Benchrest For Me?

Phil
Has been invited to shoot my 65 pound heavygun at a 1000 yard match this sunday 9-27-09 in sacramento.If he can make it the gun was barreled by Jim Borden and has been shooting quite well lately.The rest system seperates into two pieces so it is legal and will have 100 pounds of lead shot added to its already 44 pound weight.
It sports a 12-42 Nightforce scope with a 1.5 ounce rigger on a 8.5 inch BAT action in a 45 pound aluminum stock with tracking rails.
As this will be his first match I will coach him and twist the 3 pound plus tuner to get the gun dialed in for the 1000 yard nationals.

Phil
I was in the same boat as yourself 11 years ago.I was a mildly successful trapshooter who got tired of the drama and decided to take the rifle shooting a little bit more seriously so we could extend our hunting rifles distances.
I attended a few shortrange matches with my wife and we were both very turned off by the shooters attitudes.We next attended a 50 Caliber match in Reno,Nevada and met the legendary Skip Talbot.I have shot 600 and 1000 yard benchrest ever since that day and very much enjoy the sport.
If you were to meet guys like Bill Shehane or the late Skip Talbot you would immediately like the sport.They are two of the great ambassadors of shooting.
If you can check out all the activities hosted at Sacramento.They have Tactical Matches that are extremely popular.They host Silhouette matches cowboy action matches F-Class matches and just about anything you can think of.
Lynn aka Waterboy
 
Lynn said:
Phil
Has been invited to shoot my 65 pound heavygun at a 1000 yard match this sunday 9-27-09 in sacramento.If he can make it the gun was barreled by Jim Borden and has been shooting quite well lately.The rest system seperates into two pieces so it is legal and will have 100 pounds of lead shot added to its already 44 pound weight.
It sports a 12-42 Nightforce scope with a 1.5 ounce rigger on a 8.5 inch BAT action in a 45 pound aluminum stock with tracking rails.
As this will be his first match I will coach him and twist the 3 pound plus tuner to get the gun dialed in for the 1000 yard nationals.

Phil
I was in the same boat as yourself 11 years ago.I was a mildly successful trapshooter who got tired of the drama and decided to take the rifle shooting a little bit more seriously so we could extend our hunting rifles distances.
I attended a few shortrange matches with my wife and we were both very turned off by the shooters attitudes.We next attended a 50 Caliber match in Reno,Nevada and met the legendary Skip Talbot.I have shot 600 and 1000 yard benchrest ever since that day and very much enjoy the sport.
If you were to meet guys like Bill Shehane or the late Skip Talbot you would immediately like the sport.They are two of the great ambassadors of shooting.
If you can check out all the activities hosted at Sacramento.They have Tactical Matches that are extremely popular.They host Silhouette matches cowboy action matches F-Class matches and just about anything you can think of.
Lynn aka Waterboy
Click to expand...

Lynn,

I will be at Sacramento on 9/27, at 7:45 am.

You said, "...As this will be his first match...". You mean I am actually competing!? Gulp. Or do you mean I will have the chance to fire off some sighter shots, or some other shooting that won't harm your chances? Lord knows, I do not want to be responsible for interfering in your performance. That said, I really need to know all shooting technique tips possible. My biggest concern will be hitting a neighboring target.

I will try to check out the various activities at Sacramento. I checked their website, and while I do not know what all the activities actually entail, find benchrest one of the more attractive disciplines. Is there no F-Class here?

- Phil
 
Phil3 said:
Could I ask how competition would make me a better shooter? I believe I am self motivated enough, and it is not hard for me to see or read somewhere what others have done and strive to do as well or better.

- Phil
Click to expand...

A Smart man learns from his mistakes and a Wise man learns from the mistakes of others.

Now I don't claim to be either, but actually attending a BR match and competing definitely reduces the learning curve:

Your forced to focus on conditions because your on the clock, no more of the I'll just wait till the wind aint blowing stuff.

If you park one out there is always someone there to ask "What the Hell happened" , remember these folks that are there (at a match) have the same interest in precision as yourself and most if asked will help.

You will learn better bench manners, just walk the line and look at all the different ways things are done to accomplish the same goal.

You will get to visit with some of the nicest people on the planet, while this one may not increase your skills it sure is nice to see friendly faces.

These are just a few things I myself have picked up from actually competing and once I started shooting in match conditions, I realized my "Private" practices were being done all wrong, no urgency, wasn't seeing the condition shifts as clear, didn't have same amount of focus and so on.

