can someone with some patience help a newbie to RFBR shooting?

K

King Ghidora

Guest
I shot at my first competition the day before Thanksgiving. I don't think I shot very well at all considering how I shoot here at home every day. I know a lot of people are going to say that when they just want people to think they can shoot better than they can. I don't believe I fall into that category to be honest but that's up to others to judge I guess.

I hope I never offended the person who invited me to shoot because I'm a competitive person and always have been. When I think I didn't do as well as I could have I don't react too well to it.

Here's where I think my problems lie. First and foremost I have never been a range shooter. Where I live there is lots of room to shoot without having to pay for the privilege. My problem showed up real quick because I couldn't get my position set at all. It takes me a week to setup a new comfortable position at home to shoot. Trying to do it while the clock was ticking was too much to ask for me. I ended up holding the butt stock up with my left hand because I couldn't get down where I could even see through the scope from the position I was in. I couldn't try to get setup before the match started because there was no time for that. The light was on the entire time before the shoot.

My first target I shot a 650. People encouraged me telling me that wasn't bad for a first time shooter. But I've been shooting for 45 years and I shoot better than that every day in my yard. My second target wasthe real joke though because I tried to adjust my scope (which was set for my 50 yard target at home which is downhill from where I sit). Apparently my cheap scope was already set at the maximum for compensating for drop. When I tried to adjust it the only thing that happened was it got worse. Much worse. I didn't even stick around to see the score on my second target because it was awful. I was in the bullseye several times on the first target even though I was touching the line on most of those shots. I completely missed the targets several times on my second target group. That was embarassing.

I know I need to join the club and get out to the range to get setup to shoot from their benches. And I've shimmed my scope base to get to where I can adjust it in the correct range. I have a better quality scope but it's half as powerful and doesn't have A/O. And my cheap one holds zero well and it's got clear glass. It seems I shoot about the same with either scope here at home. The scope I'm using is a Simmons (I know what you're thinking) and my other scope is a Nikon. But for straight up paper punching the Simmons seems to do better because it's a 6-18X50 instead of a 3-9X40 and my tired old eyes don't see that well any more.

I guess mainly I'm disappointed because I shoot better at home every day than I did at the shoot. I'm shooting a Savage MkIIFV. I mostly shoot Shoot-N-C targets (again because I can see them better) and at home it generally takes me from 5 to 10 shots to knock out all of the orange which is only half an inch wide. Then I shoot the numbers (for the score on the rings) out which takes me one or two shots to hit a number that's 3/8" tall and less than 1/4" wide. I know it's easy to say these things but I'll provide some proof if needed. I shoot video for a living so it's no problem for me to video what I shoot. For example I shot this video of me cutting blades of grass in two at 40 yards with my Marlin Model 60. BTW the video won't stream so you'll have to download the whole thing to watch it.

I think you'll see from the video that I shouldn't be missing the target completely at a shoot. I could deal with just shooting a 650 my first time but that second target just really embarassed me. If anyone has any suggestions they'd like to share I'd appreciate it. Sorry if I sound whiney or like a jerk here. I'm just trying to shoot a little better. I don't expect to go on tour to all the national events or anything (fat chance of that) but I would like to hit the targets. I know I have a tendency to post too much info so again, please forgive me.
 
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You know I read this and I feel that I'm responding to an accomplished shooter who simply wants to play a game. But, what the heck, I've bit on worse and if not you, if could help somebody else.

1. You shoot at home everyday, but you don't say what distance (you do say later it is 50 yards downhill; is it measured?) , since you state the score is a 650, I'm going to assume ARA at 50 yards or at least an ARA like target.

2.When I think I didn't do as well as I could have I don't react too well to it. Well guess what, you can see that during the target not just after. Not reacting well only makes the bad worse.

3. It takes me a week to setup a new comfortable position at home to shoot. Trying to do it while the clock was ticking was too much to ask for me. Pressure. The game is timed learn to deal with it. Otherwise, and not trying to discourage you, give it up. The game is timed.

4. Apparently my cheap scope was already set at the maximum for compensating for drop. This is not a game for cheap equipment. You can start there, but don't expect to do well against seasoned competition.

