Brass Brands vs. Accuracy - Article

[beemanbeme]

Very good post Vicvanb.
One's application and reasonable expectations can play a large part in where you go with your reloading and components. We've learnt a lot about hyper-accuracy from Bench Rest but the fact remains that you don't need a .1 rifle to kill a Pdog. VG just couldn't help himself.

 

[Marc]

this is a personal attack on you! .

....somebodys got a bee in their bonnet........

 

[lilabner]

I know Remington brass holds less water than Winchester brass and assume there are minor differences involving other brass. If you used the same powder charge with different makes of brass, load density was modified and your rifle preferred the density the Remington brass created. A minor adjustment in the powder charge might result in a different brass shooting as well or perhaps better.

 

[tylerw02]

I know Remington brass holds less water than Winchester brass and assume there are minor differences involving other brass. If you used the same powder charge with different makes of brass, load density was modified and your rifle preferred the density the Remington brass created. A minor adjustment in the powder charge might result in a different brass shooting as well or perhaps better.

That's too simple. Is the superior quality of Remington brass to all others. Just ask VG and gun rag writers.

 

[davejones]

......guys, wouldn't it be easier if we just believe everything that we read?

varmintguy, there is a chance that your "exclamation point" key is somehow sticking at the end of almost every sentence that you type.

 

[DR4NRA]

Gut buster

......guys, wouldn't it be easier if we just believe everything that we read?

varmintguy, there is a chance that your "exclamation point" key is somehow sticking at the end of almost every sentence that you type.

Laughed my hiney off on this, espescially the first line. Heres my take on this

1. Gun writers ALWAYS state nothing but the facts. ( yeah right)
2. Gun writers and Editors NEVER, EVER embellish anything to sell a magagzine. ( its the gospel truth)
3. Buck a piece brass will ALWAYS outperform a 33 cent piece of brass. ( If ya believe the manufacturers, same as #2)
4. And this is the most important: Any critter from elk, deer, coyotes, PDogs, and crows are so much happier to be shot with a 5000.00 dollar rifle, and 3.50 a piece Cartridge than they are with a 600.00 rifle, and 50 cent cartridge. Ya know its a status thing.

 

[VarmintGuy]

I was NOT surprised to see that exactly NO ONE was able to or even tried to answer my direct question - "just how MANY 5 shot groups does a factory/hybrid Rifle shooter need to shoot before he can believe the results of his brass/accuracy testing"?
Like someone else inferred "lots of snobbishness and elitism here"
- but substance is definitely lacking!

BeeManBee: I take no glee what so ever in the results of the authors testing - I do take it as vindication that indeed very good accuracy is obtainable with modestly priced brass!
I know - I done it! Many many times!
THAT is my contention - nothing more nothing less.

Tylerw02: You are showing your intellectual bankruptcy and ignorance now!
If you need to make up things to TRY to enhance your contention then you, your contention and your tactics are worthless!
Specifically I request you prove up on your contention where you claim I posted that Remington brass is "superior to other brands"!
I have never said or posted any such thing as you contend.
Remember, things you say or post in public are best to be truthful or NOT said or posted to begin with!
Please correct your contention to reflect truthfulness.
Anecdotal evidence is still evidence - is it not?
And if you care to disbelieve it you should have some evidence to support your reason for doing so - should you not?
Your untruths have been noted along with your inability to answer my simple question (how many groups...?)!

DaveJones: How about you? Any substance to your elitism? How many groups do you shoot in your factory/hybrid Rifles to ascertain the best brass, accuracy wise, for said Rifles?
Or is it possible all you have to offer are smart alec type remarks?

If ANY ONE, has any question, as to the snobbishness and elitism of MANY of the posters on this board than simply compare the snobbish and elitist attitudes demonstrated here as compared to the exact same thread I initiated on 24 Hour Campfire and the responses there!
It's laughable!
Elitism and snobbishness have no place on a sportsmans forum!

A few here make a big deal out of my use of an exclamation point and yet can NOT answer a simple question - a question designed to elicit information and experiences that are worthy to be shared on an accuracy minded shooters forum!
Snobs - indeed!!!

Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

 

[tylerw02]

Tylerw02: You are showing your intellectual bankruptcy and ignorance now!
If you need to make up things to TRY to enhance your contention then you, your contention and your tactics are worthless!
Specifically I request you prove up on your contention where you claim I posted that Remington brass is "superior to other brands"!
I have never said or posted any such thing as you contend.
Remember, things you say or post in public are best to be truthful or NOT said or posted to begin with!
Please correct your contention to reflect truthfulness.
Anecdotal evidence is still evidence - is it not?
And if you care to disbelieve it you should have some evidence to support your reason for doing so - should you not?
Your untruths have been noted along with your inability to answer my simple question (how many groups...?)!

The question was answered by somebody else. 30 is the bare minimum for evaluation, statistically speaking.

You can cry all you want and try to spin all you want. But statistically speaking, the entire article is complete hogwash and deep down you know it.

