Gun Laws and Doing Barrel Work.

Don said:
So Jackie, it would seem that you/we can continue to do our hobby gunsmithing, and that most the previous advice was full of hoowee...........................Don
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Don, I wouldn't say the advice is hoowee. It dosen't matter how you and I interpet, "occasionally", "livelyhood and profit",It matters how ATF interpets it.

I don't know how many barrels Jackie or you fits in a year. And I am not aware weather you charge for the work or not. So let me preface my suggestions.

If you are charging for work, that suggest "for profit".
If you working on a rifle for a friend once a week, that suggest "devoting time". If your fitting 30 barrels a year one could conclude your "a buisness."

It's in there eyes not yours and mine.
If you guys are not charging. No Problem.
If your doing 30 a year and charging, GOOD QUESTION FOR THE BATF.

Jim See
 
I think this is an excellent thread...rhetoric, opinion or whatever. At some point I think most of us would benefit a discussion with the ATF for clarification. Not that anyone needs to discuss what they have done, but just what they would like to do going forward and what license, procedure etc. if any is needed....then of course feed back to the post. I have several licenses from the US governement already..and I am certainly familiar with their process.

Ben
 
I wish the ATF was on the same page everywhere. I just talked to a agent wednesday AM, and had asked about a hobby of gunsmithing in my garage, not taking money, in my spare time, no hours of operation, and he said yes! period, did not even studder. I even said that I would be doing very little gun work, adjust triggers and rifinish stocks, bedding and an occasional barrel replacement. It did not matter, a type 1 was required. I said I dont take money, did not matter. You are doing it for someone else. The upside is he stated it was not a problem to issue a FFL to someone in that instance. They do it all the time.
 
Ffl

Rustystud said:
The following is a BATF public letter dated January 14, 2009. You can't get much hotter of the press.

1. Jackie Gunsmiths have to have a "type 001 deelers license if they keep someone elses' firearm/action without the owner being on the premise. You as an individual may work on someone elses firearm without a license if they remain on the premise. I'll bet your homeowners or business insurance would drop you so fast it would suck you through the floor, if they knew you were working on guns with or without a license or a seperate gunsmiths liability policy. Joseph Chiarello & Co., INC is the only underwriter in the US who writes insurance for Gunsmiths. see www.guninsurance.com Hold on to your wallet you don't want it sucked out of your pocket.


http://www.atf.gov/firearms/rules/atf_ruling2009-2.pdf

Rustystud
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It was determined that a licensed dealer
could assemble firearms from component parts on an individual basis, but could not
engage in the business of assembling firearms from component parts in quantity lots for
purposes of sale or distribution without a manufacturer’s license
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This link has to do with what is considered "manufacturing" The bare stripped receivers can be bought and reqistered with AR15 & FAL type rifles. The parts kits are then purchased. The ATF is trying to keep a person from buying 10 receivers and parts kits and assembling and then selling the rifles WITHOUT A LICENSE. The assembling is done because money can be made with the completed rife. There are videos/dvd that walk anyone thru assembly.
 
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Jackie and Others..

With the exception of being a great shooter and great machinist. I have already worn Jackies shoes. I began doing machine work, and welding in 1969on lawn mowers, motorcycles, saws, and locks and safes. I had a 86 year master machinist with a complete shop as my teacher. They worked on guns for several other gunsmiths who did not have a machine shop. I left and took on several other jobs and went through college and graduate school. The owner of the shop liked me and I always had access to their shop. I chambered my own stuff and a few friends. About 15 years ago they sold the shop and the new owner was a parts changer not a machinist. I signed up at the local community college to take machining science. After the second semester the department head knew I was well ahead of all the other studends in skills and knowledge. He even had me teach the other instructors special skills I had in grinding cams and making helical gears with manual machines. After 6 semesters of CNC training I could operate any machine at the school better than the department head. I made gears, shafts and cut keyways repairing all the old iron. We Tig welded the casings and made new bearing holders for many of the old machines. I now have complete access to the community college shop. About ten years ago I started building my own shop and it became necessary to get my own FFLs. So I know Jackies and others delimas. I have been there and got that T shirt. Jackie is an asst to all of us and I look forward to each and every one of his post. I just don't want him to take up where Carbine Williams left off.

Many people complain about the difficulty in getting your FFL. Beleive me it is not that hard. Your biggest hurdles may be local government, ie: zoning. Local law enforcement will welcome you as long as you don't have a criminal record. You will be required to keep records and follow both federal and state laws. Your local BATF complience agent will walk you through these issues.

