Gun Laws and Doing Barrel Work.

The whole point of this thread should be if you are doing work for friends, don't post it on the internet and tell them to keep their mouth shut about it also. I think it is great that friends help each other this way, I have received such help myself. I think most everyone would agree that it should be legal for friends to help each other but don't post it on the internet where anyone can see it, ATF included. These are not pleasant people to deal with if they percieve you to be in the wrong, you are guilty untill you can prove otherwise at great exspense to you. Steve
 
I enjoy doing stock and bedding work and at one time thought about expanding this to a legitimate part time business. I contacted the BATF about obtaining an FFL for this type of work since I would be in possession of a customers action.

The BATF representative I spoke with in their Minneapolis office was very friendly and helpful. He even called me back after clarifying one area he wasn't quite sure on. He mentioned several times that their focus was not to harrass a hobbiest doing an occasional favor or small job for some pals.

He thought it was pretty ironic that a hobbiest can build his own action but is technically in violation if he has possession of a serialized non-functional bare reciever that had been properly processed through the paperwork channels. :D

Like a lot of things..common sense and intention. :) -Al
 
Al Nyhus said:
I enjoy doing stock and bedding work and at one time thought about expanding this to a legitimate part time business. I contacted the BATF about obtaining an FFL for this type of work since I would be in possession of a customers action.

The BATF representative I spoke with in their Minneapolis office was very friendly and helpful. He even called me back after clarifying one area he wasn't quite sure on. He mentioned several times that their focus was not to harrass a hobbiest doing an occasional favor or small job for some pals.

He thought it was pretty ironic that a hobbiest can build his own action but is technically in violation if he has possession of a serialized non-functional bare reciever that had been properly processed through the paperwork channels. :D

Like a lot of things..common sense and intention. :) -Al
Click to expand...


Al,

I have alot of LEO buddies from local to Fed to military....one of my good hunting buds was from ATF but took a transfer & hopes to get back as his wife has family here. He helped me get going and everyone at the local office down here was super nice and helpful.

Most LEO doing the leg work are like us, enjoy the outdoors and shooting and are patriotic family folks. They want the bad guys (rotten eggs) off the streets so us good guys can enjoy the freedoms we have.

Had many a conversation around campfires & bbq's and it makes me feel good we have them backing us up. Maybe it's just a TX deal and of course they are friends, but I know who has my back & comforting to know it comes from so many branches.

pf
<><
 
A little off the subject, but right on the subject..

Making it very clear I do not work for the BATF or in the federal jurisdiction of Houston Texas. My commentnts do not reflect the opinions of my employer, and are purely my own comments. This is going to make some of you mad and I am sure you will respond.

I have been a Special Agent for 28 years, not for the BATF. I have just a little and dangerous knowledge of the law and how it is enforced. If you read the post made by many of you from the point of view of an BATF Agent or an Assistant United Stated Attorney, you would think the posters are the most ignornant people in this country. I say this because of what has already been posted. Some post have been right on and others not so.

We assume every one here in the USA is inocent until proven guilty. During the investigative phase of a criminal case facts are gathered. We are looking for evidence of a crime, we are establishing "probable cause". Pobable cause is a state of facts the would lead a reasonable person to beleive that a crime has occured. It can be used in obtaing a search warrant, an arrest warrant and and is what a Grand Jury is doing in issuing an indictment.

Evidence is gathered by law enforcement it comes from many sources, common knowledge, informants, experts, witnesses, plane view, searches, and yes the suspect own mouth. The defendent is not required to testify against him or herself by constitutional guarantee. How ever we in a America have big mouths and love to run them. There is what is called "spontaneous utterance", this is a statement given by a suspect before and/or after arrest that is unsolicited by law enforcement. A law enforcement officer can ask you anything pre arrest and pre detention. This is a very good tool for law enforcement and is used every day with suspects who try to be jail house lawyers. This web site is a public forum in the eyes of the government and anything posted is open for the government to use as they see fit. I will tell you that the BATF and many other law enforcement agencies monitor the world wide web. These agencies share with each other their findings.