5. The scope I'm using is a Simmons (I know what you're thinking) and my other scope is a Nikon. But for straight up paper punching the Simmons seems to do better because it's a 6-18X50 instead of a 3-9X40 and my tired old eyes don't see that well any more. See above and your scope is underpowerd. Again, you can start there.

6. I'm shooting a Savage MkIIFV. I mostly shoot Shoot-N-C targets (again because I can see them better) and at home it generally takes me from 5 to 10 shots to knock out all of the orange which is only half an inch wide. Unless you're deliberately attempting to knock out the half inch wide orange, that's a big group. Your rifle is most likely not competitive against typical BR rifles.

7. Then I shoot the numbers (for the score on the rings) out which takes me one or two shots to hit a number that's 3/8" tall and less than 1/4" wide. Are you simply hitting them (worst edge) or taking them out (best edge).

8. I shoot video for a living so it's no problem for me to video what I shoot. For example I shot this video of me cutting blades of grass in two at 40 yards with my Marlin Model 60. I couldn't get the video, but typical grass offers a wide cross section. With a good BR rifle you could make a hole in it and not cut it. Cutting it means you're hitting it somewhere that you're breaking the supporting side. Really a big target compared to what BR requires.

My suggestion would be go back with the same equipment. Forget the prior shot no matter what it does and focus on the one at hand. Don't expect to do great, but expect to do better. If you like it, expect to spend significant amounts of cash on equipment. By the way, you didn't mention ammo.

Again, the scenario you present almost says. "Here, let me show you how to be really clever and make it look like I should be a bad shooter when I know I'm not." In other words, you seem to be fishing for somebody to answer. Like I said, I'll bite. For one thing, everything you say may be accurate, for another if it does not help you, then maybe somebody else.
 
King Ghidora,

Your problem is 'PRESSURE' to perform...I have seen this countless times when new shooters turn up to shoot competition...most of them can shoot tiny groups when they're shooting at home or out in the bush but when it's time to compete with other shooters you put too much pressure on yourself.

You need to relax and not worry about what other people think or be embarrassed about your score...no one expects you to be a world beater the first time out.

Steve
 
You don't say how your rifle was supported. With a typical windage head front rest and rear bag; two minutes is a long time to "get comfortable". From the command to 'Bring your equipment to the line' to 'Commence fire' is at least that long. Just be sure you are in center of target with windage and elevation adjustments at mid point. I don't want to discourage a new shooter. However, you would not go golfing without clubs or fishing without tackle. It would be a rare match where you could not borrow such necessities as rests and bags. Rimfire benchrest shooters are a hospitable bunch except during actual time between commence fire and cease fire.
Don
 
KIng G- It would be wise of you to listen to Beau and Don Stith. They both are accomplished bench rest shooters. The name of the game is to enjoy your time spent competing ,making friends and trying every time you get to shoot at the range to learn something you didn't know before. To start with you are not going to be king of the hill until you have paid your dues. To pay your dues I mean to find the best equipment you can. Check the other guys out to see what type of rifles they are useing along with scope ,rest and most important ammo . If you really want to compete you need to get serious about your equipment. You can't compete with folks that have top of the line rifles ,scopes or rests. You should decide now if you really want to get involved in this game or not. If you do you are going to have spend some money. If you don't want to be on par with others on the line you need to just shoot in your back yard. I hope you will join the rest of us and become a great competor. Where do you live ? Where do you shoot? What club? I live in North Carolina and shoot at Riverside Gun Club and at Rockingham Gun Club when invited. I also help a friend from time to time run matches at Durham Rifle and Pistole Club. You would find folks willing to help you at all these places. garrisone.
 
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If you really want help go to matches.
If you are really serious about learning rimfire benchrest then go to the Rocky River Barn for the ARA Indoor Nats this weekend.
If you get there early Friday morning you will learn more in the next 12 hours than you will ever learn on this forum!!
Then Sat and Sun you can practice what you learned on Friday.
 
You did perfect for your first match,,,,, except for the ego part. Leave that part of the equation at home, it hurts your scores and your enjoyment. I recommend to people about to go to their first match that they should expect to finish last. That way there is no disappointment.

