First time at 1,000 yards ...

Cheechako said:
What else is there? 155?
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WINNER! WINNER! WINNER! :)
Yes, AMU is loading 155s for 1000 yard target work. (The M110 is chambered for 7.62 NATO.) Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if they were eventually loaded into combat ammo too.

Re: Sierra as a preferred supplier for the US Army. Ammo loaded with other bullets has delivered equal or better accuracy. However, obtaining quality bullets in quantity has always been of concern. IMO, that's a big reason why Sierra wins more than their fair share of military contracts.

Lapua's projectile for the M852 trials was the 170 grain FMJBT. (D46, I think?) Not as good as the Scenar brand projectiles, or the Sierra MatchKings (both HPBTs).
 
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Interesting history lesson ....

(See post #15 and 18 . . . . )

Anyone with 1,000 yd experience . . . . what do you recommend?

- Innovative
 
Larry

Many of us do have 1000 yard experience - me, Asa, tillroot, criver for examples that I know of. But on this particular Forum you're not going to find too many shooters who have used a 308, much less who use one now. You need to ask on the Forums that are not quite as Benchrest oriented. As far as moly vs. naked, we've been around that block so many times that it's hard to generate much enthusiasm to discuss it again. You might have to wait for the next generation of shooters.

I think "the history lesson" is valuable because it's how we learn about what works and what doesn't.

I'd suggest you get some 175 grain bullets (and maybe some 155s too), load them with whatever Varget you have and go out and shoot. As long as you get the desired velocity, the "hot" Varget should work just as well as any other. Beyond that, I don't know what better advice any of us could give.

Good Luck

Ray
 
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Cheechako .......

Thanks for the info. (That history lesson really was interesting.) Sierra just told me they "won't be running any more 175 SMKs for a while". It looks like I'm pretty much out of business at 1,000 yards with this rifle. My luck with Berger Bullets has not been good with this particular rifle.

- Innovative
 
Larry Willis said:
Sierra just told me they "won't be running any more 175 SMKs for a while".
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Larry,

That's because they're making 155s (the 2156s). These use the same jackets as the 175s. When filling a US military contract, manufacturers aren't allowed to make anything else until said contract is filled. (Shades of Rockwell International, B1Bs, and Space Shuttles come to mind...) Between October of last year and February/March of this year, Sierra was making 175s for Uncle. Now, they're focussing on their primary customers - US. There's a LOT of demand for 2156s right now.

Try the 2156s - you'll like them. :D

Re: Powders. With the 2156s, you might also try H4895, or even Benchmark. These are faster powders than Varget, but still work with the lighter bullets.
 
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308/1000 yards

Larry
I have shot over 80 pounds of Varget behind Sierra 155/175 SMK's out of a 308 at 1000 yards. We are lucky enough to have a Monday evening practice at 1000 yards at our local club, Oak Ridge Sportsman Association. If you can get 2700 fps out of your 175's you will be in good shape. Have a good "no wind" zero and have some fun.:D
 
First time at 1000 yds (Hooked)

I have been rationalizing for better than a year now that I can not shoot 1000 yds. I was helping with the 1K match and one of the best shooters asked me if I wanted to shoot the match. I accepted. The equipment was primo and I shot well. Beginners luck. They will not let me rationalize any more and I will have to build a 1K rifle. The whole thing should be very enjoyable. :D

Jeffrey Tooker
 
Jeffreytooker said:
I have been rationalizing for better than a year now that I can not shoot 1000 yds. I was helping with the 1K match and one of the best shooters asked me if I wanted to shoot the match. I accepted. The equipment was primo and I shot well. Beginners luck. They will not let me rationalize any more and I will have to build a 1K rifle. The whole thing should be very enjoyable. :D

Jeffrey Tooker
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You poor man, there's no stopping it now, looks like you are hooked.

Soon you will wonder why do have a 3 shot .75" group and a .2" 2 shot group but a 6" 5 shot group or wow that's a nice 2" 4 shot groop but I got a flyer that opened it up to 8". ARG!

Welcome to the frustration.
James
 
Great Information ...