In my opinion as a 34 year veteran of law enforcement enough has been said on this site over the last few months to establish probable cause of several crimes having been committed. The federal law of "conspiricy" has very simple elements "the meeting of two minds to plan and/or carry out a crime".

I personally don't think Jackie or anyone else on this forum has criminal intent. But ignorance of the law is no excuse in the eyes of the law. Neseika Chad said it very well. this subject is very important and has dire consequences.

Unless we are attorneys, we should not be trying to interpret the law for someone other than ourselves. Yes, you can be charged with practicing law without a license in most states. Thought you needed some comic releif, no puns intended.

Jackie my advise to you and others is to get informed, by reading the Federal and State gun laws and regulations. If you have questions contact the BATF they have a great web site and they will give you their opinions both verbally and in writing. You might even go further to contact the US Attorneys office in your jurisdiction and get their opinion of what the BATF has provided you with since they are the ultiment law or policy enforcer.

I am getting ready to step into it big time....

For those who are not attorneys, and or are offering their opinions without factual basis and those who blatenly are thumbing their nose to our legal system and government you are doing a disservice to the other readers and making yourself look like a fool. You may find yourself in a judicial setting trying to explain yourself. These kind comment are what are call "aggrevating factors" and just what law enforcement officers, and prosecutors love to have to present to a jury. They show "intent" and that makes or breaks many cases.

Saying that I will end with a quote I read on a railroad bridge 40 years ago.

"Fools names and fools faces are found in many public places".

Jackie, I hope you get informed and continue with many years of successful shooting and gunsmithing. You are a wealth of knowledge and experience. We all listen and look when you post. I would suggest if you do any gunwork for others that you follow the law. If you don't you may and will have a visit from the BATF.

Nat Lambeth
 
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Some good points

Especially the one about the WWW. In my opinion, issues like this should never be discussed in public by anyone. There are two types of law to consider, Criminal and Civil. Both have been broached here and each has it's own peculiarities. Years ago I attended a seminar on Liability as part of a Profesional Designation and the presenter kept refering to the "12 good Idiots, tried and true". IMHO that is where the problem lies as far as civil law is concerned.

Let sleeping dogs be, If the are woken and bark, the "12 Idiots" may hear them and become interested in what they are barking at. ;)
 
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Nat

As I said, I will no longer do any type of Gun Work for anybody. The few I have done is public knowledge, now that I know that there is culpability involved, I will cease. I made the mistake in looking at this sort of thing as just another routine machine job. But, when Guns are involved, there is nothing "routine" about anything.

As I said before, the reason I was doing this because of the difficulties fellow shooters were having getting work done. I enjoy it, friends come over, you have a good BS session while performing a needed service.

There is another side to this as well. Gunsmiths who DO have an FFL possibly feel offended by all of the hobbyist, who, in a sense, are affecting their livelyhood. They have a very good argument. As I have said many times, I am not a Gunsmith. I guess I need to look in the mirror and remind myself of that ever so often.

But, when a shooter inquires about having an barrel installed, and he keeps hearing the same story, "I am 3 months behind", then that opens the door for activities such as what we are discussing.

I guess we need more Gunsmiths.........jackie
 
jackie schmidt said:
As I said, I will no longer do any type of Gun Work for anybody. The few I have done is public knowledge, now that I know that there is culpability involved, I will cease. I made the mistake in looking at this sort of thing as just another routine machine job. But, when Guns are involved, there is nothing "routine" about anything.

As I said before, the reason I was doing this because of the difficulties fellow shooters were having getting work done. I enjoy it, friends come over, you have a good BS session while performing a needed service.

There is another side to this as well. Gunsmiths who DO have an FFL possibly feel offended by all of the hobbyist, who, in a sense, are affecting their livelyhood. They have a very good argument. As I have said many times, I am not a Gunsmith. I guess I need to look in the mirror and remind myself of that ever so often.

But, when a shooter inquires about having an barrel installed, and he keeps hearing the same story, "I am 3 months behind", then that opens the door for activities such as what we are discussing.

I guess we need more Gunsmiths.........jackie
Click to expand...

Jackie,

Anyone who can do what you do is a gunsmith in my eyes (maybe a machinest for a better term since you do not have the lic, but still a gunsmith of sorts)

I think you owe it to yourself to move forward because as you stated, you 'enjoy' it. That alone should be your motivator.....pick and chose your customers you want to help. I think you will find it rewarding & then there will no complaints from the others who get offended.