Every range is a bit different so there is always a bit of a learning curve to figure out what is required to get set up for a new range. Going to more matches will help out with getting the bench set up a bit quicker. You can also practice this at home.

Going to that first match lays the groundwork for step by step improvements. I have seen lucky beginners that happened to buy a super rifle and shoot excellent targets for their first match or two. But they also seem to shoot some really bad targets which baffles them. They don't have the deeper understanding that comes from making the step by step improvments in their knowledge.
 
relax, learn to laugh at yourself, others won't be laughing at you !!!
they might check the scored targets and seek you out .. only to welcome
you and ask if you need help.

i work part time in a gun shop, I've got a custom rifle photo album, ARA, RBA, and ARG targets out on the counter for show and tell, but most shooters coming in don't want to be told or shown..they seem to not be willing to change.
it's good to see you asking for help !!
as far as equipment, research carefully before you buy !!
you can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear, nor pound square pegs in round holes...but i've still got my hammer and thread:D
 
King,

Go to local matches and shoot in them. I was lucky that I started shooting with a bunch of guys who were also learning. But I have learned more from the shooters who shoot more.

I am a better offhand shot than most of the people that I shoot benchrest with. It's not bragging if you can do it. This benchrest game is different and requires different skills and equipment. It is as challenging as any other kind of shooting and it grows on you. It is not automatic.

A wise shooter told me when I was starting that I have only myself to compete with and I have lived with that.

The shooters on this board want to help you all they can but at the matches you can learn much more.

Concho Bill
 
King,

Practice, at home, on the type of target you will be shooting at the next match. Then and only then will you be able to tell what scores that YOU, your rifle, ammo and equipment are capable of.
ALSO, as Bob Collins once told me, " if you don't set out your wind flags every time you practice you are just wasting ammo".

Al Kunard
 
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King G,

I've followed many of your posts on RFC, and with that said, much of your post was what I expected to see when you started shooting legit rimfire matches. Spending time shooting grass and making a video of it; I'm not sure of the purpose other than the neat factor.

As many others have said, it's both a learning curve and a equipment evolution. Most of us go through a number of rifles and equipment before we finally get the perfect rifle for our needs.

Something that I havn't seen mentioned directly: did you actually enjoy the event? I know reality was a bit much at the moment, but it is what it is.

Before you go out and spend alot of money on equipment, decide if you like the game. You're gonna do alot of losing at first, especially if you shoot a large clubs. It's frustrating, expensive, and very humbling at big events. If that's not your bag, then I'd be very carefull in putting more money into this.

s.
 
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I'm going to assume ARA at 50 yards or at least an ARA like target.
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Correct.

The game is timed learn to deal with it.
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The game part wasn't the problem. The problem was getting setup. I had plenty of time to shoot. But trying to get set in an unfamiliar bench with only a few boards and a sandbag was just not going to happen. My stool was too tall for one thing. I couldn't get down to the level of my rifle.

This is not a game for cheap equipment. You can start there, but don't expect to do well against seasoned competition.
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I thought I made it clear I didn't expect to win anything. I just didn't like shooting so much worse than I normally shoot. BTW I was using CCI SV ammo. My rifle likes it. I have Wolf MT and ME and SK Jagd in my ammo box but the CCI does very well in my Savage.

your scope is underpowerd. Again, you can start there.
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Well I didn't buy it for BR shooting. I just used it because it was the most powerful scope I had. I have better quality scopes but they are even more underpowered. Can you suggest a power rating that is enough and maybe a good scope in that power range?

Unless you're deliberately attempting to knock out the half inch wide orange, that's a big group. Your rifle is most likely not competitive against typical BR rifles.
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I do try to shoot out the orange. The first few shots are easy. Getting those last little bits of orange are not so easy. And this was a stock rifle competition so I wasn't shooting against top grade equipment. Besides I'm not worried about how I did against others. I just want to shoot like I usually shoot. I'm not expecting to win any gold medals or even any tin medals. My best group has been a .122 but I certainly can't do that all the time. I can shoot quarter inch groups pretty often and half inch groups a lot. And yes I've measured the distance to my target at home.