It has been very rewarding and sometimes very challenging to do gunsmith work. I really don't like calling myself a gunsmith. The government makes me do that. I don't do general gunsmithing. I specialize in centerfire bolt action rifles. I think of my self as still being a hobbiest gunsmith/machinist. I make a small amout of money that I have tried to put back into capital improvements and tooling. It takes a very short time to have invested a quarter million dollars into machinery and tooling. Most customers have no idea of the expense in just opening your doors for business.

Nat Lambeth
 
blagg said:
I wish the ATF was on the same page everywhere. . The upside is he stated it was not a problem to issue a FFL to someone in that instance. .
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just dont you now. they-batf agents-can give you 30 answers and none of them count in court. the laws are so complex now even the agencies dont have full understanding. how do i know this? in the irs we are not responsible either for explaining the law. we just enforce it, we are not the lawyers for the agency, just like the batf agents are not the lawyers for that agency.
no problem getting an ffl you say? try it. i have a good friend who has a machine shop and has been trying to get an ffl for almost 4 years now. his latest dilemma-he doesnt have a paved driveway to his shop.
 
Part of the confounding problems here regarding all the aforementioned areas are summed up in 2 words "Excise Taxes". The unbelievable expansion recently of this area is mind boggling. It affects anything to do with any type of sporting goods, new, repair, or modification. Many other areas also. The conflicts and misinformation being spewed forth from those departments charged with enactment & enforcement.................... you all get the ghist.
 
jackie schmidt said:
The truth be known, there are shooters scattered all over the USA who probably have a lathe and some other equipment, and on occasion perform work for friends. It never dawns on anybody that you might be breaking the law. In fact, in years past, the law might have just looked the other way.

But things are diffErent now. The new Administration just might decide to make an example of all of these "criminals".

The root of most of the problem is there seems to be a pretty big shortage of accuracy minded Gunsmiths. Personally, if I did not do my own work, I probably would not even be involved in Benchrest. The thought of waiting 3months+ for anything seems ridiculous to me, but if there are not enough Gunsmiths to serve a market, then that is what you have. I have never met a Gunsmith who said he was less than two months behind

Add to that just the hassles involved in shipping parts, or even ending up with the correct parts.

This is probably why more and more Benchrest Shooters end up getting their own lathe and other equipment, and become self contained. I just hope we never see the day when the Federal Government says you cannot even work on your own stuff without an FFL.......jackie
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I was told by the ATF 4 years ago that i didn't need an FFL if somebody brought me the parts to put together a rifle,but the person must bring the parts to me ,all i'm doing is assembling the rifle.
 
BATFIII.jpg


I find her expression to be hysterical:D

Our good friend Nat shed much needed sobering light on this subject and this is a good thing I think. It puts things back into perspective. The gist guys is we can litigate this for a hundred pages and never come to a conclusion beyond these two things:

It used to be much simpler to navigate in this trade.

There's not much optimism that its going to get better.

So, the best you can do is try to play the game. Becoming a martyr in America has never held the captive audience that it does in the Middle East so locking horns with an entity like the BATF will most likely end with a conviction and a serious yeast infection for the rest of your life. (So much for the chair beside Allah, all those virgins, and paradise) The peace of mind that comes with having that piece of paper is money well spent IMO. To put it back into perspective a bit, I'd bet there's a fair share of us in this audience that have spent as much or more on a nice dinner with a girlfriend/wife than the cost of an FFL.

I've worked as a gunmaker for 8 years and for the US Dept of State for the last 2.5 here in Iraq. My experiences here have involved a pretty broad variety of agencies and there is one common denominator with all of them; Feds are some squishy people. They will mold themselves into what ever the present situation dictates. So don't fool yourself into thinking you have a friend.

Not one of them will ever risk a red stain on their career.

My personal opinion is I think it should be harder to buy a pack of cigarettes than it is to purchase a gun. Having to be Federally licensed to work on them is just that much more absurd. I base this on the fact that the laws are so redundant these days. If I sell a gun to a felon, I'm already in trouble. So what does the license really do? What's the difference between life in prison and getting a 140 year sentence?

But my personal thoughts don't really matter. That's reality. It again comes full circle to deciding whether or not I want to be that martyr.

No thanks.

Good luck.

Chad Dixon
 
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As a rule, a good gunsmith does not get rich...at least not money-wise. Its like a true sportsman's claim.." its for the love of the game..."Good shooting!
 
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