative’s discussion before, and I am 100 percent in agreement with everything he says until he starts taking about the run out in the barrels ID.
He is flat out wrong. The simple fact is, the run out in a barrels ID is not manifested in the shape of a “bow”. And it amazes me, as a machinist, how Krieger allows this myth to be continually propagated. It might make could copy for those who have no basic knowledge of Machine shop practice, but there are quite a few of us out here who know better.
By the way, shoot nothing but Krieger Barrels.
He is flat out wrong. The simple fact is, the run out in a barrels ID is not manifested in the shape of a “bow”. And it amazes me, as a machinist, how Krieger allows this myth to be continually propagated. It might make could copy for those who have no basic knowledge of Machine shop practice, but there are quite a few of us out here who know better.
By the way, shoot nothing but Krieger Barrels.