As always, this site is a great source of information. The .308 Win. is definitely not my number one choice at 1,000 yards, (especially with the 22" barrel). I really enjoy shooting 600 yards, where my 308 does an awesome job, but I want to get started on the right foot at 1,000 yards. Thanks for all the information.

- Innovative
 
I shoot the 167 moly Lapua Scenars in one of my 308's after testing several bullets and I really like them. It is not a 1000 yard bench gun but I have shot it out to 1000 and the rounds looked stable on target. It is very accurate at 100 through 600 so I am a little forgiving of its group size at 1000. I am running 47.5 grains of VV N550. My rifle just likes them. Test it and shoot what works!
 
The wind conditions in Central Florida are usually almost dead calm early in the morning, and this .308 Win. shoots 2.5" (5 shot groups) at 600 yards. What would you expect from it at 1,000 yards? What size groups would you hope for?

- Innovative
 
1K 308 (Temporary)

Cheechako said:
Larry

I always hesitate to give my loads but I will tell you that Varget is one of the best for the 308 with heavy bullets at 1000 yards. It was the only powder I used. On another Forum just recently a shooter asked the same question and the responses were about 95% in favor of Varget. You'd have to do your own testing to see exactly how much you can use in your rifle but I'd bet you'll end up around 45 grains with 175 grain bullets.

Ray
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Well for the short term I need a 1K rifle to shoot, as it will be around four months untill I can get a proper (LRPV Savage 6 BR) together. That is what my budget can afford. We shoot unsanctioned matches. So I also am stuck with a 308 (12BVSS) for a while. I have Varget, Lapua brass and Fed 210M primers. The problem is bullets. With the shortage of components ordering 175 SMK's will take too long. I have some military 173 FMJBT bullets, .308". Will these bullets stay super sonic at 1K? I know the rifle will not be competitive. It will however let me shoot untill I can build the new rifle. :)

Jeffrey Tooker
 
Jeffery

The 173 grain FMJ military bullet was the designated match bullet from 1925 until 1981. So it is certainly capable of 1000 yard performance. Whether or not it would be competitive is entirely up to you. Velocities in the Match loadings ranged from 2640 fps in the '06 to 2550 fps in the 7.62x51. You should be able to duplicate or even exceed those velocities.

There is always the new 155 grain SMK. I don't know what velocities the shooters are finding best, but that information should not be hard to get.

And don't put all your eggs in the "supersonic" basket. While it's certainly great if your loads are still super at 1000 yards, it's not absolutely necessary with some bullets.

Ray
 
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Working Up

Cheechako said:
Jeffery

The 173 grain FMJ military bullet was the designated match bullet from 1925 until 1981. So it is certainly capable of 1000 yard performance. Whether or not it would be competitive is entirely up to you. Velocities in the Match loadings ranged from 2640 fps in the '06 to 2550 fps in the 7.62x51. You should be able to duplicate or even exceed those velocities.

There is always the new 155 grain SMK. I don't know what velocities the shooters are finding best, but that information should not be hard to get.

And don't put all your eggs in the "supersonic" basket. While it's certainly great if your loads are still super at 1000 yards, it's not absolutely necessary with some bullets.

Ray
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Ray:

I have two 308 barrels for the 12BVSS. I am headed to my shop to check seating depths and case volumes so I can run Quickload. The barrel I prefer is shorter throated. We will change the barrel on Wednesday. I will be busy for a while. Thank you for the help.

Jeffrey Tooker
 
Asa Yam said:
Larry,

Thinks again. Prior to 1995, few 1000 yard barrels exceeded 25" in length - the 190 load was a particular favorite if you could get away with using it. M14 service rifle barrels were (and still are) restricted to 22" by competition rules. Today's M110 (SR-25 derivative) barrel is 20" long. Take a guess as to which bullets the US Army uses in the latter for target work - the answer might surprise you.


