Benchrest handicap

[KevinS]

Handicap

To add to my last post.

Make Sporter a real class. Limit to real factory actions. Rem,Win,Savage etc.
Limit the weight to reduce the advantage of heavy barrels. Limit stock width to even the
playing field. If they want to just shoot that class make the entry fee nominal.
Let the guys shoot their "super accurate" ARs. It won't take them long to figure things out.

F class is not as much fun. I shoot it. But their numbers are exploding. And, F Class ain't cheap.
You can still have a lot of fun learning your lessons on a pretty simple setup. If you had to start in F Open the sport would not be doing as well.

Kevin

 

[Chism G]

Is it about Winning?

When you have a Sport where the pinnacle of performance is the “Hall Of Fame’” and a World Benchrest Team, selected annually on the basis of performance, then you have to recognize and encourage those competitors who choose to take their Hobby/Sport to highest level.

once a Competitor achieves these established goals, there is nothing else to prove. There is no professional Benchrest Organization that offers a competitor a contractual agreement to display his/her skills on a paid to play basis.

Simply put,What I’m saying is, there are limited returns on the investments of time, energy and money that it takes to win.

Then there are the competitors, including myself, who make up about 80% of the organization.

The people who simply love the Sport. They have no clear cut expectations of achieving notoriety in the Sport. A good day at the Range, every now and then, is enough to fuel the addiction and cull the Bank Account.

I was handicapped when I walked in the Door, because I had never done it before. It wasn’t because of lack of cash. I traded for most of the equipment I needed to get started.

It takes a while to process all the advice that you get from people who are just trying to help.

Hall OF Famer, Don Geracy, told me, when I was getting started, that he shot Benchrest seven years before he won a single yardage.

I believe that Personal success in any sport, can be measured on expectations and how you choose to play the game.

I enjoy the Sport just as much as the best shooters that ever picked up a Rifle. I just do it my way.



Glenn

 

[Ian_Owen]

I'll see if i can say it again in plain english.
You will not get people to TRY br with a $40/50 entry fee.
If you want people to try a new sport, have them shoot right next to you at
your registered match, but in a CLUB class with a low fee.
The only club cost is targets. If you want to hand out club class
ribbons to show winners, still a low cost.
If you are too lazy or just do not care, do not get pissy as
your sport dies. Run a club br match, see if you get converts.
We are not talking about other sports so quit comparing apples to oranges.

As people have said the entry fee is a lot less than the cost of participating at a match, fuel, bullets powder, primers, barrel etc. If the entry fee is what is stopping you then as some have said perhaps you should look for a cheaper sport.............I've seen mountain bikes that cost more than all my shooting gear put together.

But out of interest what is the cost of entry fee that will allow YOU to compete at registered matches??
Where are you located and what would be a registered match YOU would like to compete at if the entry fees were affordable to you??

Registered Benchrest is not club competition, if you want to shoot club competition go and shoot at the club shoots Jackie runs.

 

[Tim Singleton]

sandiego
The last time I took my wife to the movies I spent almost 40 bucks

So your saying a full 8 hour day of registered competition with two classes of guns isn't worth the cost of a trip to the movies
I don't think we have to worry much about your opinions on the value we place on our competitions

I can't see how in the world they can do it for $ 40-$50 per gun and make anything

 

[Dave Coots]

Bingo

sandiego
The last time I took my wife to the movies I spent almost 40 bucks

So your saying a full 8 hour day of registered competition with two classes of guns isn't worth the cost of a trip to the movies
I don't think we have to worry much about your opinions on the value we place on our competitions

I can't see how in the world they can do it for $ 40-$50 per gun and make anything

Good analogy Tim. 99.9% understand, and .1% never will. PS, stay away from the refreshment stand.

Later
Dave

 

[jackie schmidt]

sandiego


I can't see how in the world they can do it for $ 40-$50 per gun and make anything

Tim, back when Region Matches drew 50+ shooters, clubs could make a profit. But now, most Region Matches are drawing an average 25-30 shooters, (I might be wrong on this), so you do good to break even.

As I said before, Tomball Gun Club's attitude is we can continue putting on Region Registered Matches as long as they don't cost the club any money.

 

[Ian_Owen]

Good analogy Tim. 99.9% understand, and .1% never will. PS, stay away from the refreshment stand.

Later
Dave

Seems we have the .1% involved in this thread

 

[MRL]

I'll see if i can say it again in plain english.
You will not get people to TRY br with a $40/50 entry fee.
If you want people to try a new sport, have them shoot right next to you at
your registered match, but in a CLUB class with a low fee.
The only club cost is targets. If you want to hand out club class
ribbons to show winners, still a low cost.
If you are too lazy or just do not care, do not get pissy as
your sport dies. Run a club br match, see if you get converts.
We are not talking about other sports so quit comparing apples to oranges.