I am a rookie shooter and thought I had the world by the balls two years ago (before competing) now I feel like everything is "new" again

This is just my experience.
 
Very well said, and all sound points. I will keep these in mind this Saturday when at a 1000 yard match.

- Phil
 
Phil
You will be shooting at a registered NBRSA 1000 Yard Match.You won't be getting any records because your not signed up as a member but everything else remains the same.You will sight the gun in and fire all 3 heavygun targets.Figure on putting 50 rounds downrange and if you have ear and eye protection bring it.If you don't I have spare equipment for you but you must wear it for safety reasons.
As you know I want this to be a warm-up match for the nationals to set my tuner and placing means nothing at this match.I have 3 tuner settings that I want targets for so 2 of those targets won't be as good as the 3rd target.
Its not going to be possible to crossfire as once the gun is set-up it won't vary that much on the target.
I'll post a picture of it.
Lynn aka Waterboy
 
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Lynn,

I do not know the protocol at a match (not withstanding last year's visit). I ask that you just give me directions and I will do. I have ear muffs, regular and electronic (have not tried these out yet). I will bring the electronic in hopes of hearing more easily. I don't have formal shooting glasses, but do have safety glasses.

Thank you.

- Phil
 
well lets make this tuff on him....make it a retgistered match for him!

i'll pony up 5 bucks...sent to lynn....
see if we can get enough to make him a member on match day ?


mike in co
 
Phil
I will loan you my special never miss shooting glasses with lenses that match the targets color and don't worry about the protocol you'll do just fine.Remember we have 15 minutes to get you well adjusted.

Mike
Don't worry about a collection.I am going to do some tuner twisting so he could only win small group or set a world record for a single target.:D:eek:
I am going to use my best 100 yard setting my best 500 yard setting and what I hope is my best 1000 yard setting but will let the targets speak for themselves.
Waterboy
 
"I believe I am self motivated enough"

No matter how motivated you are or believe you are it is just human nature to try especially hard in competition. Also, as mentioned above, there are others right there to ask you questions about what went right or wrong and help you find the answer. As also mentioned you do not have the luxury of taking as much time as you want or resting if you're tired etc. In competition you have to do your best NOW, not when you happen to feel motivated. It also teaches you where your weaknesses are, helps you set goals and time lines (the next match comes along when it does whether you're ready for it or not), shows your progress in the results, and provides feed back for improvement etc. If necessary, just trust me and take it on faith you WILL improve your shooting skills faster if you compete. Not only that, shooting is more fun when you are competing. Too many people start out afraid to compete. They seem to think they will be picked on if they don't perform well. I and everyone else that I know has found exactly the opposite. Being with people you like, who share your enjoyment in shooting, who are happy to help you learn and improve, and are just as happy to see your progress or share in your down days just makes shooting much more fun. I mean really, if you go to the range by yourself and practice alone all day do you think that compares to going to a match with friends, sharing in the game, and sharing in your results and those of your friends? I would rather shoot at a match then just practice any day!

Also, as I mentioned before, different games teach different things. Benchrest is by far the best to teach you to perfect your loading skills and rifle tuning. It also makes you learn to read the wind and learn excellent trigger control. Smallbore and NRA highpower makes you learn to shoot from different positions. Regarding your AR you could make a second to shoot in competition or you could make a second upper and swap or adjust parts in the lower to meet competition requirements. (having two complete separate rifles is easier but not essential).

Anyway, it sure sounds like you already have a lot of people who are anxious to help you learn to shoot and help you get started in competition. I recommend you take advantage of it.

Happy shooting. James Cummings
 
I don't know where Lynn attended a short range match but in all of my years shooting every visitor gets assigned a bench and a whole lot more help than they need. they usually have their own stuff at the next match and talk about how much they love the BR community. I've shot every kind of match there is- bows, shotgun, IPSC, IDPA, etc- and I have never seen even 1/4 of the hospitality that is offered at a short range BR match. I have seen some new shooters show up that were real cocky and knew a whole lot more than we all did and they did get treated like Lynn said he did. they usually don't finish the match so their scores don't embarass us and hey I appreciate that;)
but if you go to a BR match you'll be welcomed with open arms. maybe some of those new shooters I've met the last few years can chime in and tell you how it really went.
 
