K
Kathy
Guest
Friend Dennis Sorensen
Friend Dennis:
On your post #62 you asked a very good question......I'm sorry, but I have no idea how to pull the quote here......I can only see the last page....
You asked how much material could be removed from a barrel's muzzle before problems develop with bore distortion?
On a new blank, when I turn my targets, if I have to remove more than .005" of material, I then cut the entire length of the barrel and re-lap.....
Of course more could be removed for a large diameter barrel before problems develop.....
I work with barrels .850" to .900" diameter.... I follow the above rule with these size barrels.....
On a barrel .*850" in diameter, no matter how the bore was rifled, I can tell the distortion, by slugging, when .025" total has been removed...so can you, or anyone....
Somewhere between my .005" removal, which I'm comfortable doing, and, the .025" which I know will distort the bore, is the no-man's land I ain't sure of.......
So Dennis, I don't take no chances.....
Something else....someone put a drawing of fitting a glued muzzle device to a tapered barrel....I'm sorry but his name skipps my mind and if I stop to look back I'll lose this so far....but whoever that feller is, pretty darn neat!
HIs name I think has some numbers in it...? Pretty darn neat idea.....
Friend Dennis......RvA has a neat idea to keep from threading muzzles...he's working as fast as he can to prove his idea and make it public.....
I would never, under any circumstances, thread the muzzle of a fine target barrel........
Great question Dennis,,,your friend, Bill Calfee
Friend Dennis:
On your post #62 you asked a very good question......I'm sorry, but I have no idea how to pull the quote here......I can only see the last page....
You asked how much material could be removed from a barrel's muzzle before problems develop with bore distortion?
On a new blank, when I turn my targets, if I have to remove more than .005" of material, I then cut the entire length of the barrel and re-lap.....
Of course more could be removed for a large diameter barrel before problems develop.....
I work with barrels .850" to .900" diameter.... I follow the above rule with these size barrels.....
On a barrel .*850" in diameter, no matter how the bore was rifled, I can tell the distortion, by slugging, when .025" total has been removed...so can you, or anyone....
Somewhere between my .005" removal, which I'm comfortable doing, and, the .025" which I know will distort the bore, is the no-man's land I ain't sure of.......
So Dennis, I don't take no chances.....
Something else....someone put a drawing of fitting a glued muzzle device to a tapered barrel....I'm sorry but his name skipps my mind and if I stop to look back I'll lose this so far....but whoever that feller is, pretty darn neat!
HIs name I think has some numbers in it...? Pretty darn neat idea.....
Friend Dennis......RvA has a neat idea to keep from threading muzzles...he's working as fast as he can to prove his idea and make it public.....
I would never, under any circumstances, thread the muzzle of a fine target barrel........
Great question Dennis,,,your friend, Bill Calfee
B
BJS6
Guest
This one Bill ?
Seems like a pretty logical way to approach a glued on tuner. Just need the two areas of contact to just nudge up against the barrel when the smallest shoulder bumps the muzzle face.
Plenty of glue bump it home with your palm and then clean the surplus epoxy from the barrel and inside the tube and the muzzle face.
You could even lap the shoulders to a perfect fit to the barrel or use internal grooves and "O" rings as locators to make fitting to different barrel diameters and tapers easier.
Like I said, no design fees apply, just call it he "Bryce device" and that'll be all the credit I need !!!
Bryce
Seems like a pretty logical way to approach a glued on tuner. Just need the two areas of contact to just nudge up against the barrel when the smallest shoulder bumps the muzzle face.
Plenty of glue bump it home with your palm and then clean the surplus epoxy from the barrel and inside the tube and the muzzle face.
You could even lap the shoulders to a perfect fit to the barrel or use internal grooves and "O" rings as locators to make fitting to different barrel diameters and tapers easier.
Like I said, no design fees apply, just call it he "Bryce device" and that'll be all the credit I need !!!
Bryce
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V
Vibe
Guest
If I use the numbers across the top of the keyboard, I get the same result -nothin. I have to use the number keypad to the right.
V
Vibe
Guest
Bill. This sounds like you lapped before you "contoured". I would wonder why? Probably a real good reason, I just don't know what it is.
Have you noticed a difference in the degree of distortion with lighter cuts vs heavier cuts? Taking 0.025" off in 5or 6 passes as opposed to 2?
What about a 0.005" deep "thread" just to rough up the OD for the glue to bite to?
