BAT MOD. I think?? PICS Pease Look!!!
- Thread starter skeetlee
- Start date
Jerry Reisdorff
New member
Looking at
this whole thing, I almost imagine the major effect is due to the spring getting compressed more verus more weight. The pin momentum and energy hitting the firing pin is what is the most important item. IF there is not some lost friction in the system, and there usually isnt, then a lighter pin moving faster is just as good or better then the heavy pin. The heavy pin will take more spring pressure and the result is heavier bolt lift etc. The biggest bang for you buck on ignition, is longer pin travel, but nobody likes that because the pin picks up a little quicker on the bolt close. The real bottom line is that most remington size pins need about 22+ llbs of spring force and about .240 or more fall to work well. So many shooters want hangers to be made to allow the pin to pick up when the bolt clears the extraction cam and on lots of actions that drops the fall too much. If the bolt cocking piece is cut to not pick up that soon the handle lift increases and no one likes that either. No free lunch.
this whole thing, I almost imagine the major effect is due to the spring getting compressed more verus more weight. The pin momentum and energy hitting the firing pin is what is the most important item. IF there is not some lost friction in the system, and there usually isnt, then a lighter pin moving faster is just as good or better then the heavy pin. The heavy pin will take more spring pressure and the result is heavier bolt lift etc. The biggest bang for you buck on ignition, is longer pin travel, but nobody likes that because the pin picks up a little quicker on the bolt close. The real bottom line is that most remington size pins need about 22+ llbs of spring force and about .240 or more fall to work well. So many shooters want hangers to be made to allow the pin to pick up when the bolt clears the extraction cam and on lots of actions that drops the fall too much. If the bolt cocking piece is cut to not pick up that soon the handle lift increases and no one likes that either. No free lunch.
Jerry,
The picture I posted of the firing pin mod accoplishes most of the two important items you mentioned in the post. Because of the BAT SV having a shorter (and lighter) firing pin, the weight brings the pin "almost" to the weight of a remington style pin. With the stronger spring "20 lbs", and a firing pin fall of .220, I'm almost to a remington standard. A 7.5" BAT can be modified this way to hit just like the remington/panda actions. A 6.5" can come close but not quite there. Close enough? I don't know. There is also more to this mod, and that is making sure there is no drag in the system and usually increasing the size of the firing pin hole in the bolt shroud just to make sure it don't rub. Also, check for firing pin straightness.
Hovis
The picture I posted of the firing pin mod accoplishes most of the two important items you mentioned in the post. Because of the BAT SV having a shorter (and lighter) firing pin, the weight brings the pin "almost" to the weight of a remington style pin. With the stronger spring "20 lbs", and a firing pin fall of .220, I'm almost to a remington standard. A 7.5" BAT can be modified this way to hit just like the remington/panda actions. A 6.5" can come close but not quite there. Close enough? I don't know. There is also more to this mod, and that is making sure there is no drag in the system and usually increasing the size of the firing pin hole in the bolt shroud just to make sure it don't rub. Also, check for firing pin straightness.
Hovis
goodgrouper
tryingtobeabettergrouper
Skeet,
I fully understand what you are talking about. But......on the other hand, maybe one needs to learn how to read the wind better. At least I know that is my case. I have two rifles that shoot very good, but alas, the shooter is not able to drive them to their potential. Probably has something to do with my experience, age, eyes, etc. One can easily get caught up in the equipment part and neglect the esoteric parts such as tune and wind. Get my drift......at about 35mph.
Donald
Donald,
you hit the nail on the head sir. In a warehouse, some of this equipment tinkering might show a slight (or very slight) improvement in accuracy. But in the real world, it won't matter too much so long as the action functions properly. A firing pin might make .01% difference in any group and the misreading of wind will make or break your group. In other words, your equipment could be tweaked to absolute perfection but if you didn't catch that the third windflag just switched direction, it's not going to matter how good you've polished your action. The only thing that matters is the group size and the wind has the last word in the entire shooting system.