You tell people not to get "pissy" but you repeat the same $40/50 line constantly. You were asked what price YOU would be willing to pay to play, still no answer. Why? Do you actually shoot club events or are you a person who is more than willing to find fault with others but wont shoot? You act like you have the answers why don't you share them with us?

 

[Ian_Owen]

Duh..the subject was how to get people involved. Most people do not jump in to the top of any sport.
They start small and local and work up.
And Jackie has an excellent plan IMHO.
i have little ( not no) interest in registered matches,
club is fine with me,
but again you have missed the big picture..how to get them started.

You keep going on that the fees are too expensive and are stopping competitors getting involved so answer the question, What is the $$$ figure you would pay or think is acceptable to shoot Registered Benchrest matches.

You have given enough negative opinions about what is too expensive but you haven't contributed even 1 positive input as to what entry fee is acceptable.


Now going back to your post below which is on the first page of this thread

I would think from my post you would have a clue.
I DO NOT SHOOT REGISTERED MATCHES.
I DO SHOOT CLUB MATCHES
I see no justification for the fees listed
for the "privilege" of shooting a registered match.
What does my (lack) of participation have to do with it ?.


It is obvious from the above post you are saying that "Registered Benchrest" match fees are too expensive, so tell us what is an acceptable "Registered Benchrest" match fee.

Just please answer the questions, or better yet go out and run some registered Benchrest matches and show us how to "Grow" the sport using "your" way of running Registered Benchrest matches.

I too would like to see the sport grow, so sandiego1948 go out and lead by example, if it works others will follow.

Ian

 

[linekin]

Coming from a rimfire benchrest background I decided to try SR BR this season. Attended my 1st mach earlier this month & was elated at how cheap the match was. $15 for the day compared to $25-$30 in most rimfire matches I attend.
Cost wasn't ever really a consideration for why I decided to try CF. Its the people who got me interested that made me take the plunge. And to me that's what the shooting sports are about. The people.
There was another new guy with a factory gun there who I shared a bench with. He shot VFS with the rest of us & took his lumps. He was a little taken back with the equipment we use but had a great time & vowed he'd be back. Hopefully next time he'll bring a friend.

Keith

 

[adamsgt]

your choice to spent 40 bucks..cause it can be done for a lot less.
( i will not pay to see liberal hollywierd productions...diff subject)
again the subject is how to get people started..they will not even try when the cost to shoot their
best hunting rifle is $50.
it is not about me..it is about how to grow YOUR sport.

I find myself in the weird place of agreeing with you, to a point. I came into this game from years of Palma and Fullbore competition so I already had a lot of the gear needed and had sufficient funds to buy a couple of quality used guns to start. First a LV 6ppc on a Grizzly II action and later a HV 6ppc on a Bat action. If I were a guy with little to no match experience and a typical Remchester hunting rifle and factory ammo, I doubt I'd want to pony up $50 to dip my toe into the BR game. Another aspect of the money is that even if you get some of these guys to shoot at least once at a lower fee, how many are you likely to capture after their first experience? A few at best. It's the desire to compete with yourself first and others later that is the deciding factor in staying with this game. I'm still competing with me and once in a while I luck into a small group win that's frosting on the cake. Then, of course, there's the people. I almost backed out of going to the Cactus this year as it's a long lonely trip for an old fart like me. But I knew I would be in the midst of a host of spectacular people and that was the deciding factor to go. I was certainly justified in that and I enjoyed myself immensely. Watching Walt Berger shoot as well as he does at his age keeps me telling myself that at 76 I'm still not too old to enjoy this game.

 

[Tim Singleton]

Maybe I've been thinking about it single sighted
I wouldn't have co sidered wasting $50 to enter and shoot my remage varmint/hunting rig.
After a few years of shooting against myself with a ok beginning set up did I dare to enter a match.
So I agree most aren't going to spend 50 bucks to get trounced with their hunting rifle.
The issue is obviously far more complex than just match fees
Most people anymore have no idea what I'm taking about when I say benchrest. That's the problem

 

[jackie schmidt]

Most people anymore have no idea what I'm taking about when I say benchrest. That's the problem

Tim, the problem is the vast majority of shooters think of "benchrest" with the small b. That is going to the Range and shooting as small of a group as you can with a given Rifle. They do not realize what we are talking about when we write "Benchrest" with a capital B, which entails considerable more.

 

[jackie schmidt]

I might add that most clubs will not shoot non Registered Group Club Matches because they do not have a moving backer system.

Any Benchrest Shooter will tell you that an Aggregate shot without moving backers is worthless.

Hense, , most Clubs that put on non Registered, ( and less expensive), Club Matches shoot Score.

So, of you want to shoot Group, and want it to mean anything, your only choice is NBRSA or IBS Registrd Matches.

