Choice between a SAKO or a Cooper

E

ehkempf

Guest
I am looking to buy a varmint rifle in .22 PPC. I have a choice between a SAKO single shot heavy barrel (Vixen I believe), serial #AXXX or a Cooper Model 21 single shot. Both are close to each other in price. I know how accurate the SAKO is, I use to own the same rifle in 6PPC USA, but stupid me sold it. I don’t know about the Cooper. If you had a choice which one would you buy?

Thanks,
Ed
 
Without a second of hesitation my choice would be the SAKO.

If the Cooper was NIB & half the price,I'd opt for the SAKO.
 
Hunter

Mr. Cooper is no longer with the Cooper Rifle Co. for that very reason.

Ed go for the Sako.

Hal
 
I'm too numb to know what "BO" is as I'm sure it doesn't mean "body odor" ... but I LOVE my Cooper and would take it to a Sako any day. How in the world do we know what the politics or social views of the people who make Sako's are? Buy the gun you want, but base it on the gun not some political statement. I can tell you first hand that Cooper is an excellent company to deal with, makes an excellent product, and few corporate rifles will shoot with them.
 
Sako.

Coopers are beautiful, I still have one I love to look at. It sets front and center in my gun vault. I haven't fired it in years.

But you said 'shoot,' if you have a line on an old A1 Sako just buy it.

opinionby

al
 
sako or cooper

Several years ago I had one of each, both in 6ppc. The cooper did shoot a bitt better.


Joe T
 
I shoot a Sako 6PPC, a Cooper 22-250 and a Cooper MIV. I've won the last 4 events entered in Factory Benchrest with the Sako. The Coopers both shoot sub 1/2 MOA with several 1/4 MOA groups. IMHO these companies produce the most accurate "out of the box" rifles available. Politics aside, the American company is as good as it gets. Bob
 
I owned one of the Sako benchrest in 6PPC and it was a fine shooter for a factory rifle. I also owned a Sako sporter in 22PPC it shot well but was much more finicky than the single shot 6PPC, I ended up selling the 22PPC because I just got tired of it inconsistencies, in retrospect after finding out that the 22PPC sporter/repeater is considered to be fairly rare I should have just put it in the back of the safe.

I own some Coopers and to for me they have been the most consistently accurate "out of the box" rifles I have owned. Mine have performed, as zimmden noted, shooting sub 1/2 MOA with the majority of the groups in the 1/4 MOA range.

I could be happy with either the Sako or Cooper but prefer the Coopers for their stock styling, the good accuracy results I have had with them, and the fact they are American made product.

drover
 
Sounds like accuracy is comparable, wonder which has the better trigger?
I've owned a Forester Varminter in .243, several Finnfires and a Cooper 36 MFW, I'd hate to have to choose between 'em.
 
Factory rifles that can shoot 1/4 MOA groups don't have triggers that "suck". They have safe, reliable adjustable triggers that work well IMHO. These are not after market benchrest triggers.
 
The trigger on my Cooper Model 22 is excellent. I have it adjusted to 6-oz., it breaks clean and no overtravel. Best factory trigger I've ever seen. I love the older Sako's, but Cooper's have a different stock design and are much better to me.
 
The angle is wrong on the Coopers, they're not perpendicular to the bore and they're not safe below about 1.5lb with the overtravel set to not steer the rifle.

The Sako sports a European style Two-Stage trigger that feels like a trampoline.

In short, they suck.


BTW it's perty easy to shoot 1/4moa with a 3lb trigger......



if it doesn't suck.





opinionsby









al
 
alinwa said:
The angle is wrong on the Coopers, they're not perpendicular to the bore and they're not safe below about 1.5lb with the overtravel set to not steer the rifle.


BTW it's perty easy to shoot 1/4moa with a 3lb trigger......
Click to expand...

You have lost me, it sounds like your respone is slanted more to benchrest triggers rather than hunting rifle triggers. Would you please clarify your comment about the angle being wrong on Coopers? What angle? If you are speaking of the trigger sear and firing pin sear they are 90 degree angles, not an override trigger like the Remington, is that what you are referring to? If so what is wrong with a 90 degree angle?

I am really confused about not being "perpendicular to the bore", what is not perpendicular to the bore and why is it a problem?

As far as safety, I run most of mine at 1.5#'s with no issues at all, they do not slam fire, they are extremely consistent. My 6PPC Cooper is set at a10 ounces and it performs properly with no issues.