Skeet,
It's all fun to tinker. Especially in winter when you've got cabin fever. But once you jump into competition this spring, you will quickly see what I'm talking about. You've got a Cadillac of an action there. Now go out and learn how to compete with it. A good competitor will know what to do and when to do it. He will adapt his strategy and style to whatever he needs to that day. He will not turn a .250 inch group into a .350" by waiting to get the perfect trigger pull for a zero. He will not be thinking about lock times and spring drag but about the windflags and when is the right time to pull the trigger. He will be studying wind patterns and testing what they do to see which condition is the most honest not worrying about his firing pin recess.
Oh, you're going to love it. Just wait. Come on mr sunshine, ride high in the sky soon!
goodgrouper
tryingtobeabettergrouper
Agreed. That's why I shoot a Viper!
But Bat's are still pretty good out of the box and shouldn't be giving problems. SOunds more to me like there wasn't a problem with this BAT but we tried to fix it anyway out of boredom? But I admit I didn't read the whole thread.
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Boyd Allen
Active member
Jerry,
Do you think that smaller firing pin tips require less kinetic energy to work well? Looking for less disturbance of the cross hairs when dry firing, I tried one of Greg Tannel's pin/spring combos. It has a fluted aluminum shaft, and is paired with a 25# spring. The idea is to keep the KE about constant ( more important for setting off the primer)with the stock setup but reduce the momentum (more to the point as far as rifle disturbance goes. It seems to set off primers just fine. I should mention that this was done to a Viper, and that the stock spring is about 19-20#. It seems to me that putting weights on a bat pin must be about doing something to put more energy on the primer without giving up any more lightness in bolt lift (related to spring weight) than is necessary. Would a smaller pin tip reduce the need for more weight and/or spring pressure?
Do you think that smaller firing pin tips require less kinetic energy to work well? Looking for less disturbance of the cross hairs when dry firing, I tried one of Greg Tannel's pin/spring combos. It has a fluted aluminum shaft, and is paired with a 25# spring. The idea is to keep the KE about constant ( more important for setting off the primer)with the stock setup but reduce the momentum (more to the point as far as rifle disturbance goes. It seems to set off primers just fine. I should mention that this was done to a Viper, and that the stock spring is about 19-20#. It seems to me that putting weights on a bat pin must be about doing something to put more energy on the primer without giving up any more lightness in bolt lift (related to spring weight) than is necessary. Would a smaller pin tip reduce the need for more weight and/or spring pressure?
Alright,
This will probably get deleted but I'm just gonna spell it out real easily. Jerry is right on the button but I know he just doesn't want to say it. BAT's are winning a bunch.....now.....go to the top ten BAT shooters that consistanly place well or win with actions made in the last five or six years. Ask them to pull their firing pin.....guess what....find out for yourself. When a top gunsmith approached BAT about ignition problems, it went like this, Gunsmith "Can you take a look at your ignition, you need to look at more spring and pin weight", BAT "Why should I do anything...their winning", Gunsmith "There winning because we are modifing them", BAT "I'm selling all I can make so I don't believe anything is wrong".
Gunsmith no longer recommends BATs as highly and will tell a customer up front that work needs to be done to the ignition.
The weight added to the firing pin is only one third of the solution. Second is increased spring. Third is, checking for and fixing any drag.
Remington spent years and bunches of money developing their ignition system....it's never been proven faulty....it is the standard by which all other ignition systems are compared.
How many times has even the guys at Kelbly's have been on here preaching....ignition...ignition...ignition...
Jerry is on here doing the same thing.
Bill Calfee preaches ignition (whether centerfire or rimfire).
It's kind of like saying....water is water....will you drink it no matter where it came from???? But it's still wet....so it must be ok kinda sounds like....it goes bang so it must be ok.
Now, it may sound like I'm picking on BAT but really I'm not...their just on the burner for this thread.
Hovis
This will probably get deleted but I'm just gonna spell it out real easily. Jerry is right on the button but I know he just doesn't want to say it. BAT's are winning a bunch.....now.....go to the top ten BAT shooters that consistanly place well or win with actions made in the last five or six years. Ask them to pull their firing pin.....guess what....find out for yourself. When a top gunsmith approached BAT about ignition problems, it went like this, Gunsmith "Can you take a look at your ignition, you need to look at more spring and pin weight", BAT "Why should I do anything...their winning", Gunsmith "There winning because we are modifing them", BAT "I'm selling all I can make so I don't believe anything is wrong".
