Barrels

Tim Singleton said:
I'll keep this oldie going with a new question on barrels
Is there something any of you do with a blank to determine if it has potential other than chambering it and shooting
If you slug or something else are you convinced thru testing you can determine a shooter from one that will not or at least has a greater potential
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I used to think I could.

Aside from some weird anomaly, I have found that when dealing with top quality custom barrels, chambering them and shooting them is the only real test as to it's viability in the Competitive Arena.

Remember a number of years ago when Krieger sent out a lot of barrels where the grooves were not a perfect circle. You could see the indicator rise and fall as it swept through the groove. We all were concerned, untill Charles Huckabe had one that was a screamer. Krieger, without admitting to anything, started calling it by a name, "D" groove or something like that. Suddenly, it was the thing.

The fact was, Charles just had a great barrel.

I know shooters who do have specific things they look for before chambering, maybe they will chime in. I just chamber and head to the range.
 
Gordy Gritters has written several articles on slugging barrels before chambering, both to determine if they're worth the effort and to determine where to put the crown. IIRC Bill Calphee also wrote about slugging to figure out the best place to crown. I just started slugging my blanks - at this point just to see if I can feel _anything_ and try to get the hang of it. I don't cut a lot of barrels in a year (I'm only doing my own) so it'll probably take a while, but you can certainly feel the bell at the ends!

GsT
 
I just cut an inch off the big end then measure 21.25" to cut off for finish length cause that's where the gun makes weight. Most of the time anyway.
It would be nice to know if I could be doing something a little more to determine where to cut

I bore scope them but so far haven't seen any kind of visual flaws.
 
Greyfox said:
I certainly agree with Scotty in that some rifles just shoot better than others as do barrels. But when you see the same names near the top of the list so frequently you have to consider that a great deal has to do with the shooter. It was pointed out to me a while back that most of those names have ranges either nearby or in their backyard and I'm sure that many shoot daily or close to that. I recall Jackie Schmidt once speculating that a high % of the rifles that go to the line are capable of winning. You can't win with faulty equipment but, I think the shooter has more to do with winning than the barrel.

Rick
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This is one of the old posts.... note the second to last sentence " I recall Jackie Schmidt once speculating that a high % of the rifles that go to the line are capable of winning."

I believe that to be a miss-quote, what Jackie probably said was "are NOT capable"....but Jackie can correct me.
 
alinwa said:
This is one of the old posts.... note the second to last sentence " I recall Jackie Schmidt once speculating that a high % of the rifles that go to the line are capable of winning."

I believe that to be a miss-quote, what Jackie probably said was "are NOT capable"....but Jackie can correct me.
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Of course, I'm not Jackie, but I am the one that probably misquoted him. Thanks for the correction.

Rick
 
As I recall

Jackie said on several occasions that 75% of the rifles on the line at any givn time were not capable of winning. I wonder if that has changed; the percentage, that is.

Pete
 
In The Rimfire Game,

I think the same is probably true, in any given match. Mebby an even higher percentage.I think one can see that Tune plays a huge factor. tune is harder to deal with in Rimfire, from my experience.

There is a good discussion about barrels on the Air Gun forum right now.

Pete
 
Tim Singleton said:
I'll keep this going with a new question on barrels
Is there something any of you do with a blank to determine if it has potential other than chambering it and shooting
If you slug or something else are you convinced thru testing you can determine a shooter from one that will not or at least has a greater potential
Click to expand...

Hey Tim,
THE only way to tell is to shoot it. Year before last, I shot a barrel sent back to us by someone pretty well known, who said loudly that that barrel will never shoot, I can tell.
I shot it at Phoenix and at Holton and was 2nd in the 4 gun after the 100 yd stages in both events. I wish he sent me more like that.
When it comes to slugging---PLEASE DON"T. We have indicator gages and ring standards, each worth just shy of 5000.00 and full sets of lab grade pin gages. If you really want to know, pay for the shipping and we'll tell you. We see damaged barrels all the time from someone trying to slug it. If anyone really feels the need, please do it on someone else's product.

Later, Mark Buettgen
Bartlein Barrels
 
MARK BUETTGEN said:
Hey Tim,
THE only way to tell is to shoot it. Year before last, I shot a barrel sent back to us by someone pretty well known, who said loudly that that barrel will never shoot, I can tell.
I shot it at Phoenix and at Holton and was 2nd in the 4 gun after the 100 yd stages in both events. I wish he sent me more like that.
When it comes to slugging---PLEASE DON"T. We have indicator gages and ring standards, each worth just shy of 5000.00 and full sets of lab grade pin gages. If you really want to know, pay for the shipping and we'll tell you. We see damaged barrels all the time from someone trying to slug it. If anyone really feels the need, please do it on someone else's product.

Later, Mark Buettgen
Bartlein Barrels
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Hi Mark,

Thanks for taking the time to post this, I hadn't really considered the possibility of damaging the barrel (beyond ham-handedness). If I can pick your brain for a moment (not trying to be argumentative, but trying to learn from someone who probably sees more barrels in a day than I do in a year) - can you describe the damage? Is it confined to the ends of the barrel, or do you see damage farther in as well? Could this damage be seen / diagnosed with a borescope? Appreciate your input.

