"Begg's type" stocks

[Charles E]

I checked the IBS rulebook -- quickly, I'll allow -- and saw no rules changes that would have permitted Gene Begg's or similar stocks. Am I missing something? The rules as I read them allow no attachments to the barrel (except a tuner), and any bedding block is restricted no more than 4 inches in front of the boltface.

This for IBS.

 

[Boyd Allen]

Barrel blocks usually attach barreled actions to one piece stocks, and one wonders if the intent of the rule writers was to exclude two piece stocks that have the forend attached to the barrel. I guess I will have to give up on my plans to campaign a highwall ;-) ( I expect that when the rule was written, no one, in his wildest dreams envisioned a competitive two piece stock.)

 

[Az_Speed]

I checked the IBS rulebook -- quickly, I'll allow -- and saw no rules changes that would have permitted Gene Begg's or similar stocks. Am I missing something? The rules as I read them allow no attachments to the barrel (except a tuner), and any bedding block is restricted no more than 4 inches in front of the boltface.

This for IBS.

Using Google, from another thread ...
06-01-2009 07:08 AM #10 Andy Shifflett

Registered User Join Date:Jun 2004
Location:harrisonburg va
Posts:99Beggs Stock
Just so everyone is clear:

The IBS group committee did not say the beggs stock was "legal". But due to the wording in the rule book we were unable to say without a doubt that it is "illegal" therefore it is being allowed in competition until a precise determination is made.


I couldn't find anything more current than this to see if things have changed.

 

[Wayne Shaw]

IBS allowed the use of the Beggs stock, last year, in the interest of "growing" the sport. I don't know if it has been extended into this year or not. One of the IBS guys will chime in I'm sure.

 

[333smitty]

Beggs Type Stocks

Using Google, from another thread ...
06-01-2009 07:08 AM #10 Andy Shifflett

Registered User Join Date:Jun 2004
Location:harrisonburg va
Posts:99Beggs Stock
Just so everyone is clear:

But due to the wording in the rule book we were unable to say without a doubt that it is "illegal" therefore it is being allowed in competition until a precise determination is made.

IMHO

This preliminary decision will probably remain the status quo untill someone starts to kick some serious butt with one at a registered match and hurts someone's feelings and in return files the first official protest. The protest will force the powers that be to rule on the legality of the "Beggs type" stocks in formal competition.

 

[skeetlee]

were can i see a pic of these stock? Im not sure what you fellas are talking about. Lee

 

[skeetlee]

I found it! Lee

 

[Dick Grosbier]

The IBS Executive Board of which I am a member, and Wayne Shaw was at the time a member, ruled that the Beggs stock was legal for use in HV/LV SP classes . That happened last year and nothing has changed on that decision. We were acting in response to a request for clarification from an IBS member. We felt the only really controversial part of the stock was the front support which is essentially an attachment to the barrel which we declared in this case was being used as a front support not as a barrel attachment. This puts the device as reviewed by the eBoard on legal ground, if it is modified in any large way it might have to be reviewed again but in essence if a person wants to protest the stock on the basis of it having a non legal barrel attachment he will lose the protest since it has already been ruled on.

As stated by Wayne IBS is trying to allow new advancement in the sport which is one of the organizations primary objectives.

Dick Grosbier

 

[333smitty]

Thanks for the clarification Dick.

 

[Gene Beggs]

The IBS Executive Board of which I am a member, and Wayne Shaw was at the time a member, ruled that the Beggs stock was legal for use in HV/LV SP classes . That happened last year and nothing has changed on that decision. We were acting in response to a request for clarification from an IBS member. We felt the only really controversial part of the stock was the front support which is essentially an attachment to the barrel which we declared in this case was being used as a front support not as a barrel attachment. This puts the device as reviewed by the eBoard on legal ground, if it is modified in any large way it might have to be reviewed again but in essence if a person wants to protest the stock on the basis of it having a non legal barrel attachment he will lose the protest since it has already been ruled on.

As stated by Wayne IBS is trying to allow new advancement in the sport which is one of the organizations primary objectives.

Dick Grosbier

Thank you Dick. You are correct; the IBS board has officially approved the Beggs Ultralite stock for use in the Varmint and Sporter classes of IBS competition.

Gene Beggs

 

[333smitty]

New Technological Innovation

Thank you Dick. You are correct; the IBS board has officially approved the Beggs Ultralite stock for use in the Varmint and Sporter classes of IBS competition.

Gene Beggs

Gene,

Has the NBRSA officially approved your stock for competition? I kinda like'em and was waiting to see how they performed in the competitive arena and to see if they would be formally adopted by both organizations.

I, like others, love to see new technological innovation in a sport that so desperatley needs it. i.e. tuners, electronic flags, frozen scopes, carbon fibre stocks, joystick type rests, drop ports, static ejection systems etc, etc........... Keep up the good work.

 

[geo]

Begg's question

What is the difference between the Begg's stock and Shelley Davidson Ticker Toy Stock design?

 

[Charles E]

Dick -- and the IBS board:

My question was asked not because I want to buy a "Begg's Style" stock, but want to make something similar. Allowing new designs one at a time without a rules clarification strikes me as arbitrary.

So, for example, what I would like to do is use a tensioned barrel -- maybe allowable, the tensioning tube is a type of tuner -- with something similar to a "Beggs forearm" mounted on the tensioning tube. And use this for IBS VFS.