P.S....excellent post nat.


pf
<><
 
Jackie dont give up on what you may enjoy doing as a hobby. Give ATF a call, they are very easy to deal with, so I've found so far. The cost is not much 200 first 3 years then 90 every 3 to renew. From what the Agent told me is no store front is required and they issue in my area for hobbiest all the time! In my area, a city business liscence is 35 bucks a year. I have not got to the point if that is needed yet as a hobby. Part of the process is to let local Law Enforcment know that you have FFL. The City may require a business liscence. That could be a determining factor for me as I dont want a business, just a hobby for my machine tools. I can foresee someday guys like us building benchrest compound bows! A lot less trouble involved. :rolleyes:
 
Jackie,

After all of this has been exposed to the net, it might not be a bad idea to check in to acquiring the proper permits.

This just blows my mind. Here is a (small) group of honest, hard working folks who like to help others out, and we are now possible criminals?

land of the free, home of the brave??? The brave I understand, the free part is getting very cloudy. Sad

Jackie, keep the spirit, many of us who will never meet you have learned a tremendous amount of knowledge from this forum and your experiences!

Thanks you!!

Tony
 
Jackie becoming a gunsmith...

Jackie:

I have more work than I can do and would love for you to become a licensed gunsmith. I will be the first to send you customers. It would be a win win situation for everyone but you Jackie. You would get so busy you could not shoot yourself. I work about 50 hours a week for the government and another 40-50 for my gunsmithing business.

Nat
 
Maybe I am wrong but I believe you have to be in the business of gunsmithing before needing a ffl.
If you don't charge for the service I don't believe the rules apply to you. You may charge for parts but you cannot make a profit from the work. Now liability issues may still apply. Also I hear comments about the customer has to be there when you work on the gun or that it can't be left over night, I don't know of any rule in the GCA or in the atf rules that states that, if someone can show me that part I would appreciate it. You would have to follow the rules about shipping a firearm also.
 
I agree with Nat, go through the proper channels, if your charging for the work, it is a for profit buisness. This requires an ffl.

I officialy opened my buisness one year ago. As an LLC, personal assets are protected. Buisness assets can be payments in a court judjment against your company. Remember every one can be sued for anything, but the suer must prove negligence in a court of law. This is expensive and almost frivolus when the assets of the LLC are going to be less than the legal fees.

Most gun guys are good hearted people, and most gun accidents are the source of brain farts by the fellow driving the rifle or reloading press. The only judgements against a custom riflesmith that was successful that I know of was a quality issue with the barrel steel, thus the chain of defendents gets quite long. The other issue was it was a super light wieght barrel contour.

Jackie, I suggest you start an LLC $250 get an FFL $200 and enjoy your fellowship with friends and customers. You can charge a fair price and feel good about helping fellow shooters.

As Nat said, you will get busy and finding time to shoot your own rifles gets a little more difficult every month. I'm still trying to deal with this development.

Jim See
 
I will say that it is a fact that you cannot get a FFL if you are not planning on doing the work for profit, if you don't believe me get an FFL application or contact the BATF.
So assuming doing free barrel work without a FFL is not allowed by the BATF that makes doing any free barrel work a Catch 22, it can't be done no way for free for someone else whether you have a FFL or not.

That is my reasoning for my earlier post that I believe that it is ok to do the work without a FFL as long as you don't charge.

By the way I have my own lathe but have never done any gun work for anyone else, nor have I sold any of my guns that I have done work on so I believe I am ok with the ATF.:)
I have had a few people ask though which is why I am interested in this thread.

James
 
Jim S said:
I agree with Nat, go through the proper channels, if your charging for the work, it is a for profit buisness. This requires an ffl.

I officialy opened my buisness one year ago. As an LLC, personal assets are protected. Buisness assets can be payments in a court judjment against your company. Remember every one can be sued for anything, but the suer must prove negligence in a court of law. This is expensive and almost frivolus when the assets of the LLC are going to be less than the legal fees.

