dazed and confused

rsmithsr

Well-known member
i shoot a 204 vapor trail using rl23 at 2900 fps from a 32" bbl in long range br. my 300 wsm adg brass has been fired 4 times..and now most will not resize !
same load same number of firings, always annealed.
i have both a wilson threaded bushing fl die, and a bullet central micron die.
out of 20 pc only 2 will allow a stripped bolt to close with almost no resistance.
imperial sizing wax
all load development was done on other brass, this is match brass only. weight sorted, neck turned.. clicking at 3rd firing, so i bought the micron die.
is it toast??
match chamber done by a known gunsmith, krieger bbl
help
 
Since few seems to be willing to offer possible solutions, I'll chance making a fool of myself and give it a try. First, I will admit to never having any experience with that cartridge. But in every situation involving bolt click it had to do with a mismatched chamber & die. Since you said this was a "match" chamber, I'm thinking that means it is tighter than SAAMI. IME- bolt click shows up when the chamber is so tight, the die can't reduce the base. I don't know if FB offers a ring die for that case, but that would be where I would look first. Failing that and not knowing any better, I'd probably try polishing the base of the chamber to a few thousandths larger to give the die something to size. I will humbly accept the slings and arrows of those who know better, but that approach as worked well for me on smaller cases like most anything PPC sized.

Rick
 
Agree with Greyfox. You can try firing the brass that fits and take a measurement at the .200" line in its fired position. Maybe take a headspace measurement now, also. Then size the brass and take the same measurements again. If the base of the case did not size down, you know the die isn't sizing as it should and isn't matched to your chamber. However, if your shoulder didn't bump back any, you may just have to run the die in a little deeper, if possible.
 
ok reamer/chamber is just min spec with a turned neck, a throat for this bullet in the neck not in the case, and short neck length clearance,

this is a LOW pressure load by the software. we are talking 55kpsi in a 63.8k spec cartridge.

i have never had brass not resize, this is "premium" brass and low reload count.

i did nothing yesterday i was so frustrated with the brass.
 
update
of 54 pcs i started with 39 sized ok and the remaining 15 did not successfully size (would not chamber easily on a stripped bolt)
i have never had bass not size and this aint cheap brass.
 
update
of 54 pcs i started with 39 sized ok and the remaining 15 did not successfully size (would not chamber easily on a stripped bolt)
i have never had bass not size and this aint cheap brass.
The brass is very unlikely the problem.
 
ok, talking to JGS today about a sizing die reamer

If going to that trouble and expense, why not just get a bigger chamber reamer that works well with standard dies? Seriously, it's about chamber to die relationship that qualifies if the die works well for a given chamber. Seems like it'd be smarter to fix the real issue, which apparently is NOT the die, but the chamber. Am I wrong here? Been doing it this way for several years and it always works for me. The only losers are the custom die makers. Make a chamber that works with either your die, or dies that you can get. Just my 2 cents, though.

Even with as much grief as Dave Kiff catches,(some of it may well be deserved but that's another subject) he's still a wealth of knowledge in this regard because they make most of the re-size reamers used by most of the common die makers, like Redding and Hornady. So he knows the dimensions for the die and can extrapolate from that, chamber reamer dimensions that will work with that die.

Been preaching this method for a long time now. It just makes a ton of sense to me and I know it works because I've been doing it for all that time.

General rule of thumb, at least with ppc/br cases, is use a chamber reamer .003 larger at both the shoulder and the web area of the die. That doesn't mean the sized brass will be that much smaller due to springback. I find 3x fired brass to be sized about .0015 at the shoulder and about .0005-.0006 at the web..after springback. This has proven to work very well. We can split that hair for larger and smaller cartridge diameters etc, but this just works and it works well. No need for custom dies if the chamber is "right".

This whole thing goes back years to when people often spec'd chamber reamers around virgin brass. That created sizing die issues because noone made dies that would size brass below virgin dimensions, understandably. So, hence a custom die industry was born.

There are other reasons to buy custom dies but a sizing die has a very simple and easy job to do if it and the chamber are sized to work well with one another. Finish and features of custom dies are nice but totally unnecessary.
 
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thanks
BUT
if my reamer is just min spec...why are there no sizing dies that work??
i gotta a bunch of custom chambered rifles with min spec chambers, no issues sizing brass..the 300 wsm is the only one.

( mr kif and i are having another discussion about a 30br reamer they 'FIXED' so well it is useless to me. it is back in his hands)

If going to that trouble and expense, why not just get a bigger chamber reamer that works well with standard dies? Seriously, it's about chamber to die relationship that qualifies if the die works well for a given chamber. Seems like it'd be smarter to fix the real issue, which apparently is NOT the die, but the chamber. Am I wrong here? Been doing it this way for several years and it always works for me. The only losers are the custom die makers. Make a chamber that works with either your die, or dies that you can get. Just my 2 cents, though.

Even with as much grief as Dave Kiff catches,(some of it may well be deserved but that's another subject) he's still a wealth of knowledge in this regard because they make most of the re-size reamers used by most of the common die makers, like Redding and Hornady. So he knows the dimensions for the die and can extrapolate from that, chamber reamer dimensions that will work with that die.

Been preaching this method for a long time now. It just makes a ton of sense to me and I know it works because I've been doing it for all that time.

General rule of thumb, at least with ppc/br cases, is use a chamber reamer .003 larger at both the shoulder and the web area of the die. That doesn't mean the sized brass will be that much smaller due to springback. I find 3x fired brass to be sized about .0015 at the shoulder and about .0005-.0006 at the web..after springback. This has proven to work very well. We can split that hair for larger and smaller cartridge diameters etc, but this just works and it works well. No need for custom dies if the chamber is "right".

