Brass Brands vs. Accuracy - Article

VG, you're too busy making ridiculous assumptions and think you know everything already to open your eyes. The only thing you've "won" is the title of forum idiot!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Enough quotations and explanation points for you?????

From the beginning, nobody said good groups couldn't be shot with cheap brass. The contention has been the author's methodology. To suggest he has "proven" anything is ridiculous. We all know more uniform brass will produce the best results. Thats why people use flash hole deburring tools, primer pocket uniformers, and so on. We also know brass is of different volumes and creates different pressures. We know barrels react to different pressures differently. You do the math and show us how the author "proved" anything!!!!!

Quit lying to yourself, and open your eyes.


ETA: VG, sine you're being stubborn, I'll be the same. You didn't purchase a rifle in "caliber .338 Federal", you purchased a rifle chambered for the .338 Federal cartridge. A "caliber" is .172", .204", .224, etc...while .338 Federal is a cartridge.
 
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;)
VarmintGuy said:
Am I reading the following quotes correctly???

"For the final time, nobody said one couldn't shoot great groups with less than premium brass. I've shot thousands of varmints and groups with less than premium brass".

"Can Remington brass shoot good groups? Of course it can as you have already stated".

"I would be satisfied that the particular load combination using the Remington brass outperformed the Lapua"

Fellows, fellows, fellows (and liars and distorters!) it now appears I have WON some of you over to my original contention!
The above quotes "PROVE" it!
Please check my original post to verify from wherest I am coming!
And this - I will publicly state that, of the hundreds (literally hundreds!) of reloaders, competition shooters, Hunters, Varminters and plinkers I know and have known - I have never heard of even ONE of them testing all the brands of brass available for their factory/hybrid Rifles to the extent of shooting 30 (thirty!) five shot groups with each brand of brass available!
Wearing out your barrel testing is not a very "intelligent" or prudent thing to do!
Never even heard of anyone doing the 30 groups with every load and every brand of brass available, not once! And I am certain it is less than 1/10th of 1 percent of all shooters who may have done so!
So sloughing off the credibility and results of the authors findings in his article in Handloader Magazine as somehow that the author did not test every load possible with every brass available is just simply ludicrous!
I know shooters can obtain excellent accuracy with less than premium brass - I know because I have done it!
I have seen countless other shooters do it and therefore as I originally expressed in my initial posting - I feel vindicated for my use of and my sometimes (up til now!) tepid support for less than premium brass to obtain accuracy!
Another factor that MUST come into play these days is the simple reality that premium brass is not available in ALL calibers that factory/hybrid Rifles can be obtained in!
What's a shooter to do if Norma or LaPua does not make brass for their caliber?
I know what "I" do.
I use less than premium brass and still obtain excellent accuracy!
And one of the posters laments the WHOLE concept of the long lived and fine magazine that the article was published in as "a rag" and "not worth reading"!!!
Well I don't agree with everything published in every magazine but blanket condemnation like that of such a fine magazine and one that has been around so long is just elitism and snobbishness run on to its "nth degree"!
And for those of you concerned about me and wondering where I have been - I have been on an extended foray of Varmint Hunting, shooting, guntrading and entertaining out of state guests from New Hampshire, Illinois, Washington and Louisiana.
Rain yesterday and today have halted the trigger fun but it is due to resume tomorrow with two shooters from Florida.
So far I have not seen one piece of "premium brass" fed into a factory/hybrid Rifle in the last week!
Some very long shots were made (these require accuracy!) on Varmints during this time!
Maybe some of you not yet convinced "premium brass only" types are saying to yourselves, "I just don't know how it could be done" but the proof is the distant and dead Varmints.
I say thank goodness for non-premium brass and how well it can shoot!
As proven by the article in question from the excellent magazine Handloader.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy
PS: I am headed for my friends private range (complete with rain proof shooting shack!) this afternoon with a new Rifle I picked up a couple days ago its a Tikka T-3 in caliber 338 Federal. I have some Federal factory ammo to do barrel breakin with but do you guys think I should wait for Norma and LaPua to come out with 338 Federal brass before beginning my handload testing?
Or do you think I should buy some Norma 308 Winchester brass for $1.10 per piece or maybe buy some LaPua 308 Winchester brass for 62 cents per piece? (These prices do not include shipping and require large lot purchases from those "premium" brass suppliers!)
Or will I be able to obtain good accuracy with "non-premium" brass at a fraction of those brass costs?
I'll let you know.
Click to expand...

Dang VG not only can you shoot,you sure can type:eek:
 
Lynn is being far to nice, VG you are just an idiot !!

You type out your drivel in the certain belief that you have finally "won" which is really all you set out to do anyway.

You simply cannot see past your own idiocy to see the situation for what it is. Nobody suggested that the writer should have tested every brass brand with a variety of loads and shot thrirty groups with each load. You read things into peoples posts to suit your own agenda and ignore the actual intent of the post, either that or you are just to stupid to actually grasp what is being said.

All his test did was to confirm that cheap brass can shoot decent groups. It didn't prove that cheap brass is as good as premium brass or that premium brass isn't worth the cost. Don't wait on Lapua or Norma brass or make it from other premium brass for your Tikka 338 Federal, the rifle and calibre will simply not shoot well enough to demonstrate the slight accuracy gain that premium brass could achieve.