Most gun guys are good hearted people, and most gun accidents are the source of brain farts by the fellow driving the rifle or reloading press. The only judgements against a custom riflesmith that was successful that I know of was a quality issue with the barrel steel, thus the chain of defendents gets quite long. The other issue was it was a super light wieght barrel contour.

Jackie, I suggest you start an LLC $250 get an FFL $200 and enjoy your fellowship with friends and customers. You can charge a fair price and feel good about helping fellow shooters.

As Nat said, you will get busy and finding time to shoot your own rifles gets a little more difficult every month. I'm still trying to deal with this development.

Jim See
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Jim,

What about business hours. For people that have other jobs, on shiftwork, rotating schedules etc. How could they establish business hours for their FFL?

Ben
 
Is an FFL needed? NO

http://permanent.access.gpo.gov/lps41631/2005/p53004.pdf A FFL is needed IF you engage in the business for livelihood and Profit. Read page 6 (11) A & B. Then go to Page 7 (21) D A person is allowed to fit barrels for friends as a hobby.
(11) The term "dealer" means (A)
any person engaged in the business of
selling firearms at wholesale or retail,(B) any person engaged in the business
of repairing firearms or of making or fitting
special barrels, stocks, or trigger
mechanisms to firearms, or (C) any
person who is a pawnbroker. The term
"licensed dealer" means any dealer
who is licensed under the provisions of
this chapter
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(21) The term "engaged in the business"
means—(D) as applied to a dealer in firearms,
as defined in section
921(a)(11)(B), a person who devotes
time, attention, and labor to engaging
in such activity as a regular course of
trade or business with the principal
objective of livelihood and profit, but
such term shall not include a personwho makes occasional repairs of firearms,
or who occasionally fits special
barrels, stocks, or trigger mechanisms
to firearms;
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You do not have to keep records for your hobby of helping friends. IMO they can leave a firearm there if the wish under Federal Laws. You ok with the gov. , i would worry more about a gun blowup and lawyers. hope this help. PS I held an FFL from 1976 till 1994. At one time you needed an FFL if it was a hobby. Now you must be in business for profit to require a FFL.
 
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taxes

the money is the thing good old uncle sam wants his share of the money. Do you think the batf gives a damn that I bed a stock or tune a trigger for my buddy they just want the money. We have the right to own firearms to protect ower selfs from the gov.
 
Nat

I for one , would like to commend you for expressing you views,experience,expertise. It takes more than a little fortitude.
No I ain't mad. On the Contrary.

Like my dad used to say; "The more you know, the more you can forget and still know something."

Mahalo, Les
 
243winxb said:
http://permanent.access.gpo.gov/lps41631/2005/p53004.pdf A FFL is needed IF you engage in the business for livelihood and Profit. Read page 6 (11) A & B. Then go to Page 7 (21) D A person is allowed to fit barrels for friends as a hobby.

Is an FFL needed? NO


Quote:
(21) The term "engaged in the business"
means—(D) as applied to a dealer in firearms,
as defined in section
921(a)(11)(B), a person who devotes
time, attention, and labor to engaging
in such activity as a regular course of
trade or business with the principal
objective of livelihood and profit, but
such term shall not include a personwho makes occasional repairs of firearms,
or who occasionally fits special
barrels, stocks, or trigger mechanisms
to firearms.
Click to expand...

So Jackie, it would seem that you/we can continue to do our hobby gunsmithing, and that most the previous advice was full of hoowee...........................Don
 
Bnhpr said:
Jim,

What about business hours. For people that have other jobs, on shiftwork, rotating schedules etc. How could they establish business hours for their FFL?

Ben
Click to expand...

Ben, If someone worked a full time swing shift setting hours would be near impossible. Lets say you worked 7am-3pm, you could set your hours from 4pm to 5:30pm Tuesday thru Friday, and that would satisfy them.

My hours are 1:00pm to 4:30pm Tues.-Fri. I'm in the shop from 8-5 M-F. but only "open" the doors for said hours. Part of the hours scheduale is so your ATF agent knows when it is apropriate to stop by. Soon my "open hours" will be cut to 2 afternoons per week. I'm getting busier with the rifle building and thats where I'll devote my time.

Jim See
 
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