Benchrest For Me?

Phil
On sunday make sure you talk with Gary Childs,Jerry Tierney and Pete White while your there as they all shoot F-Class.You might also ask them about the tactical matches held there as they live close by and know some of the shooters and whats involved.I live 3 hours away so I don't frequent that range like those guys do.
Lynn
 
Phil3 said:
Mike,

My version of expected top AR accuracy is generally repeatable 5 shot .250" groups. Not sure I can shoot that well.
- Phil
Click to expand...

Phil,
What does "generally repeatable" mean ? I would think if the average AR would shoot regular 1/4" 5 shot groups we would see a lot of them at Bench Rest matches.
 
Dick Grosbier said:
Phil,
What does "generally repeatable" mean ? I would think if the average AR would shoot regular 1/4" 5 shot groups we would see a lot of them at Bench Rest matches.
Click to expand...

Meaning not a once in a lifetime 3 shot group that is .250". I would like to see 5 shots grouping in the .250" area more often than not, at 100 yards. From what I have seen 100 yard BR guns can shoot much better than that. ??? Several people knowledgeable in ARs said .250" should be achievable with a good shooter, and hand loaded ammo that the gun likes. This is not to say it would deliver this kind of accuracy every time. Everything would have to right and come together. Krieger said the gun should easily do 1/2", but while their barrel could do better, the shooter is the big unknown. They asked about the other components in the gun, and felt, as others did, that it will shoot about as accurately as the platform can (not withstanding the twist issue).

We will see. I looked at what .250" looks like, and that IS really small. I may be unrealistic here. ??? I may need a person more experienced than I to see what it can really do. I can list what else is in the gun, if that helps show why it should be accurate.

- Phil
 
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phil,
on the subject of accuracy and the ar, i am i known irritant on this board. i have three benchrest dedicated ar's. the 223 mentioned, an 6ppc that has not worked out for me and will soon be a 6 beggs,and a 308 win br. the 223 has been shot over yrs testing lots of stuff, but finally got sub .2. the ar10/308 br is a shooter..its small group is a 0.116.....

these are not hand held ar's. these are custom br ar's. luepold 36x scopes, free float tubes with 3" flats.

there is a lot of hype out there about what can be done with an ar....most of it is just fluff.
for a gas operated 20"/16" rifle 0.5 moa is very good and better than most could use in the rifle.
the only advantage of the 22" bbl you have is that it can be rechambered when it wears out. make a 16 or 20 out of it.

it should not cost anywhere near 1000 to make another upper.....shop around... mike in co
 
Impressive groups! I would like to know the configuration of these guns, especially the AR10, as I am accumulating parts for it.

For my rifle, it will not be hand held, will use a high mag scope (for the distance I am shooting), a free float tube, and when in rests, using flats fore and aft.

I realize there is a lot of fluff out there, it is why I contacted professionals on various AR topics, such as White Oak, Krieger, Compass Lake, etc. I paid little attention to an unknown shooter making fantastic claims.

I opted for the 22" because of rechambering, recrowning, and also, just because I preferred the longer look. Weight does not matter for my purposes.

The $1000 price tag is arrived at with the following:

Krieger barrel $340
Barrel chambering by Krieger $100
SunDevil upper receiver $175
Young Mfg Bolt Assembly $145
Charging Handle $25
Evolution Gun Works gas block $50
Gas Tube $15
JP Rifles tubular free float handguard $143

Total $993

Your comments are welcome, not an irritant to me...

- Phil
 
Phil:
If you want to start in Fclass without spending a lot of money I would suggest Buying an upper from White Oak Precision. You can use the lower you already have. John Holliger can make you an upper to use on it with a scope for well under $1000. If you want to go with an "off the shelf" upper in 223 from White Oak Armament you can get a good one in 223 to use for F Class target rifle, F/TR, for around $700. F/TR is shot using a bipod instead of a front rest. You would want to get a good bipod. You should be able to get set up easily with everything you need for under $1000.

Another relatively cheap alternative would be to go with a Savage Fclass rifle in 6mmBR or F/TR rifle in either 223 or 308. The rifle would run around $1300. You would still need a good scope and bipod or rest.

Anyway, Best wishes. You're on your way to a really great hobby/sport. I'm sure you already know it is addictive and can get expesinve if you are not careful.
 
Phil3 said:
The $1000 price tag is arrived at with the following:

Krieger barrel $340
Barrel chambering by Krieger $100
SunDevil upper receiver $175
Young Mfg Bolt Assembly $145
Charging Handle $25
Evolution Gun Works gas block $50
Gas Tube $15
JP Rifles tubular free float handguard $143

Total $993

Your comments are welcome, not an irritant to me...