It gets confusing. I know Don Neilson shot a tensioned barrel sporter in a NBRSA point-blank group match. And as a matter of fact, so did I. But that's NBRSA, not IBS.

Short thought: If you're going to allow the Beggs stock, and I think you should, how about a rules clarification for the rest of us.

Charles

& while I'm asking questions, does a "snubber" constitute a "barrel attachment, or is it a "tuner"?

I suspect the old rules were to banish the 12-inch sleeves like Hart use to make in the days before custom actions, when wooden stocks were all there was. We're somewhat beyond that point . . .

 

[333smitty]

Davidson vs Beggs Skeleton Stocks

What is the difference between the Begg's stock and Shelley Davidson Ticker Toy Stock design?

geo,

Here's a couple pics of their respective rigs. Same in principle but different design concepts.

Hope this helps.....

RIP Shelly

 

[Dick Grosbier]

Short thought: If you're going to allow the Beggs stock, and I think you should, how about a rules clarification for the rest of us.

Charles

Charles
The IBS Executive Board has no power to make rule changes. Generally speaking the EB has the ultimate say in interpreting rules because if you want to protest something the EB is as high as the protest can eventually go. I am sure the EB could be overrulled by the members at the next annual ( or special) meeting but that would not likely happen unless the EB did something outrageous. So if you want something in the rule book to support an idea it takes 25 signatures on a petition properly submitted to become an agenda item. What I am saying is getting it in actual wording in the rule book is gonna be tricky and depend on coming up with the right wording.

As to getting something new approved, short of using it in competition and getting protested and referred to the Group or Score Committees for ruling you would need to do what was done in the case of the Beggs stock. You as an individual could submit adequate information to the appropriate disciplinee committee for them to make a ruling on if it was legal, at a minimum Drawings and or Photos will be needed. The committee will either rule for it or against it or refer it on to the EB. If they rule against you or do not give you a definitive answer you could then submit it to the EB but not without trying to get an answer from the respective Discipline committee first. Kind of like the chain of command in the military.

So if you want a clarification on the legality of an idea as you earlier said you must either use it and get it protested or submit data to the Score or Group committee (or both) for a ruling.

Dick Grosbier

 

[geo]

Vic: Tnx for the clarification, I thought tyey were very similar

geo

geo,

Here's a couple pics of their respective rigs. Same in principle but different design concepts.

Hope this helps.....

RIP Shelly

 

[Gene Beggs]

Gene,

Has the NBRSA officially approved your stock for competition? I kinda like'em and was waiting to see how they performed in the competitive arena and to see if they would be formally adopted by both organizations.

I, like others, love to see new technological innovation in a sport that so desperatley needs it. i.e. tuners, electronic flags, frozen scopes, carbon fibre stocks, joystick type rests, drop ports, static ejection systems etc, etc........... Keep up the good work.

The Beggs Ultralite stock was introduced at the Cactus Classic in Phoenix three years ago. The NBRSA President, Dennis Thornbury and NBRSA Vice President, Don Nielson were asked to examine the rifle and determine if it met the NBRSA rules for the Varmint and Sporter classes of competition. They both declared it within the rules and said that as long as the angle of the lower strut of the buttstock met the minimum angle requirements as described in the rulebook, the stock was legal. Later that year, Jackie Schmidt questioned the legality of the stock in that the forend is bolted directly to the barrel at a point more than four inches in front of the receiver face. His contention was that the clamp of the forend constituted a 'barrel block' more than four inches in front of the receiver face. Wilbur Harris, the NBRSA Southeast Regional Director investigated and found that the "barrel block" rule had been removed from the rulebook in 2005. As far as I was concerned this removed any doubt about the legality of the stock and I went into production. Just to be safe and remove any doubt about legality, I was advised to make a formal presentation to both the NBRSA and IBS for official approval. The IBS was quick to approve the Ultralite for use in Varmint and Sporter classes of IBS competition and IBS President, Jeff Stover sent me an official letter to that effect. I have not yet made a formal request for approval from the NBRSA but will do so at the annual meeting in Kansas City.

Gene Beggs

 

[Gene Beggs]

What is the difference between the Begg's stock and Shelley Davidson Ticker Toy Stock design?

What is the difference? Everything! There is not one thing on the Beggs Ultralite that is made like Shelley Davidson's "Tinker Toy."

Gene Beggs

 

[Charles E]

. . . Wilbur Harris, the NBRSA Southeast Regional Director investigated and found that the "barrel block" rule had been removed from the rulebook in 2005.

But it is still in the IBS rulebook.

I sort of have a dog in this fight, as I'm a fan of barrel blocks, and the 4 inches in front of the boltface rule leaves you with about a 3-inch block. BTW, one plus to a barrel block is that with the appropriate design, you can accommodate several different actions with one stock -- I believe Scoville made a couple of these stocks, one which fared quite well at the Super Shoot.

 

[Gene Beggs]

Charles, you are correct, the barrel block rule is still in the IBS rulebook; however, the board ruled the Beggs Ultralite forend is not a barrel block and is legal in IBS competition. I hope the NBRSA will see fit to eliminate the barrel block rule as the IBS has done because it is no longer needed; it just gets in the way and causes confusion.

Gene Beggs