Are you simply hitting them (worst edge) or taking them out (best edge).
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I'm not quite sure about the terminology you use but I often hit right in the center of the numbers. I don't do that every time but I do it often enough that it isn't a fluke. I'd say I can do that about 1/3 of the time or more. With the Shoot-N-C targets the whole number disappears but I look at the targets up close and I see where I hit. I included a sample of the groups I shoot at home. These are average size groups for me I guess. They aren't world beating groups but they're better than what I did at the shoot.

I couldn't get the video, but typical grass offers a wide cross section. With a good BR rifle you could make a hole in it and not cut it. Cutting it means you're hitting it somewhere that you're breaking the supporting side. Really a big target compared to what BR requires.
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I can't agree there. The grass I was shooting was at best 1/4" wide.

Don't expect to do great, but expect to do better.
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Well I will know what to expect and I'll be sure my scope isn't dropping out of it's range of adjustment which will be a big help. And I'll bring my own stool so that should help too. I appreciate the help you offered Beau. And I'm not fishing for anything except help. I don't lie and I don't exaggerate. I'm not even sure what you're suggesting that I was trying to get. I just told my situation in my usual too many words style.

Your problem is 'PRESSURE' to perform
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That could be part of my problem I guess but I really didn't expect to do anything other than what I normally do. My shooting position was a big problem and my scope was a big problem. But thanks for the help Steve.

You don't say how your rifle was supported.
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That was my big problem. My rifle was supported by sandbags and blocks of wood in the front but I couldn't get them high enough for me to see through my scope well. I would have had to stack wood 18" high. My seat was too high is what I'm thinking my big problem was. Yes people were very friendly and willing to load me things to work with. But I had the shortest stool in the place. I had to back way up and bend way over and try to turn my neck to see. I couldn't even get a cheek weld if that tells you anything. Again I didn't expect to win the compeition but I expected to do better than I did. Thanks for the help Don.

You did perfect for your first match,,,,, except for the ego part.
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Well I guess I've always enjoyed pushing myself to do better. I don't want to win the competitions to be honest. I just want to do the best I can. It bothers me when I don't. That's just me.

they seem to not be willing to change
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Well I hope I'm not like that. I'm hoping to get some suggestions on exactly what equipment to buy. I have some guns I could trade for a good BR gun or I could sell them and have a little more to spend. I'm guessing I can come up with about $1200 for now. Anybody want to buy a S&W .44 magnum? ;)

I've followed many of your posts on RFC, and with that said, much of your post was what I expected to see when you started shooting legit rimfire matches. Spending time shooting grass and making a video of it; I'm not sure of the purpose other than the neat factor.

It's frustrating, expensive, and very humbling at big events.
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I shot the video to prove that I could do it when people accused me of exaggerating on another board. I no longer access that board because of such things. And what's this stuff about you expecting that I would do this? Do you have ESP? And you don't know if I'll be humbled. I could turn out to be the next national champion for all you know. I don't expect that because I don't have the money to do it for one thing. But this stuff about you knowing what I would do before I did it is bull. Maybe you get humbled but assuming you know others will is just way over the top IMO. I don't expect anything. I just showed up to shoot in a stock gun shoot. I suspect if I had the money and the time I could do pretty well but I don't really have the desire to do it. For one thing I have some serious health issues. But you didn't know that. So speak for yourself when you talk about what you know ahead of time. That kind of comments I don't need. I could tell you what I expect comes from the kind of post you just made but I expect you already know. Tell me Swami what exactly made you think you knew what to expect from me? Before you shoot your mouth off remember I did shoot a 650 my first try and that was without even having a cheek weld. You don't know me sir and I'd appreciate you not talking down to me like that.

Thanks again for all those who offered constructive advice. I'd really like some suggestions for some equipment to buy because I did enjoy shooting at the competition but not because I want to beat anyone. I just want to see for myself what I can do. I don't expect to shoot like Annie Oakley but I don't expect to shoot like Mr. Magoo either. Again I'd like to assure some of you that I'm here for actual help and not because of some ego issue. I push myself but it has nothing to do with being better than anyone else. However good I am it's not my work that made me that way. God did that and we all have our talents. Anyone who is arrogant is taking credit for works he didn't do IMO. And let's please not make that an issue. That's how I think and I won't be changing it.