D
Dennis Sorensen
Guest
90°
Using the right side number keys it works! ... I typed 90 and then held Alt down and typed 248 and when I released Alt, the ° appeared...
246 will give you ÷ and 251 is √
A lot off topic though...
K
Kathy
Guest
Friend Vibe
Friend Vibe:
Your frist question on your post right before Dennis's....
The barrels I use are lapped "after" profiling....always....
But, when I start with a blank, I carefully evaluate it by slugging, feeling and measuring.......to determine where the crown and chamber go.....
Sometimes when the ends of a blank are removed, the bore is off center somewhat....I clean both ends of the blank up with targets.......these targets are on center with the bore of course...
If I have to clean over .005", I then profile the entire barrel, then re-lap.
I can live with .005" and not be scared....
A barrel is NEVER lapped, then profiled....never, that is if one expects accuracy..
Your question about heavy or light cuts causing more or less bore distortion..... makes no difference...
A .005" thread for glue would be ok, but is it really needed?.....I think good glue would keep a muzzle device in place if the barrel was chemically clean on the outside before gluing......
Your friend, Bill Calfee
Friend Vibe:
Your frist question on your post right before Dennis's....
The barrels I use are lapped "after" profiling....always....
But, when I start with a blank, I carefully evaluate it by slugging, feeling and measuring.......to determine where the crown and chamber go.....
Sometimes when the ends of a blank are removed, the bore is off center somewhat....I clean both ends of the blank up with targets.......these targets are on center with the bore of course...
If I have to clean over .005", I then profile the entire barrel, then re-lap.
I can live with .005" and not be scared....
A barrel is NEVER lapped, then profiled....never, that is if one expects accuracy..
Your question about heavy or light cuts causing more or less bore distortion..... makes no difference...
A .005" thread for glue would be ok, but is it really needed?.....I think good glue would keep a muzzle device in place if the barrel was chemically clean on the outside before gluing......
Your friend, Bill Calfee
R
Ron Suttle
Guest
Mr. Calfee,
Why not back bore a barrel past the threads?
I understand that Anschutz rimfire barrels have a choke at the muzzle to improve accuracy. They also offer a threaded barrel for suppressors which are popular in Europe. I understand, although I don’t know for sure, that these threaded barrels are back bored, because the threading distorts the barrel (the very reason you state), and that the choke is put in the bore just behind the threading so as not to loose accuracy. Can you comment on that?
Why not back bore a barrel past the threads?
I understand that Anschutz rimfire barrels have a choke at the muzzle to improve accuracy. They also offer a threaded barrel for suppressors which are popular in Europe. I understand, although I don’t know for sure, that these threaded barrels are back bored, because the threading distorts the barrel (the very reason you state), and that the choke is put in the bore just behind the threading so as not to loose accuracy. Can you comment on that?
Pete Wass
Well-known member
I have a question
Looking at the diagram of the barrel device and the area for glue, how does one get exactly the right amount of glue so that one does not have it creep out on to the muzzle? Are there expansion holes for excess glue to ooze from? Are there holes to pump the glue in so that one does not mess up the crown?
perhaps the drawing is an over-simplification of the device but I can't see the one pictured working well.
This one Bill ?
Seems like a pretty logical way to approach a glued on tuner. Just need the two areas of contact to just nudge up against the barrel when the smallest shoulder bumps the muzzle face.
Plenty of glue bump it home with your palm and then clean the surplus epoxy from the barrel and inside the tube and the muzzle face.
You could even lap the shoulders to a perfect fit to the barrel or use internal grooves and "O" rings as locators to make fitting to different barrel diameters and tapers easier.
Like I said, no design fees apply, just call it he "Bryce device" and that'll be all the credit I need !!!
Bryce
Looking at the diagram of the barrel device and the area for glue, how does one get exactly the right amount of glue so that one does not have it creep out on to the muzzle? Are there expansion holes for excess glue to ooze from? Are there holes to pump the glue in so that one does not mess up the crown?
perhaps the drawing is an over-simplification of the device but I can't see the one pictured working well.
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V
Vibe
Guest
Calculating the moment is that easy. Determining if it is "just" the moment that is effective is not. That would require a bit of testing.
But to calculate the moment of different size/material weights take the mass of each weight and (assuming that each is symmetrical - uniformly tubular, or close to it) measure from the muzzle/crown to the midpoint of the weight (the Center of Gravity of that weight). Multiply the mass by the distance and that will give you the moment for that weight.
Repeat for each weight mounted, and add all of the results together. This will give the total Moment hanging in front of the muzzle.