Sure non premium brass can shoot fine, so what, that is no surprise to most people here. It is also well known that where available premium brass can offer a slight accuracy edge over cheap brass if loads are tuned optimally for both types. The case and neck walls are more uniform in thisckness which helps loaded round concentricity and assists the bullet to start off nice and true down the barrel. It is quite easily demonstrated if you know anything about accuracy loading and shooting. I am surprised that you have all those rifles in 22 and 6BR etc and haven't figured that out.

If you are going to impress everybody with your wordy rebuttle how about actually use some paragraphs and proper structure so we can actually read it without going cross eyed.

Get over yourself and come into the real world with the rest of the guys here.
 
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Varmint Guy,

I tried my best. I thought I was clear but I guess not.

I think you should buy and use whatever cheap brass works for you. Do NOT buy premium brass. If you want to use a small number of groups (5, for example) to test for accuracy, that's great. No one is trying to force you to use brass you don't think will out-perform what you are using now, and no one is trying to force you to shoot a large number of groups for accuracy testing. Do whatever works for you but don't try to tell us what works best for us!

As for me, if I want to squeeze all the accuracy I can out of my varmint rifles I will buy premium brass. And I will not rely on five, 5-shot groups to predict the accuracy of any particular brass/powder charge/bullet/rifle combination.
 
VarmintGuy said:
Wearing out your barrel testing is not a very "intelligent" or prudent thing to do!
Never even heard of anyone doing the 30 groups with every load and every brand of brass available, not once!
Click to expand...

Guess you don't spend much time at the range. Lots of people do nothing but work up loads and test them for groups, group after group, worn out barrel after barrel just for the joy of shooting and handloading day after day month on end for years. Maybe you should read Precision Shooting magazine and order some of the books that are available, once you've studied them a few months you might begin to realize that newstand magazines only touch on the tip of the iceberg when it comes to serious shooting.

I use factory guns and custom guns using non premium and premium brass for the exclusive purpose of shooting groups, nothing else, thats what benchrest shooters do. In my unintelligence I have worn out barrels that have never been pointed at anything but paper targets at 100 yds shooting nothing but 5 shot groups, 10 shot groups, 50 sometimes even 100 shot groups just for the fun of amusing my intellectually challenged mind. Maybe I have a repetitive disorder, anyway it floats my boat, I dunno why....whatever.

I haven't tested every load and brass combination as that would number in the millions if not billions. You wouldn't live long enough to test them all. You cannot ever know whether you have found the absolute best load for a particular gun, you would only know which load of those loads tried was best before the barrel was fried, then the game starts all over again with a new barrel with which the load that worked 'best' out of the loads tried in the previous one might prove to be dismal in the new one. What I can tell you is that there is no component or brass that is the 'best' over the spectrum of all loads and all rifles. Most any combination can be taylored to work in an individual rifle but because it works in one rifle does not mean it will be 'best' in another or even close.

What everyone here is trying to tell you is that no component can be labelled 'best'. Any component used can be found and labelled 'best' within the parameters of a such a limited accuracy test. The only conclusion that can be drawn from my test is that of those components used in that particular load the only difference being the brass, winchester out performed all others. Do you think I could make a conclusion from my own test of 7 different types of brass with 10 5 shot groups of each brass fired with winchester brass coming out on top and state it is the 'best' brass bar none. I'm not so dumb to even begin to assume so. So now all that brass is worn out and I start with new lots of brass with the same load, repeat test exactly and suddenly the Lake City brass is 'best'. So then I wear that brass out and start with 7 lots of new brass, retest and now this new lot of remington brass is second from the bottom, LC is bottom and Federal is now the 'best' yet throughout that entire series of tests Lapua stayed in second place.........hmmmm....talk about consistency..........I think I'll tune a load to that nicely consistent Lapua ............:D
 
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Wow

Since I am just a Benchrest Shooter, (literally, I own only one non competition Rifle), I guess there is not much I could add to this discussion.
Except to say that if Lapua suddenly decided to quit making brass, many of our extreme accuracy programs would have to go back to square one.........jackie
 
Jackie

Better watch out. I bet VG will tell you that he has a stock remington 700 that will out shoot your custom bench gun and possibly your rail gun,and with remington brass to boot!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:eek:
 
Last year I purchased five boxes of Rem 17 Fireball 20 Gr bullet ammo. Before reloading I full sized the cases with a Redding + .006 shell holder. The neck and flash holes were deburred, the primer pockets uniformed in depth, and the case length cut back to 1.403 inches. The 100 empty cases then were seperated into groups of 20 ea. by weight. The lightest case was 81.5 grains with the heavyest at 83.0 grains. 20 ea cases were 81.5 thru 82.0 grains , 3 groups of 20 ea were 82.1 to 82.4 grains ,and the heavyest group of 20 cases were 82.5 thru 83.0 grains. The different groups may then indicate differing internal capacity dimensions. Since retiring ten years ago I have seperated Remington , Winchester, and Federal cases by weight. Remington is no better or worse than Winchester or Federal brass.
 
It's very hard not to have a Lapua

I don't shoot in any competitions, but if Lapua makes the brass I'll have it.

Shoot better
Peter
 
This is unbelievable. Somebody does some testing to see how different headstamps would shoot in his gun. That's all. Then he writes about it. He's not trying to prove anything, it's just to see more what his results are. But what happens? Every damned authority has their own idea about what the point was and what was really proved.....72 posts nitpicking and criticizing the article. Only on this website would that happen. You guys are unbelievable.
 
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