 

[VarmintGuy]

Tylerw02: I am a man and not prone to "crying" over someone elses lies!
Now I gave you one chance to prove your worth and you failed miserably!
I expected more of you!
Again I ask you to correct your lie.
Lying to promote ones post is simply morally and intellectually bankrupt!
And its especially immature when anyone can easily verify your untruths!
I notice you can not refute my contention in any mature or substantive way!
I know THAT, "deep down"!
And again - choose to ignore this if your elitism mandates it - but I have shot many , many, MANY excellent groups with my factory/hybrid Rifles using less than premium types of brass!
The authors tests add lots of creedence to MY contentions -NONE to yours!
I suggest you suck it up and apologize for your shortcomings and correct your previous posts - thats what a man and a sportsman would do.
Somehow I expect YOU won't.
Shame that - this forum should expect better than you are capable of it seems.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

 

[tylerw02]

Tylerw02: I am a man and not prone to "crying" over someone elses lies!
Now I gave you one chance to prove your worth and you failed miserably!
I expected more of you!
Again I ask you to correct your lie.
Lying to promote ones post is simply morally and intellectually bankrupt!
And its especially immature when anyone can easily verify your untruths!
I notice you can not refute my contention in any mature or substantive way!
I know THAT, "deep down"!
And again - choose to ignore this if your elitism mandates it - but I have shot many , many, MANY excellent groups with my factory/hybrid Rifles using less than premium types of brass!
The authors tests add lots of creedence to MY contentions -NONE to yours!
I suggest you suck it up and apologize for your shortcomings and correct your previous posts - thats what a man and a sportsman would do.
Somehow I expect YOU won't.
Shame that - this forum should expect better than you are capable of it seems.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

VarmintGuy, show me where I have lied. You cannot. Furthermore, you've really proven your character, or lack thereof, in calling somebody a liar. You proven just who you are. Now I understand why so many people express such a rotten opinion of you on these forums. I suppose they already knew your character.

Shame on you.

Furthermore, you can't read. Maybe if I said READ WHAT I'VE WRITTEN and used more explanation points!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Then "maybe" with some quotations, you'd understand!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

For the final time, nobody said one couldn't shoot great groups with less than premium brass. I've shot thousands of varmints and groups with less than premium brass. You still cannot look at things objectively. The writer doesn't have any statistically significant results. His results are completely anecdotal and doesn't suggest ANY brand of brass is superior or even more capable than any other. His results are STATISTICALLY INSIGNIFICANT. Did you have the intellectual honesty to read the links I gave you? I bet your character would prevent such a thing, after all, you can't get an old dog to do anything but howl at cars and lay on the porch, let alone learn a new trick.

This is my last post on the subject and answer this question with all honesty:

When you work up a load, do you do it with a single head-stamp or do you mix them all up and use the same load? Do you use the same load with identical results in all head-stamps?

If you can answer that question with some degree of honesty, you'll start to understand my, as well as numerous others', distaste in the author in question's methodology.

 

[vicvanb]

I was NOT surprised to see that exactly NO ONE was able to or even tried to answer my direct question - "just how MANY 5 shot groups does a factory/hybrid Rifle shooter need to shoot before he can believe the results of his brass/accuracy testing"?
Like someone else inferred "lots of snobbishness and elitism here"
- but substance is definitely lacking!

I answered your direct question--check post Number 36!!!!!!!!!!

 

[tylerw02]

I pointed it out to him. He doesn't care to read the answer. Statistics aren't that hard, but just like he couldn't read anything on the links, he won't read posts. Maybe his eyes are going in his hold age.

 

[VarmintGuy]

Tylerw02: My eyes are better than 20/20 in fact.
And don't resort to even more immature and juvenile tactics (like calling me names) to try to avoid notice of your posted lies!
Call me names if you want - but YOU can't call ME a liar!
Your avoidance of correcting your post is definitive - you will resort to lies to try to bolster your contentions!
That is now a finallity and a conclusion anyone can make!
And thats a shame.
Please make JUST ONE MORE post and correct your lie regarding me.
Or don't - and just live with your status!
Did you take the time to read the postings in the forum "I" referred you to?
An offline E-mail to me regarding you, just reffered to you as a lying, eletist snob and we got a good laugh out of that!
The purpose of this forum is not for name calling but in your case you have proven my correspondent correct, it appears!
Again I expected more of you.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

 

[tylerw02]

Tylerw02: My eyes are better than 20/20 in fact.
And don't resort to even more immature and juvenile tactics (like calling me names) to try to avoid notice of your posted lies!
Call me names if you want - but YOU can't call ME a liar!
Your avoidance of correcting your post is definitive - you will resort to lies to try to bolster your contentions!
That is now a finallity and a conclusion anyone can make!
And thats a shame.
Please make JUST ONE MORE post and correct your lie regarding me.
Or don't - and just live with your status!
Did you take the time to read the postings in the forum "I" referred you to?
An offline E-mail to me regarding you, just reffered to you as a lying, eletist snob and we got a good laugh out of that!
The purpose of this forum is not for name calling but in your case you have proven my correspondent correct, it appears!
Again I expected more of you.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Come on, VG, evaluate the facts, answer the questions, and point out where I have lied.