Dusty
We didn't shoot at a shortrange match we just went there to look into it.Nobody said hello nobody offered us any advice and when my wife asked if she could take a picture of one of the guns that she thought looked pretty the guy covered it up with a jacket.
I would post her picture here but don't want to be in the dog house.She is a looker and everybody likes her.Skip Talbot at the FCSA Match introduced her to every shooter on the line and treated her like royalty.She took plenty of pictures that we still have today.
If it happened at only 1 match I would probaly be a shortrange benchrest shooter today.
Waterboy
 
OK Lynn, know I AM a total novice, and never shot anything close to 1000 yards before. To show you how much of a novice, 15 minutes to adjust exactly what? Shooting position, gun adjustment, some tips, etc..., or?

The tuner is for tweaking barrel harmonics and resulting point of impact changes?

- Phil
 
James,

You are right on competition improving the rate of skill development. I road raced motorcycles for a while, and it DID push me harder, but fortunately, BR does not punish the way the motorcycle did for over exuberance (read "crash").

I will admit I have some fear of competing, but not so much because of being picked on. For me, it is more a fear of doing something stupid, asking idiotic questions, etc.

While being with friends is fun, I am generally OK with shooting alone. I concentrate hard without distraction. Still, your points are well taken and have considerable merit, of which you can be assured, will be on my mind this Saturday.

I am not sure what bench or prone type competition would suit an AR based rifle. I thought about building another one in 6.5 Grendel or 6mmAR. Either of those should do well to 600 yards. Always been rather curious just how well I could shoot one of these (and an AR-10 in 260 Remington) at long distances.

James, thanks for your considerable effort in responding to me, and I will keep it in mind...this you may be confident of.

- Phil
 
Phil
I was referring to the 15 minutes we have from 7:45 until 8:00 when the line goes hot.
I'll set up the rest system on the bench and align it first.I'll then add the gun and make sure it is on the right target.Once its settled in and I put 100 pounds of lead shot on the rest we can remove the center section and make sure your adjustments are centered up so you have plenty of travel without having to loosen anything up.At that point we lock down 5 of the 6 feet and the two center post tensioners.
At this point it would take a miracle to get on the wrong target.We'll adjust the scope for parallax and see how bad the mirage is going to be as the temperature should be around 96 degrees.
We can strategize off forum on how to shoot your groups.
Once the stool is adjusted and your ammo is all set up we'll go over things one more time and the pits will let us know its a go.You now have 10 minutes to dial her in and your first shot should be on paper.
The match director will call the line and when the line goes hot again in 1 minute or less you have 6 minutes to get off your 10 rounds.
I am thinking the mirage is going to be very bad so we can discuss how to shoot in it as well.
On the tuner I have a 3 pound Fudd tuner on the gun and 3 settings that have produced very small groups at 100 and 500 yards.At 1000 yards I am not positive on the setting because conditions can influence the outcome.I will be doing further testing after the match at 1000 yards in the dark if necessary to dial it all in.
Waterboy
 
Phil3 said:
For me, it is more a fear of doing something stupid, asking idiotic questions, etc.
Click to expand...

Phil, please take this in the spirit it's intended..... "the only silly question is the one you don't ask."

:)

We are all ignorant, I for instance have no idea how to post a Google Earth destination to this site...... so I ASK. :) If anyone, anywhere, gigs you for asking a question the problem is THEIRS, not yours.

Enjoy yourself at the match.

And Lynn, Good On Ya' Mon!!! This is the perfect setup, you both win!

nice


al
 
Phil:
Your AR would be OK for NRA Higpower mid range prone matches with iron sites or F Class with a scope. Midrange prone is usually shot at 300, 500, &600 yards. Fclass is the same but with scope. Long range prone is shot at 800, 900, and 1000 yards. You could use the AR there as well. You would probably be at some disadvantage competing against dedicated bolt guns set up specifically for those disiplines but you would learn just as much and it is still fun.

I forgot to mention another advantage about learning from others is you do not have to repeat their mistakes. Just about everything that can be done has been tried already. Somethings work better than others. You do not have to go through trial and error in load development, techniques, or in equipment choices. Others have been there and done that. Getting advice from others can cut the learning curve dramatically and save you lots of time and money.
 