I also need some clarification on your comment about the overtravel set to not steer the rifle, are you referring to benchrest triggers rather than hunting triggers.


Neither the Cooper or Sako have benchrest triggers but IMO they are a great, easily adjustable, very consistent trigger and since this is the Hunting Rifle forum I assume that we are speaking in the context of a hunting rifle trigger, not a bench rest trigger.

Perhaps my reading comprehension is off tonight but I am totally confused about the points you are trying to make in your reply, or was your response in jest?

drover

p.s. - "BTW it's perty easy to shoot 1/4moa with a 3lb trigger......" - you are kidding, right? We both know that it is difficult to shoot consistent 1/4" groups even with a benchrest rifle.
 
You have lost me, it sounds like your respone is slanted more to benchrest triggers rather than hunting rifle triggers. Would you please clarify your comment about the angle being wrong on Coopers? What angle? If you are speaking of the trigger sear and firing pin sear they are 90 degree angles, not an override trigger like the Remington, is that what you are referring to? If so what is wrong with a 90 degree angle?

I am really confused about not being "perpendicular to the bore", what is not perpendicular to the bore and why is it a problem?
Click to expand...

I feel strongly that a trigger should be pulled straight back. My Cooper trigger is biased forward at the bottom, it hangs such that it doesn't pull straight back but exerts more pressure on the bottom of the trigger finger. It doesn't "get out of the way" well. Which brings us to,

As far as safety, I run most of mine at 1.5#'s with no issues at all, they do not slam fire, they are extremely consistent. My 6PPC Cooper is set at a10 ounces and it performs properly with no issues.

I also need some clarification on your comment about the overtravel set to not steer the rifle, are you referring to benchrest triggers rather than hunting triggers.
Click to expand...

"getting out of the way." I set my triggers with some slack at the back, free overtravel. I know, I know.... I went to the Leonard Brownell Schoole Of Gunsmithing where a good trigger "is like breaking an icicle, or a thin glass rod except that you don't feel it move." I did this for a long time, until I learned about steering the rifle. I learned that the bullet is in the barrel for at least a tenth of an inch of rearward recoil travel.... that's an eternity! You can drive the rifle all over the place in a tenth inch. And I don't differentiate between hunting and target, 2 ounces or two pounds.... a good trigger is a good trigger.

Neither the Cooper or Sako have benchrest triggers but IMO they are a great, easily adjustable, very consistent trigger and since this is the Hunting Rifle forum I assume that we are speaking in the context of a hunting rifle trigger, not a bench rest trigger.
Click to expand...

OK, I prefer a number of triggers to them, my opinion :)


Perhaps my reading comprehension is off tonight but I am totally confused about the points you are trying to make in your reply, or was your response in jest?

drover

p.s. - "BTW it's perty easy to shoot 1/4moa with a 3lb trigger......" - you are kidding, right? We both know that it is difficult to shoot consistent 1/4" groups even with a benchrest rifle.
Click to expand...


Well, no, I'm not kidding at all. It's not at all hard to shoot consistent quarter inch groups with a BR rifle. In fact I build and sell hunting rifles that will agg 1/4 inch....it's hard to shoot 1/4 inch out on the range, in competition, through the day but it's not at all hard to shoot small in controlled conditions. In fact I fully expect my rifles to shoot dots when the range permits, so that when the conditions are 'real' I can get honest feedback from the gun. I expected my Cooper to shoot 1/2" groups which it can do but it's hard to shoot, the trigger makes it harder. I expected less from the Sako but got more, even with the weird trigger. I expect ANYONE to shoot under 1/4" groups with any of a dozen of my not-factory rifles if I stand behind them and tell them when to shoot, and have done just that with many people.

al
 
alinwa said:
I did this for a long time, until I learned about steering the rifle....

It's not at all hard to shoot consistent quarter inch groups with a BR rifle....t's not at all hard to shoot small in controlled conditions. In fact I fully expect my rifles to shoot dots when the range permits....I expect ANYONE to shoot under 1/4" groups with any of a dozen of my not-factory rifles if I stand behind them and tell them when to shoot, and have done just that with many people.
Click to expand...


Can you elaborate on the specifics of "steering the rifle"?

I've seen a lot of BR aggs that exceed 1/4" -- can you explain what you mean by "t's not at all hard to shoot consistent quarter inch groups with a BR rifle"?

Can you explain what you mean by "controlled conditions" and ""when the range permits"?