BAD IDEA.
There's an old saying in highpower shooting. "Friends don't let friends use 168s (Sierras) at 1000 yards." The 168 Sierra (and the post-1980 180s) are dynamically unstable in flight, and go unstable around Mach 1. We're talking about bullets flying through targets at large yaw angles, (90+ degrees to the line of flight), and highly erratic ballistics. Oh, you can make a 168 Sierra work at 1000 yards - if you can fire it at an MV of 2700+ FPS. There's a notorious load known as "G4" or "G8" that was a long time 1000 yard load using the 168 Sierra. The secret behind this load? 44+ grains of IMR-4895 in a Lake City casing. :eek:
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Asa,
I am converting a Rem 700 ADL 30-06 with 22" barrel for fun use at 600 yards (why 30-06, because I already have it). The Nosler Reload Manual lists 44 grains of 4895 as the most accurate load in their 24" barrel, 1 in 10", test rifle for their 165 BT (I didn't write down the velocity, but I think it was quite low, about 2500+. Hodgen recommends 47.5 grains giving 2762 fps in their
24" barrel rifle for the 165 BT. Is it because of the case volume difference that 44 grains is pushing it in the 308 and not the 30-06? I am asking, because I was just about to start loading a bunch of Nosler 165 BT's with 44 grains of 4895 for this weekend and I just read this post, where you seem concerned with safety, or I am misreading what you are saying? Also, would you expect the 30-06 to exhibit the same "keyhole" problems as the 308 using the 165/167 bullet?
Thanks,
M14
 
model14 said:
I was just about to start loading a bunch of Nosler 165 BT's with 44 grains of 4895 for this weekend and I just read this post, where you seem concerned with safety, or I am misreading what you are saying? Also, would you expect the 30-06 to exhibit the same "keyhole" problems as the 308 using the 165/167 bullet?
Thanks,
M14
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I'm not Asa, but perhaps can substitute in a pinch?

The problem is with the 168 Sierra International Match bullet, not with a particular chambering. The bullet is *dynamically unstable*, the tumbling shows up as the velocity drops toward the speed of sound.

This should not be an issue at 600 yards, though I did not run your numbers through a ballistics program.

No one knows for sure -- at least to my knowledge -- why some bullets are dynamically unstable. (It has nothing to do with rate of twist; that affects gyroscopic stability only, and that is a different animal entirely.) The usual explanation is the specific details of the boattail on the 168 SMK, but again, to my knowledge, that hasn't been conclusively proven.

I suppose you can debate it, but I'd not call dynamic instability a *safety* issue -- perhaps with pits there may be some concern. Accuracy issues, yes .
 
However, my borescope shows a real noticeable increase in the number of shots that can be fired between cleanings.
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Larry,

When you can show me that I would get significantly more than 500rds between cleaning (in a pinch, usually gets scrubbed after 250-300 i.e. after a long weekend match), I'll start thinking about converting to moly. Until then, I'll stick w/ nekkid bullets.

There were some folks @ the FCWC with 23-26" barrels in the F/TR class - usually factory rifles such as Steyr & Sako. They worked okay - not sure what ammo they were using - some flavor of factory load, I believe. The barrel length will work, but stay away from the 168s for 1k. They have been known to shoot superbly out to 800yds... and then go subsonic around 900yds, maybe a little more. If you can get 155s going 2850 or more, I'd seriously consider going that route, although 175s will work great also. Alternately, perhaps try 168s from a different brand - like Berger VLDs. The Nosler 168s are basically a clone of the SMKs, and I don't think the BTHP or A-Max from Hornady is ballistically worth the effort either.
 
milanuk .....

I've never tried to go beyond 250 rounds between cleanings with moly,and it works great. That's the only advantage. Shooters that are looking for any accuracy improvement with moly are going to be disappointed.

The only reason for trying the 168 is they're all I can find. The 175 SMK always beats the 168 (even at 600 yards), and the "new" 155 SMK might be my choice. The 190 SMK just doesn't do well in my rifle. I need a good substitute bullet to keep shooting this rifle - especially at 1,000 yards.

- Innovative
 
Are you shooting at Manatee Gun Club?

My brother Jim Bennington is the president there and shoots moly in all of his long range guns. Hunt him up and say hi!

It this is our first time at 1000, just pick something that makes sense and start shooting. You will have lot's of time to figure it out while you get used to all of the funny things that happen beyond 600 yds. Gotta go, I have a 1k match tomorrow in Colorado.

Good luck
 
Yes . . . . . I'll be shooting at the Manatee range later this month. I may have located some 175 SMKs from another shooter. The odds are looking better, and I'm looking forward to the challenge.

- Innovative
 
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