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James,

F-Class does rather look like my cup of tea. Although, so does benchrest. My AR was built for top accuracy in every respect, but the barrel selected is for short range. I opted for a Krieger, 22" long, .920" muzzle (and bigger than that all the way back), 1:9" twist, chambered on the tight side of SAAMI specs for 223 Remington, shooting 55 - 69 grain bullets. I went this way because the local range is 100 and 200 yards, and flat based bullets work well for this. A barrel change to 1:7.7" twist from Krieger would allow longer range. I have a call into the Sacramento club to see what they do on F-Class. I have thought about trying the AR using the 6mmAR (www.6mmar.com) or 6.5 Grendel round. If F-Class is something I really want to do, I recognize that to be competitive, I need a superior bolt gun. I am willing to do that.

I definitely get the impression that people have experimented with just about everything and not repeating these mistakes is certainly welcome. I have learned so much just reading here and on 6mmbr.com. Compared to what I knew a year ago, I am way ahead, yet there is so much more to know. I don't think any of my interests have presented such a vast body of knowledge that can be tapped into and learned.

- Phil
 
Phil:
The barrel length on your AR will certainly be OK for midrange. My AR15 service rifle has the regulation 20 inch barrel and shoots very well at 600 yards. You are a little limited by the 1:9 twist but what you loose in wind handling would give you a better education for wind reading skills. There is certainly no reason not to shoot it in midrange prione matches until you have somoething else to use.
 
Phil3 said:
James,

F-Class does rather look like my cup of tea. Although, so does benchrest. My AR was built for top accuracy in every respect, but the barrel selected is for short range. I opted for a Krieger, 22" long, .920" muzzle (and bigger than that all the way back), 1:9" twist, chambered on the tight side of SAAMI specs for 223 Remington, shooting 55 - 69 grain bullets. I went this way because the local range is 100 and 200 yards, and flat based bullets work well for this. A barrel change to 1:7.7" twist from Krieger would allow longer range. I have a call into the Sacramento club to see what they do on F-Class. I have thought about trying the AR using the 6mmAR (www.6mmar.com) or 6.5 Grendel round. If F-Class is something I really want to do, I recognize that to be competitive, I need a superior bolt gun. I am willing to do that.

I definitely get the impression that people have experimented with just about everything and not repeating these mistakes is certainly welcome. I have learned so much just reading here and on 6mmbr.com. Compared to what I knew a year ago, I am way ahead, yet there is so much more to know. I don't think any of my interests have presented such a vast body of knowledge that can be tapped into and learned.

- Phil
Click to expand...

you would have to list your version of "top accuracy".
a 1/9 twist bbl is a compromise twist....good for a bunch of bullets...not great with any one bullet.
br quality bullets in 22 cal are typically in the 52/53 gr wieght. twist for this is "normally" 1/14. my hart bbl'd ar is a 26" 1/14 and has a minspec 223 chamber with a short throat to shoot 52/53's. in over 5 yrs of shooting lots of powder, i have finally got under .2 with an odd lot of 8202.
your bbl maker was a great choice.
decide what you want to do before you build the next one. select a discipline and then buy/build an approriate rifle for it.

mike in co
 
Mike,

My version of expected top AR accuracy is generally repeatable 5 shot .250" groups. Not sure I can shoot that well.

I opted for the 1:9' twist because according to many sources, this would be a good twist for shooting flat based bullets in the 55 - 69 grain range, which I understood as a good weight for 100 - 200 yard shooting. I understand now, a slower twist (1:12" available from Krieger) and lighter bullets may have worked better for my needs. I may make another upper with a slower twist Krieger for $1000 and be optimized for short range.

You touched a nagging thought with your advice to decide what I wish to do, select a discipline, and build a rifle for it. I kept asking myself, if I want accuracy, why am I building an AR? It appears to me that all rifle owners, even handgun owners, are all trying to hit the target, but we clearly do not all opt for the best tool for that single objective. Portability, expense, costs, reliability, etc, and just how much we want something, all influence what we ultimately choose. This would most likely change if one expects to successfully compete.

For me, I just wanted an AR, before they were banned, to build my own, the way I wanted. But, I still had a strong bias to fine accuracy, and built the AR to do as well as possible in that area as possible, at the expense of weight, and cost. But, that is OK. I like tactical rifles and may do the same type of thing again, again with a bias toward accuracy.

That said, I know I am fixated on extreme accuracy enough to invest in a rifle that is purpose built for that objective. At this juncture, that is looking like 600 yard benched or F-Class.

- Phil
 
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