Gunsmith no longer recommends BATs as highly and will tell a customer up front that work needs to be done to the ignition.
The weight added to the firing pin is only one third of the solution. Second is increased spring. Third is, checking for and fixing any drag.
Remington spent years and bunches of money developing their ignition system....it's never been proven faulty....it is the standard by which all other ignition systems are compared.
How many times has even the guys at Kelbly's have been on here preaching....ignition...ignition...ignition...
Jerry is on here doing the same thing.
Bill Calfee preaches ignition (whether centerfire or rimfire).
It's kind of like saying....water is water....will you drink it no matter where it came from???? But it's still wet....so it must be ok kinda sounds like....it goes bang so it must be ok.
Now, it may sound like I'm picking on BAT but really I'm not...their just on the burner for this thread.
Hovis
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jackie schmidt
New member
Hovis
Benchrest is chock full of little ideas that inventive craftsmen come up with to improve certain products, or to cure a minor flaw in an otherwise great product.
Many Shooters at the top of this game are well aware of everything you said in your post. That is all I can say about that.
I suggest that shooters contact Dwight Scott concerning some of the things that he has found are beneficial to this particular action.........jackie
Benchrest is chock full of little ideas that inventive craftsmen come up with to improve certain products, or to cure a minor flaw in an otherwise great product.
Many Shooters at the top of this game are well aware of everything you said in your post. That is all I can say about that.
I suggest that shooters contact Dwight Scott concerning some of the things that he has found are beneficial to this particular action.........jackie
boyd
the smaller pin does help in needing less energy for the hit, but not much. I believe the main effect is energy in the pin system versus momentum also.
Its been a while since I have run the math, but it seems like increasing the spring tension, reducing or adding pin weight is all a one to one effect by the time you take the distance/time relationship into account. This bat add on thingy does both, it adds mass and compresses the spring more. If you just added the mass, I think the energy would be a wash without the additional spring force and there should be no change, unless a lot of friction loss is there. It would be interesting to add a heavy part and an aluminum the same length, and see if both worked equally well. I almost assume the person who came up with this had the theory that he needed more weight, added this part which increased both weight and spring force and it worked not knowing exactly which one was the help. If the weight is the main helper I will be surprised, as then all these fast lock time pins wouldnt be working well for the highpower shooters and their harder primer ammo. Lock time isnt a big deal for us, but vibration is and the heavier pin should/will cause more vibration when falling too.
The big bang for getting more energy is to lengthen the drop amount. That has a squared relationship. I used to have a spreadsheet with all the numbers when I designed my action, but I cant seem to find it now. I used to check the actions with some heavy military ammo. The standard Viper would never hit it enough (nor would my 308 factory Remington either) to set them off. I added spring force and never got much. I moved the trigger back .075 and it ALWAYS hit hard enough. I know I added at least 40% more force then a Fed small rifle needed and had no luck. I added 30% more travel, and it was fine.
Food for thought on a cold, snowy day in Texas.
the smaller pin does help in needing less energy for the hit, but not much. I believe the main effect is energy in the pin system versus momentum also.
Its been a while since I have run the math, but it seems like increasing the spring tension, reducing or adding pin weight is all a one to one effect by the time you take the distance/time relationship into account. This bat add on thingy does both, it adds mass and compresses the spring more. If you just added the mass, I think the energy would be a wash without the additional spring force and there should be no change, unless a lot of friction loss is there. It would be interesting to add a heavy part and an aluminum the same length, and see if both worked equally well. I almost assume the person who came up with this had the theory that he needed more weight, added this part which increased both weight and spring force and it worked not knowing exactly which one was the help. If the weight is the main helper I will be surprised, as then all these fast lock time pins wouldnt be working well for the highpower shooters and their harder primer ammo. Lock time isnt a big deal for us, but vibration is and the heavier pin should/will cause more vibration when falling too.
The big bang for getting more energy is to lengthen the drop amount. That has a squared relationship. I used to have a spreadsheet with all the numbers when I designed my action, but I cant seem to find it now. I used to check the actions with some heavy military ammo. The standard Viper would never hit it enough (nor would my 308 factory Remington either) to set them off. I added spring force and never got much. I moved the trigger back .075 and it ALWAYS hit hard enough. I know I added at least 40% more force then a Fed small rifle needed and had no luck. I added 30% more travel, and it was fine.