 

[Hunter]

I might add that most clubs will not shoot Group Club Matches because they do not have a moving backer system.

Any Benchrest Shooter will tell you that an Aggregate shot without moving backers is worthless.

Hense, , most Clubs that put on non Registered, ( and less expensive), Club Matches shoot Score.

So, of you want to shoot Group, and want it to mean anything, your only choice is NBRSA or IBS Registrd Matches.

Jackie, I don't agree with your "worthless" and "want it to mean anything" comments. No, such an aggregate won't set any national record (nor will a non-registered score aggregate) -- but, surely, that's not the main thing folks are looking for when they go to a shoot. I've enjoyed shooting group, club matches at two different clubs -- and the lack of a moving backer system is not even a consideration.

I wonder if registered matches would suffer much of a "hit" if most of the trophies were eliminated (thus, reducing some of the cost).

 

[jackie schmidt]

Jackie, I don't agree with your "worthless" and "want it to mean anything" comments. No, such an aggregate won't set any national record (nor will a non-registered score aggregate) -- but, surely, that's not the main thing folks are looking for when they go to a shoot. I've enjoyed shooting group, club matches at two different clubs -- and the lack of a moving backer system is not even a consideration.

I wonder if registered matches would suffer much of a "hit" if most of the trophies were eliminated (thus, reducing some of the cost).

Back in the '90's, we used to shoot Club Matches at the American Shooting Center Complex on the far West Side of Houston.

Glenn had a good crowd, and quite a few shooters were known for shooting some great Aggs.

But, many would never show up at any of the Registered Matches at Tomball, New
Braunfels, Lafayette, or even the two they had at American Shooting Center. Go figure.

As for the Trophys, that is the biggest cost of a Club holding a Registered Match. I would be satisfied with just a Ribbon, like we award at our Club Matches. I pay about $4 a piece for them.

As for the picture, that is one of our Ribbons I award at our Tomball Club Matches on my wife's right shoulder.

We went to a Halloween Party at Larry and Beth Deeses last October, and I took her as my "Trophy Wife"

As you can see, I definetally "married up"

 

[Chism G]

Fear Of Losing

One thing I've noticed when trying to attract people to a competitive Sport is the “fear of losing syndrome”. Benchrest is no different from any competitive Sport. Even the best sometimes have bad days. A true competitor understands this realty.

I know people who have access to the necessary equipment and the money, to join the fun and help keep the Sport alive. They are, however, reluctant to do so because they are afraid of finishing Dead ass last in the competition. The experts call it “fear of losing syndrome”. I call it LOB, “Lack Of Balls”.

The Link below, to my Favorite local Public Shooting Range will shed some light on their daily range fees. I shot Pistol and Rifle, a while back, at least twice a week at this Range. The first Benchrest Shooter I ever met,I met him and his Dad at this Range.. That was 17 years ago.

http://elmfork.com



Glenn

 

[mwezell]

Serious question here and I'm not out to kick any hornet's nests...

I've never been to a Super Shoot but know the hoopla and prestige of winning is huge. But, it's unregistered and match fees are $120 for 2 days, $240 for 4 days and $120 for Unlimited. Why?

FWIW, I'm not one of the folks complaining about match fees. I want and expect ranges and match officials to be supported for their efforts. In fact, I think and have stated that the clubs and match officials should be better supported. They are the #1 first requirement for our sport..period. My opinion, as it relates to this thread, is that match fees in general are not the problem with participation.

However, I've run registered matches and have a pretty good idea of what's involved and the costs. If $30/day is reasonable enough for a match with 20-30 shooters, why isn't it enough for a big match?..unregistered, at that? Lets see...$240 x 300 shooters = $72,000.

That's a lot of money for awards!

 

[Hunter]

Mike, here's my take on your question of "Why?" -- you answered it in your first sentence. I don't know, but it wouldn't surprise me if it cost more to go to a UK basketball game than it does to an Eastern KY basketball game. Why do you suppose? Someone has done an excellent job of creating "hoopla and prestige," and they're reaping the financial rewards.

 

[mwezell]

Mike, here's my take on your question of "Why?" -- you answered it in your first sentence. I don't know, but it wouldn't surprise me if it cost more to go to a UK basketball game than it does to an Eastern KY basketball game. Why do you suppose? Someone has done an excellent job of creating "hoopla and prestige," and they're reaping the financial rewards.

I'm sure that's at least in part the case. I also think they likely have a lot of costs, over and above what a local registered match does, for such a large match. Anyone know more?

As I said, I want clubs that support our game to do well and continue supporting our game. So, if people choose to support it at that price, I'm happy for everyone on both sides of this.

The only reasons that I use that shoot as an example is that it carries higher than typical fees and is unregistered. Obviously, it's well attended, which negates a couple of points made in this discussion, to some degree. Those being match fees being too high and justifying price by being registered.