It gets a bit more involved if the mass is more "spread out" rather than concentrated at one point. The math for the moment is the same, but the effect on the vibrations probably will not be.
As for the testing part. Once you have found a tuner weight that works you can determine the moment that achieved that, and divide the moment by the total mass and that will tell you the distance from the muzzle to the Centroid of your various weights. Cut a single weight of this mass and place it that same distance in front of the muzzle. This should reproduce the effect.
Alternately, you should be able to take a lighter weight (within reason), divide the Moment calculated from the tuner setup by the mass of the smaller weight and this should tell you where to mount the smaller weight to achieve the same effect (provided it really is predominantly linked to overhung moment). I suspect that it will be real close.
Oz * inches = Oz-inches
4 Oz * 2 inches = 8 Oz-Inches=2 Oz * 4 Inches.
I hope I answered what you were asking.
K
Kathy
Guest
My friends
My friends:
Been testing the forth barrel on SPEC 4, with the new RvA solid muzzle device, (tuner).....
My head is swimming with things I want to say....
Real quick: Shot some 1081 velocity and some 1050 velocity.....
Each velocity shot awesome, but, with with 4 ounces different weight.......?????????
I scratched my head......what was wrong?
My dear friends, what was wrong was this: I had not stopped the muzzle of this barrel..........
I went back, added and substracted weight, till I had the vertical killed, using both velocities.......
Here's where I'm at now.....Both velocities have no vertical....the weight I wound up with, is kinda in between my two first attempts...
My dear friends: If you feel you have to change your muzzle device, (tuner) for different velocity ammo, or, for different shooting conditions, YOU AIN'T GOT YOUR MUZZLE STOPPED!
My friends, I'm just a dumb old feller........a muzzle device, (tuner) is the greatest addition to accuracy in my, or your, lifetime.......
A muzzle device, (tuner) "tunes" the barrel.........it does not tune either shooting conditions or differences in velocity.....I'm sorry if that offends some folks.
Your friend, Bill Calfee
My friends:
Been testing the forth barrel on SPEC 4, with the new RvA solid muzzle device, (tuner).....
My head is swimming with things I want to say....
Real quick: Shot some 1081 velocity and some 1050 velocity.....
Each velocity shot awesome, but, with with 4 ounces different weight.......?????????
I scratched my head......what was wrong?
My dear friends, what was wrong was this: I had not stopped the muzzle of this barrel..........
I went back, added and substracted weight, till I had the vertical killed, using both velocities.......
Here's where I'm at now.....Both velocities have no vertical....the weight I wound up with, is kinda in between my two first attempts...
My dear friends: If you feel you have to change your muzzle device, (tuner) for different velocity ammo, or, for different shooting conditions, YOU AIN'T GOT YOUR MUZZLE STOPPED!
My friends, I'm just a dumb old feller........a muzzle device, (tuner) is the greatest addition to accuracy in my, or your, lifetime.......
A muzzle device, (tuner) "tunes" the barrel.........it does not tune either shooting conditions or differences in velocity.....I'm sorry if that offends some folks.
Your friend, Bill Calfee
T
tim in tx
Guest
bill
no it doesnt offend anyone,but why did you have to change the weight after you determined what the proper weight would be?was the permanent weight a different shape or different length? tim in tx
no it doesnt offend anyone,but why did you have to change the weight after you determined what the proper weight would be?was the permanent weight a different shape or different length? tim in tx
V
Vibe
Guest
And yet many people have set theirs up to do just exactly that (Tune out differences in velocity), and those will most likely outshoot those that don't.
but that's just my opinion.
K
Kathy
Guest
Friend Lynn
Friend Lynn:
I quote from you my friend:
" It sounds like you stopped each load seperately? Would it not be better to shoot each load while adjusting the weights rather than one at a time?
Lynn "
My dear friend Lynn......you have asked the question that is at the curx of this whole muzzle Device, (tuner) thing.
You asked: If you, Bill Calfee, got both velocities shooting, with two different muzzle device weights, why not just tune for each velocity and be done with it..
Lynn: You said something a while back that's the most accurate definition of what Bill Calfee is about......you said, something like: One can give someone a fish, and they will not be hungry, for a day.....or....one can teach them how to "fish", and they will be set for life....
Lynn, I don't want to give someone a fish to help them for a day....I want to give them information that will last them a lifetime.....
I want to answer you awesome question....but, this thread is getting to be one of them big old nasty threads that seem to happen every time I post.....I don't like them...I'm sorry.....