Food for thought on a cold, snowy day in Texas.
no sir! The spring needs shortened if not replaced with a totaly new spring. Im not sure about that. I am sure its not the original spring lenght.
Now another thing i wonder is if this is a ppc modification or is it a no matter what cal your shooting modification. The reason i ask is that i have a BAT SV on a 600 yard rifle chambered in 6.5x47L. Thanks Lee
Now another thing i wonder is if this is a ppc modification or is it a no matter what cal your shooting modification. The reason i ask is that i have a BAT SV on a 600 yard rifle chambered in 6.5x47L. Thanks Lee
M
-Markus-
Guest
Different calibers can have different springs.
Just my opinion, but I think primer ignition is more dependent on strike SPEED than anything else.
My basis; No matter how dented you make an uncrushed(far from fully seated), loose primer, it is less likely to go off. You could crush it in a vice, or deprime hot, without ignition. As long as you don't do it fast!
I have squeezed a primer until it is completely flatened in a seater to see if it would go off. Destroyed it alright, but No bang..
With this, I assume a quicker pin strike, whether from travel or lower mass, would better assure ignition.
How consistent this ignition is, other than assured, is beyond any notion from me now.
But I'm gearing up to find out..
One of my guns just opened in grouping. Nothing extreme, but ugly. My ammo and barrel prep is checklist, leaving only scope, bolt, or bedding.
When I checked the bolt I found that the setscrew holding the pin in the catchey-thing had failed to do it's job. This allowed pin travel to vary from shot to shot. Interesting though was that every primer ignited, and had seemingly identical dimples.
Anyway, I resolved the problem, and now I'm grouping better, but not as good as usual. It seems my primer ignition has taken a new charactor with my current pin travel setting. It's as if I had changed primers, and will need to adjust the load, or the crush I seat primers to.
Well, when Snowmageddon ends!
My basis; No matter how dented you make an uncrushed(far from fully seated), loose primer, it is less likely to go off. You could crush it in a vice, or deprime hot, without ignition. As long as you don't do it fast!
I have squeezed a primer until it is completely flatened in a seater to see if it would go off. Destroyed it alright, but No bang..
With this, I assume a quicker pin strike, whether from travel or lower mass, would better assure ignition.
How consistent this ignition is, other than assured, is beyond any notion from me now.
But I'm gearing up to find out..
One of my guns just opened in grouping. Nothing extreme, but ugly. My ammo and barrel prep is checklist, leaving only scope, bolt, or bedding.
When I checked the bolt I found that the setscrew holding the pin in the catchey-thing had failed to do it's job. This allowed pin travel to vary from shot to shot. Interesting though was that every primer ignited, and had seemingly identical dimples.
Anyway, I resolved the problem, and now I'm grouping better, but not as good as usual. It seems my primer ignition has taken a new charactor with my current pin travel setting. It's as if I had changed primers, and will need to adjust the load, or the crush I seat primers to.
Well, when Snowmageddon ends!
J
j mckinnie
Guest
So
what are the symptoms of erratic ingnition?vertical fliers?how far are we talking?Could they be mistaken for a buggered scope?How do we determine if its occuring?by dry firing and listening for a different strike sound?Does BAT make a spring compressing tool as there is nothing in there site that looks like it will do the job?
thanks jim
what are the symptoms of erratic ingnition?vertical fliers?how far are we talking?Could they be mistaken for a buggered scope?How do we determine if its occuring?by dry firing and listening for a different strike sound?Does BAT make a spring compressing tool as there is nothing in there site that looks like it will do the job?
thanks jim
From what I've seen, erratic means a primer fires like a different brand primer. So consider how other brands have performed with your load, and picture this happening intermittently.
I guess it could be likened to a bad scope problem.. Well, a broken scope problem.
I have been able to tweak ES a little by adjusting primer crush.
I guess it could be likened to a bad scope problem.. Well, a broken scope problem.
I have been able to tweak ES a little by adjusting primer crush.