- Phil
Click to expand...

an upper is an upper for the most part....no need for a trick name...a 100 upper works as well.
carrier/bolts are tuff tight now, but should be 125
16-20 bucks for a charging handle
any gas block...25.30 bucks
jp makes fine handguards...but a dpms will work at 60 bucks or so.
but its your money

a reamer from krieger is gona be a "stock" compromise design. for short range, a short throat.

mike in co
 
JCummings said:
Phil:
If you want to start in Fclass without spending a lot of money I would suggest Buying an upper from White Oak Precision. You can use the lower you already have. John Holliger can make you an upper to use on it with a scope for well under $1000. If you want to go with an "off the shelf" upper in 223 from White Oak Armament you can get a good one in 223 to use for F Class target rifle, F/TR, for around $700. F/TR is shot using a bipod instead of a front rest. You would want to get a good bipod. You should be able to get set up easily with everything you need for under $1000.

Another relatively cheap alternative would be to go with a Savage Fclass rifle in 6mmBR or F/TR rifle in either 223 or 308. The rifle would run around $1300. You would still need a good scope and bipod or rest.

Anyway, Best wishes. You're on your way to a really great hobby/sport. I'm sure you already know it is addictive and can get expesinve if you are not careful.
Click to expand...

The White Oak option is a possibility, but do you think the Savage F class would do better (accuracy)? Would the F/TR class be a bit more accommodating to a new shooter in terms of cost and exotic calibers? I have a Harris BRMS (swivel) 6" - 9" bipod, so hopefully that would work.

I spoke to Ed Eckhoff today, a person referred to me who knows all about F-Class. Ed gave me lots of good info and like what I am hearing. He said come to a match, see what others are shooting, talk to people, before buying anything.

- Phil
 
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mike in co said:
an upper is an upper for the most part....no need for a trick name...a 100 upper works as well.
carrier/bolts are tuff tight now, but should be 125
16-20 bucks for a charging handle
any gas block...25.30 bucks
jp makes fine handguards...but a dpms will work at 60 bucks or so.
but its your money

a reamer from krieger is gona be a "stock" compromise design. for short range, a short throat.

mike in co
Click to expand...

Mike, perhaps a bit of an explanation on the choice behind some of my parts is in order.

SunDevil upper: Heavier built, and wanted that for the heavy barrel. Further, these are used by a very experienced AR builder, who pointed out that the barrel mating face is often not square with the bolt bore on many other brands, some some substantially out of whack. SunDevils he said, are better than most. I checked mine with a tool, and found it absolutely dead-on.

It has been found that set screw type gas blocks can slightly deform the bore. I selected a type that evenly applies pressure around the bore to avoid that.

The JP was selected because of the small diameter (2.0"). For BR, any free float handguard will work, as you indicated.

Still, your total edited costs are $200 less than mine. However, I am willing to invest in the parts I really want or think will contribute to accuracy.

I would want a Krieger blank chambered by someone else for optimal precision. Not sure what that would cost, but used the $100 Krieger had as a value.

Thanks for your input.

- Phil
 
JCummings said:
Phil:
If you want to start in Fclass without spending a lot of money I would suggest Buying an upper from White Oak Precision. You can use the lower you already have. John Holliger can make you an upper to use on it with a scope for well under $1000. If you want to go with an "off the shelf" upper in 223 from White Oak Armament you can get a good one in 223 to use for F Class target rifle, F/TR, for around $700. F/TR is shot using a bipod instead of a front rest. You would want to get a good bipod. You should be able to get set up easily with everything you need for under $1000.

Another relatively cheap alternative would be to go with a Savage Fclass rifle in 6mmBR or F/TR rifle in either 223 or 308. The rifle would run around $1300. You would still need a good scope and bipod or rest.

Anyway, Best wishes. You're on your way to a really great hobby/sport. I'm sure you already know it is addictive and can get expesinve if you are not careful.
Click to expand...

The White Oak option is a possibility, but do you think the Savage F class would do better (accuracy)? Would the F/TR class be a bit more accommodating to a new shooter in terms of cost and exotic calibers? I have a Harris BRMS (swivel) 6" - 9" bipod, so hopefully that would work.

I spoke to Ed Eckhoff today, a person referred to me who knows all about F-Class. Ed gave me lots of good info and like what I am hearing.