When you "expect ANYONE to shoot 1/4" groups with [your] not-factory rifles," are you talking three- or five-shot groups? Also, what magic do you "work" that results in such outstanding shooting?
 
aka Hunter said:
Can you elaborate on the specifics of "steering the rifle"?

I've seen a lot of BR aggs that exceed 1/4" -- can you explain what you mean by "t's not at all hard to shoot consistent quarter inch groups with a BR rifle"?

Can you explain what you mean by "controlled conditions" and ""when the range permits"?

When you "expect ANYONE to shoot 1/4" groups with [your] not-factory rifles," are you talking three- or five-shot groups? Also, what magic do you "work" that results in such outstanding shooting?
Click to expand...


Steering the rifle is buggering the shot AFTER the trigger is pulled. Also called bad follow through.

I don't consider three shots to be a group, I refer to 5-shot groups with an aggregate group being 25 shots, ALL holes counted.

BR aggs fired in competition are very different than testing aggregates fired under no pressure and when the range conditions are easy. FACT is, it's incredibly easy to fire 1/4" groups with a good rifle, WHEN THE RANGE PERMITS IT.


"controlled conditions" can mean anything from a protected tunnel or building to simply being able to shoot any day, all day picking those times when outdoor conditions are optimal.

"when the range permits" seems self explanatory to me....

As far as anyone being able to shoot 1/4" groups with a BR rifle........ I guess you have to see this to believe it. Shoot a real BR rifle, you WILL shoot 1/4" 5-shot groups on the testing range. If you don't the rifle is crap.

As far as my hunting setups, I'll share this, I apply BR techniques to hunting rifles by isolating what's different and fixing the problems. BR guns are STIFF stocks and SMALL cartridges often glued together, I'll call it a high stiffness to power ratio, getting these features in a repeater presents some problems. Hunting rifles I set up have a bunch of features that cost money, not magic. Some items are;
-shortened chambers,
-clocked barrels,
-fitted dies,
-biased bedding/alignment,
-magwell area stiffened using thicker walls of solid fiber,
-magwell area stiffened using blind 'ADL' style bottom or AL 'chassis' setup,
-forends stiffened/extended/tensioned using threaded rod/steel weights/ pultruded carbon fiber rod stock,
-scopes properly mounted (this is HUGE, IMO 99% of all scope problems can be traced to improper installation)


and on and on. I'm currently testing a large 338 and I started with two new custom actions, 5 barrels and 5 stocks. Over time and by swapping components I've established to my satisfaction that the cartridge will shoot. It's been two years now with this case and I've established that the setup will shoot, as a single shot in a Heavy McMillan BR stock with the scoped setup coming in at 18lb......or as a 16lb repeater. Now I'm working on bringing the weight down. So far I've had one stock custom fabricated by a stock company (fail) and am laying up the mold as we speak to build a carbon fiber stock from the ground up because this beast turns normal stuff into pasta. "Vibration control??" HAHH! This setup makes me want to term it "earthquake control!" Trying to get a large gun to steer down the centerline is kinda' like launching a dragster with your eyes closed, on a wet track, pushbutton throttle........ and you're not allowed to touch the steering wheel.

al
 
alinwa said:
Steering the rifle is buggering the shot AFTER the trigger is pulled. Also called bad follow through.

I don't consider three shots to be a group, I refer to 5-shot groups with an aggregate group being 25 shots, ALL holes counted.

BR aggs fired in competition are very different than testing aggregates fired under no pressure and when the range conditions are easy. FACT is, it's incredibly easy to fire 1/4" groups with a good rifle, WHEN THE RANGE PERMITS IT.

...

Hunting rifles I set up have a bunch of features that cost money, not magic. Some items are;
...
-clocked barrels,
...
-scopes properly mounted (this is HUGE, IMO 99% of all scope problems can be traced to improper installation)
Click to expand...

I hope you don't mind more questions/comments.

First, what are some of the common things you call "bad follow through"?

Second, if "it's incredibly easy to fire 1/4" groups with a good rifle, WHEN THE RANGE PERMITS IT" and you're "refer[ring] to 5-shot groups with an aggregate group being 25 shots, ALL holes counted," I guess I haven't been around any such range conditions. I'm interested in hearing your description of such conditions.

Third, can you elaborate on "clocked barrels"? I'm not familiar with that term.

Fourth, what are some of the common scope installation problems you see?
 
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