 

[Ackman]

There it is. VG can't go without demanding that someone prove something.

....to prove your worth



Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

And VG......you're such a conceited, pompous, overblown windbag, self-styled ex-purt. You turn every post into a boring diatribe. I wonder how anyone could stomach being around you.

 

[Roger T]

50 cent ammo

Yer in HIGH COTTON

 

[CWPINST]

If it were me doing the testing, I would be satisfied that the particular load combination using the Remington brass outperformed the Lapua, but again...SO WHAT??? It means nothing beyond that particular load in that particular rifle. Heck even the Mets won a World Series! From a statistical standpoint that folks can base decisions on, it proves nothing in general about Lapua or Remington brass. To think otherwise is pure folly. I think that is the point that many were trying to make.

 

[JJ-IA]

We should all count our lucky stars that Remington came out on top in this test.
Think about it. Do we want deer hunters and mall ninjas hording our BR capable brass?
Remington rules, long live Remington!
Spread the word.

 

[Boss Hoss 540]

You know the rag that published that article is really not worth reading IMHO and I like John but his publications are not for me..

 

[VarmintGuy]

Am I reading the following quotes correctly???

"For the final time, nobody said one couldn't shoot great groups with less than premium brass. I've shot thousands of varmints and groups with less than premium brass".

"Can Remington brass shoot good groups? Of course it can as you have already stated".

"I would be satisfied that the particular load combination using the Remington brass outperformed the Lapua"

Fellows, fellows, fellows (and liars and distorters!) it now appears I have WON some of you over to my original contention!
The above quotes "PROVE" it!
Please check my original post to verify from wherest I am coming!
And this - I will publicly state that, of the hundreds (literally hundreds!) of reloaders, competition shooters, Hunters, Varminters and plinkers I know and have known - I have never heard of even ONE of them testing all the brands of brass available for their factory/hybrid Rifles to the extent of shooting 30 (thirty!) five shot groups with each brand of brass available!
Wearing out your barrel testing is not a very "intelligent" or prudent thing to do!
Never even heard of anyone doing the 30 groups with every load and every brand of brass available, not once! And I am certain it is less than 1/10th of 1 percent of all shooters who may have done so!
So sloughing off the credibility and results of the authors findings in his article in Handloader Magazine as somehow that the author did not test every load possible with every brass available is just simply ludicrous!
I know shooters can obtain excellent accuracy with less than premium brass - I know because I have done it!
I have seen countless other shooters do it and therefore as I originally expressed in my initial posting - I feel vindicated for my use of and my sometimes (up til now!) tepid support for less than premium brass to obtain accuracy!
Another factor that MUST come into play these days is the simple reality that premium brass is not available in ALL calibers that factory/hybrid Rifles can be obtained in!
What's a shooter to do if Norma or LaPua does not make brass for their caliber?
I know what "I" do.
I use less than premium brass and still obtain excellent accuracy!
And one of the posters laments the WHOLE concept of the long lived and fine magazine that the article was published in as "a rag" and "not worth reading"!!!
Well I don't agree with everything published in every magazine but blanket condemnation like that of such a fine magazine and one that has been around so long is just elitism and snobbishness run on to its "nth degree"!
And for those of you concerned about me and wondering where I have been - I have been on an extended foray of Varmint Hunting, shooting, guntrading and entertaining out of state guests from New Hampshire, Illinois, Washington and Louisiana.
Rain yesterday and today have halted the trigger fun but it is due to resume tomorrow with two shooters from Florida.
So far I have not seen one piece of "premium brass" fed into a factory/hybrid Rifle in the last week!
Some very long shots were made (these require accuracy!) on Varmints during this time!
Maybe some of you not yet convinced "premium brass only" types are saying to yourselves, "I just don't know how it could be done" but the proof is the distant and dead Varmints.
I say thank goodness for non-premium brass and how well it can shoot!
As proven by the article in question from the excellent magazine Handloader.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy
PS: I am headed for my friends private range (complete with rain proof shooting shack!) this afternoon with a new Rifle I picked up a couple days ago its a Tikka T-3 in caliber 338 Federal. I have some Federal factory ammo to do barrel breakin with but do you guys think I should wait for Norma and LaPua to come out with 338 Federal brass before beginning my handload testing?
Or do you think I should buy some Norma 308 Winchester brass for $1.10 per piece or maybe buy some LaPua 308 Winchester brass for 62 cents per piece? (These prices do not include shipping and require large lot purchases from those "premium" brass suppliers!)
Or will I be able to obtain good accuracy with "non-premium" brass at a fraction of those brass costs?
I'll let you know.