- Phil
 
I have a RRA rifle set up for Service rifle with a Kreiger barrel, floated ect.
A discipline I though I would pursue (never did) . Ended up replacing the upper and using it like a bench gun (standard stock/handguards). I was really happy with it getting a rare .250 (5) shot group but typical .5-.6 at 100 yds.
( waiting for ideal conditions ) Im sure in a BR match environment it be a joke .
This is vs a true bench rifle that is capable of .2 all day under the same conditions . Apples and Oranges I guises .
I still like knowing I have a the most accurate semi-auto . (for its family)
Adam
 
One of the flies in the ointment in determining the accuracy potential of a well built AR is that I have never seen anyone that was shooting one using a set of wind flags. (Of course this also applies to almost everyone that does not shoot short range Benchrest.) It is simply a fact that if one is going to consistently reach the quarter inch mark with any rifle some way to determine what the wind is doing between the rifle and target is needed. Typically, shooters will discount this idea, saying that they only test with the wind is not blowing or if a varmint shooter, that there are no flags in the field. Without flags, consistently shooting under 1/2" is not going to happen. Given this, we really don't know what many rifles are capable of.
 
Boyd Allen said:
One of the flies in the ointment in determining the accuracy potential of a well built AR is that I have never seen anyone that was shooting one using a set of wind flags. (Of course this also applies to almost everyone that does not shoot short range Benchrest.) It is simply a fact that if one is going to consistently reach the quarter inch mark with any rifle some way to determine what the wind is doing between the rifle and target is needed. Typically, shooters will discount this idea, saying that they only test with the wind is not blowing or if a varmint shooter, that there are no flags in the field. Without flags, consistently shooting under 1/2" is not going to happen. Given this, we really don't know what many rifles are capable of.
Click to expand...

Good point. You pinpointed me saying some say they only shoot for accuracy when the wind is not blowing. Without flags, how would one know. I will say that the short 100 yard range I typically frequent, really is dead still a fair amount of the time. The place is surrounded by very tall trees and is tucked into a corner of the hills, and not a leaf or blade of grass is moving anywhere. Sometimes, it definitely gets breezy. I have never seen flags put up here, but will ask if I can do this. I can shoot my 22 rimfire there and perhaps learn more about managing the wind. With the 22RF, I can shoot all day doing this without spending much.

- Phil
 
matchman said:
I still like knowing I have a the most accurate semi-auto . (for its family)
Adam
Click to expand...

This is precisely what I hope to achieve with my AR15. You can see here what this platform or family is capable of. This round handles wind almost as well as a 6mmBR (see link).

- Phil
 
For 600-1000 yards, I'd get 1:8 twist barrel for 80gr VLD, SMK, and A-Max. Or 1:7 or 1:6.5 for 90gr VLD and SMK big boys.

I've read an BR article of the 90gr bullets getting ripped apart, and not sure this issue has been resolved. Plus they reported the pressures tear up the brass quickly.

For 300-600, 1:9 twist and 52-69gr match. Berger has some in other sizes.

For 100-200 only, 1:12 for 52-53gr match.

A guy that is winning our "informal" AR matches has Lilja 1:8 barrel and Timney single stage trigger. He is hitting .2's and 3's 5-shot groups. With my bone-stock DPMS bull barrel, I am in .4's with lots of loads tested. The .4's were with 52gr Sierra and .6 with 75gr Hornady BTHP. The DPMS is a 1:9 twist 20in barrel.

There is another post on here with AR trigger discussions. JP Rifles and Jard get good reviews for single stage, and Geissele for 2-stage. The Geissele has glass break on second stage in oz's.

I recommend a vented forearm. I have the stock DPMS and it is not vented, although it is free floated.

Loading block for single shot loading is legal and necessary. I get a good rhythm with mine, the bolt release, and brass catcher.

Brownell's has some nice bolt releases that you can operate with your trigger hand.

AA2230 is your friend. H322, Varget, R15. VV and Norma, but I've never used them.
 
Thanks! I am using a 1:9" Krieger bull barrel, which will mostly be used for 100 - 200 yards, but have resigned myself to the fact I will make the 4 hour round trip drive to shoot at longer ranges. I would like to see what my AR will do at 300 - 600 yards.

I am using the lightest Geissele trigger (Match Rifle), and stage one is at 2 lbs., stage 2 I have set to start, at 8 oz. It can go down to 4 oz. It does break amazingly well. For the price, it should do nothing less.

My JP Rifles handguard is free floated and vented. I like this small diameter (2.0") unit. Most are 2.25".

Thanks for the info on powders.

- Phil
 
Boyd Allen said:
One of the flies in the ointment in determining the accuracy potential of a well built AR is that I have never seen anyone that was shooting one using a set of wind flags. .
Click to expand...


i got flags...and i use them.....

mike in co
aka
ar10ar15man
 
Another issue with AR for bench is chewing your painfully prepped brass to pieces.

Mike in CO has a post about disabling the gas system.

Tubb 2000 is AR variant, albeit a bolt gun, that is widespread in prone shooting. 6XC looks like a great 1000 yard cartridge.
 
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