Anyway thanks again. And here's my sample groups. These are the black stickers that come with the Shoot-N-C targets that are used to cover up holes. They are 3/4" wide. They generally come loose and fall off the target after about 3 shots.

groups.jpg
 
"Tell me Swami what exactly made you think you knew what to expect from me? "

Your tone and word choice. You spent a great deal of time discussing the amazing accuracy of your Savage on RFC. Shooting tiny groups, grass, whatever. You were a big part of the "I can prove it" discussion there as well, and again grass cutting video's and shoot-n-c targets to make your point. Then you get to enjoy the fun of an ARA target. Reality check isn't it? That blade of grass looks like a barn door now doesn't it.

Where do your issues of personal health come into this?

This is quite simple: Better equipment, more practice. No, not Swami or Sherlock, how about Capt. Obvious?

"45 years of shooting every day" and you're shocked at the outcome of your first match? Really? I mean, really? No, really.

Your second post was even more predictable than the content of the first.

Would you like to know the secret of 2500 targets?

Tell ya what, there is a shooter here on this forum; Caddyjack. He was in the same position as you, not long ago. He did two things very well that got him shooting outstanding scores in a very short period of time.

Good luck.
 
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I will say that you will be welcome at any shoot and will receive more help than you can use if you indicate that is what you want. I will also add that you are not even in the ball game yet with what you are showing. By the way, we don't use a cheek weld....
 
Sir,
Looks like to me you learned a lot at your first match. Your stool is too high, your rest set up is wrong for the benches there, scope is insufficient.
I've always tried to learn something from every match and every new range that I shoot. You may not win anything, but it gives you some ideas on what areas you need to work on when you shoot that match again.
I'd say you learned a lot. As far as competition BR goes, I just don't see a way to almost do it, or do it casually, or any way to advise anyone in that manner. It's a game of top precision and you have to pull out all the stops, using the best equipment you can find and best ammo, and most important of all is get a great set of wind flags and learn how to shoot with them.

Like I said, the way I see it is that you did learn quite a bit from the first outing. That's what it's about. Work on those areas. Were you using a benchrest or front and rear sandbags? Get you a 36X scope.
 
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King Ghidora,

I would say that at a minimum you need to buy a new scope and a front rest and rear sandbag. The scope is easy, you can buy a Weaver T-36 new for as little as $375.00 from Dan Killough. The rest setup is really a matter of preference and how much you can afford. ARA allows one piece rests, but if you shoot something like IR 50/50 a one piece rest cannot be used. I would start off with a two piece rest (front rest with windage top, and a rear sandbag). The cost on these are also all over the map, but since you are just starting out I would go a little lower in price range just in case you decide that the sport is not for you. You can get a Sinclair Generation II B/R Windage for $ 369.00 and a Protektor Front Bag for $17.50 and either a Bunny Ear or Rabbit Ear for $44.95. R.W. Hart also sells similar rest for about the same price. Like I said there are much better rests out there but the price also begins to go up accordingly. Good luck and hope you continue to shoot in some upcoming matches.

Ed Kempf
 
Did you take note?

Of what the other shooters were using? It might be time to rethink your obejective. You did not say what match you shot at and what target was used. First time out and shot a 600 something with the equipment you used, is very good and expected if you shot a ARA event. On the other hand a score of 600 something on an IR50/50 or RBA target, you did better than anyone else has ever done on those targets. Congradulations.
 
i'd say if your ganna start shooting in a.r.a. matches your going to have to upgade to a much better rifle. i see alot of money changing hands in your future!! i see a weaver t36,new rifle,tuner, rests and eley ammo coming into the crystol ball as well. this sure isn't a cheap hobby at all and may not be what you want to here. your rifle may be great for shooting grass and small game animals, but not a.r.a. ir50/50 or rba targets unless your in a outlaw match that has a class and price limit on rifles.
 
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