This whole thing goes back years to when people often spec'd chamber reamers around virgin brass. That created sizing die issues because noone made dies that would size brass below virgin dimensions, understandably. So, hence a custom die industry was born.

There are other reasons to buy custom dies but a sizing die has a very simple and easy job to do if it and the chamber are sized to work well with one another. Finish and features of custom dies are nice but totally unnecessary.
 
update
of 54 pcs i started with 39 sized ok and the remaining 15 did not successfully size (would not chamber easily on a stripped bolt)
i have never had bass not size and this aint cheap brass.

How much are you bumping the shoulders?
 
I agree, Mike. Buying dies....hoping they'll work...w/o identifying the area(s) on the case that are causing the issues, seems a little "bass-ackwards" as my Dad would say. If in fact it's a brass issue at all.

I assume the ejector was checked to make sure it's not the cause as a first step.

Good insight as always, Mike. :)
 
not exactly.
there are several of us that shoot the same basic setup.
300 wsm adg brass vapor trail bullets. and we talk a little. the last comment was a guy having sizing issues and the most senior of the shooters, who had gone with a custom die that did not work, said the micron die was the way to go, so that is what i bought.
as far as not knowing the issue, well i agree, i did not stop and check each point, but simply turned the die down till the bolt closed with no effort.
at this point, when i have fired some more rounds i will measure as i go.
like i said, i have never had the issue before and have over a dozen custom reamers.

alinwa will love this, it is his favorite subject

I agree, Mike. Buying dies....hoping they'll work...w/o identifying the area(s) on the case that are causing the issues, seems a little "bass-ackwards" as my Dad would say. If in fact it's a brass issue at all.

I assume the ejector was checked to make sure it's not the cause as a first step.

Good insight as always, Mike. :)
 
not exactly.
there are several of us that shoot the same basic setup.
300 wsm adg brass vapor trail bullets. and we talk a little. the last comment was a guy having sizing issues and the most senior of the shooters, who had gone with a custom die that did not work, said the micron die was the way to go, so that is what i bought.
as far as not knowing the issue, well i agree, i did not stop and check each point, but simply turned the die down till the bolt closed with no effort.
at this point, when i have fired some more rounds i will measure as i go.
like i said, i have never had the issue before and have over a dozen custom reamers.

alinwa will love this, it is his favorite subject

Well, I'm only going to say that buying something because it's what someone else uses, with likely a different chamber, is worth just that...and that if you don't know where and why the problem is presenting itself, it's a matter of measuring... and we're just not on the same page yet. At least not until you come up to speed with some things pertinent to having an informed discussion on this subject. Frankly, that's why I backed up and asked for how much(a precise number) you were bumping the shoulders back..to establish what you knew to be fact vs the vague answer you gave to my question.

Tight closure is almost never to do with brass or pressure, but a sizing problem. End quote.
You present this as being a certain brass issue so I wanted to get to the basics to start fresh. You can listen or you can tell me how wrong I am, while you search for an answer to your QUESTION...your call. Just don't look for much help going forward if that's what I get for helping.

If the brass came out of your chamber ok after firing, you VERY likely induced the problem while sizing. Again, that's why I asked for a precise actual measurement. If you are truly bumping .001-.002, there should be nothing but air and opportunity between the case and chamber. Diametrically, unless it was way overpressured and/or the die not small enough, by quite a bit, you'd never feel any perceptable resistance to CLOSING the bolt. It could be off a good bit and still not produce much or any feel at that point of bolt closure. That's where good measurements might come into play as well as just plain ol getting it across to me just how much "feel" it has when closing. We'll get to the math on that later if need be, but I'm pretty sure it won't be necessary because I doubt it's the problem at all.

I've been around this game for 25 years, building rifles that have won multiple national championships. I'm not as dumb as you might think but nevertheless, the offer to help was free. Rejecting it or acting like I don't know or can't help...well, that's free too but I have a memory like an elephant when it comes to helping again.

Your question, at least on the surface, appears to be pretty basic and it should be pretty simple to narrow down to a definitive answer. When all else fails, a simple trick with a magic marker or dykem(showing my age) will show where the interference is coming from.

My initial and mostly uninformed(at this point) guess is you aren't really getting as much bump as you think, at least where it matters. Someimes this can be from die design and most certainly, die setup. Just trying to eliminate the simple things first. But as a rule...fired brass, even unsized brass, won't cause BOLT CLOSURE problems until it has a few firings on it or over pressure loads. After sizing, it should of course, always chamber easily IF the shoulder and possibly the neck/shoulder junction are being pushed back as they should be. The brass gets longer before getting bumped back during the sizing operation. Again, I doubt it's a brass problem, since most of them did chamber easily. I do suspect an error somewhere else. It's likely in measuring(due to common tools and methods) or that it's not all being bumped equally. If you're getting .002, that should be enough to account for most any brass variance, though. If some has been fired more times or with hotter loads, that can explain what might appear to be a brass variance, too. Again, just trying to help and to do that, we really need to make sure that all the "simple" things get ruled out first. KISS it before over thinking it, it always good logic. Most issues like this are found to be something overlooked or assumed. If that's not helpful, you won't hear from me again about it.
 
do not run away..i listen to what you say.
it is such a new problem that i am really confused.
like i said when i fire some more, i will measure as i go...
all on hold for a while
 
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