Wouldn't it be better if I start another thread...and answered your awesome qusetion?
Lynn......how can a guy get two velocities of ammo to shoot....by adjusting weights on his muzzle device, (tuner), by using 4 ounces different weight, then, go to some other combination of weights on the device, (tuner) ,and, have both velocities shooting killer, no vertical? It simply can't happen!
But Lynn, yes it can happen.....
Let's start another thread, what do you say?
Your friend, Bill Calfee
Friend Lynn:
I quote from you my friend:
" It sounds like you stopped each load seperately? Would it not be better to shoot each load while adjusting the weights rather than one at a time?
Lynn "
My dear friend Lynn......you have asked the question that is at the curx of this whole muzzle Device, (tuner) thing.
You asked: If you, Bill Calfee, got both velocities shooting, with two different muzzle device weights, why not just tune for each velocity and be done with it..
Lynn: You said something a while back that's the most accurate definition of what Bill Calfee is about......you said, something like: One can give someone a fish, and they will not be hungry, for a day.....or....one can teach them how to "fish", and they will be set for life....
Lynn, I don't want to give someone a fish to help them for a day....I want to give them information that will last them a lifetime.....
I want to answer you awesome question....but, this thread is getting to be one of them big old nasty threads that seem to happen every time I post.....I don't like them...I'm sorry.....
Wouldn't it be better if I start another thread...and answered your awesome qusetion?
Lynn......how can a guy get two velocities of ammo to shoot....by adjusting weights on his muzzle device, (tuner), by using 4 ounces different weight, then, go to some other combination of weights on the device, (tuner) ,and, have both velocities shooting killer, no vertical? It simply can't happen!
But Lynn, yes it can happen.....
Let's start another thread, what do you say?
Your friend, Bill Calfee
J
jdjframes
Guest
This business of threading a barrel for a tuner strikes me as a simple thing.
Get your local, friendly barrel maker to (1) drill a blank, contour it & thread it for the length you need plus a bit for trim, (2) ream said barrel & lap it, (3) cut rifle & lap again, (4) cut to length & crown. Results: a barrel as uniform from end to end as humanly possible, threaded for a tuner and with no bore distortation. Much like the old timers did to make sure the false muzzle rifling lined up perfectly with the rest of the bore in the beautiful old, and may I say deadly accurate, muzzle loading target rifles of yesteryear.
Your local, friendly barrel maker may require an extra ration of $$ to do this, but what is a little additional funding between friends when in pursuit of perfection?
Whatever!
Get your local, friendly barrel maker to (1) drill a blank, contour it & thread it for the length you need plus a bit for trim, (2) ream said barrel & lap it, (3) cut rifle & lap again, (4) cut to length & crown. Results: a barrel as uniform from end to end as humanly possible, threaded for a tuner and with no bore distortation. Much like the old timers did to make sure the false muzzle rifling lined up perfectly with the rest of the bore in the beautiful old, and may I say deadly accurate, muzzle loading target rifles of yesteryear.
Your local, friendly barrel maker may require an extra ration of $$ to do this, but what is a little additional funding between friends when in pursuit of perfection?
Whatever!
Jim Borden
New member
Guess the threaded muzzle on my LV 6 PPC with the Shade Tree tuner installed must have really gotten me on Saturday when I fired an 0.042 inch group with it at 100 yards--this was on a barrel that was a so-so performer prior to installing the tuner.
Of course--it is not the "whole pie" as it was not a 0.0000 group, but the components we have today are not capable of averaging 0.0000
Dusty and Paul--by the way I have air gaged a few barrels and have watched it done by others. I have witnessed on older barrels the change that you are referring to --but not on barrels made in last 5 to 6 years by the makers I use.
Jim
Of course--it is not the "whole pie" as it was not a 0.0000 group, but the components we have today are not capable of averaging 0.0000
Dusty and Paul--by the way I have air gaged a few barrels and have watched it done by others. I have witnessed on older barrels the change that you are referring to --but not on barrels made in last 5 to 6 years by the makers I use.
Jim
That’s a shame Jim, better luck next time…. Lol
IMO, the only thing uglier than a tuner is a tuner profile barrel they're screwed/glued/clamped to, put them on a savage action and you have the “whole pie”… But you just caught my full attention with this comment and I may end up milking my existing barrel for a few more months because of it.
If I’ve learned one thing in life, its to follow my gunsmiths advice!
Jim