Regards,

GsT
 
I agree with those that say it is a "system" and that some rifles shoot better than others.

Several years ago I had a rifle built and that rifle shot pretty good it even managed top 20 at the SS, but when I squeezed the forend and barrel together it seemed to be quite flexible. Two years after having it built, at a match and just after the finish of a days shooting, the rifle took a light knock and the action fell out of the stock.
I managed to get it glued back in that night and shot it the next day, when I squeeze the barrel and forend now it seems more solid and less flexible........perhaps it wasn't glued in fully prior to falling out.

Funny thing is the rifle doesn't seem to agg any better now than it did before being reglued.

I have been told about a rifle that was winning the agg and shot a really small group and between relays the action fell out of the stock..............why did it shoot so well?
I have also been told by a good competitor that he has two rifles built the same, one rifle shoots and the other doesn't, yet if he takes the bolt out of the rifle that shoots and puts it in the rifle that doesn't that rifle now shoots........yet he can't see anything wrong with the bolt.

Why does one rifle shoot better or is more consistent than another?
Perhaps if someone can answer that we might know why some barrels shoot better than others.
 
Ian_Owen said:
one rifle shoots and the other doesn't, yet if he takes the bolt out of the rifle that shoots and puts it in the rifle that doesn't that rifle now shoots........yet he can't see anything wrong with the bolt.

.
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And I know people who charge a fair fee to FIX those bolts that don't shoot......

I'll name one of them in passing because he's posted here in the past (the DISTANT past to some, but still here on Wilbur's Board...) and has earned my plug.

I own probably 30 custom triggers, at least 20 of them being Jewell's. It's fair to say that I've "installed" a few Rem700-style triggers onto Rem700 style actions, many if not most of them custom-made actions. In my example "700" is a style......For instance I class a Borden BRM or a Kelbly Panda or even a 2.5" octagagonal BAT 'M' as a "Rem700-style"....and I've gained a small understanding of the Jewell assy.

But of the guns I own that Jim Borden has touched, HE HAS INSTALLED THE TRIGGER on all of them. Jim knows things about making an action shoot, REAL things.... things I don't know but catch glimmers of. I "see as through a glass, darkly" in regard to making actions shoot.

OOOPsss.... I'll name another guy, Greg Walley over to Kelbly's knows a thing about triggers.......and making actions shoot.

I'm intentionally leaving others out
 
GeneT said:
Hi Mark,

Thanks for taking the time to post this, I hadn't really considered the possibility of damaging the barrel (beyond ham-handedness). If I can pick your brain for a moment (not trying to be argumentative, but trying to learn from someone who probably sees more barrels in a day than I do in a year) - can you describe the damage? Is it confined to the ends of the barrel, or do you see damage farther in as well? Could this damage be seen / diagnosed with a borescope? Appreciate your input.

Regards,

GsT
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GsT, Mark and Frank here......depending on how a guy does it he can scratch/damage the bore is what usually happens.

Think about it. The grooves are only .0035-.004" deep on average depending on caliber. Now think of how narrow the lands are. Usually around a 30/70 land to groove ratio. The lands stick up so they take the beating more than the grooves do/usually damaged first.

One of the top gunsmiths in the country slugs barrels. I won't name names as I didn't ask his permission. He got another makers barrel sent into him to install it. He had problems over and over with that makers barrels. So he is vary wary about installing them anymore. Bore sizes, groove sizes, damage you name it so he really would look they're barrels over before doing any work on them anymore. Just like 3 months ago he called me up and asked to send in a barrel he slugged. He knew the bore/groove had dimensional problems but he is honest that slugging it he can only get to say with in a .0005" to a .001" on sizes. On a good day say .0003"-.0005". So he asked if he could send it up so we could measure it. He knew it was bad but didn't know how bad. So you can slug and get an idea of what is going on but unless you have actual bore gauges for measuring the bore and the groove you won't know the actual size etc....

I love it when a guy is comparing brand x to brand o etc...and says one makers barrel is faster than the other etc...but they never talked about measuring the barrel to the .0000" place, what chamber reamer was used etc....not to mention powder lot, bullet lots etc....When this happens I tell guys you are not comparing apples to apples!

When I get feedback from ammunition makers who use ammunition test barrels we make and they put 12 new .300wm into service or say 4 new 6.5 Creedmoor's etc....and they tell me all of the barrels had pressures within 1500psi and a velocity spread of only 10fps with reference ammunition that shows the consistency from one barrel to the next. That directly corresponds to bore and groove sizes when you use the same chamber reamer etc....

Pushing a lead slug thru it maybe but when a customer tells us he felt a .0002" loose spot in the bore with a patch. I'll call B.S. on the patch and say only a maybe on the lead slug. I also take it with a grain of salt depending on who it's coming from. A gunsmith who builds say a handful of rifles a year vs. a well known one that does work on 500-1000 of them a year......

Later, Frank and Mark
Bartlein Barrels
 
On page three of this thread L. Costa said that he sometimes got a little under an hour on the flags with some barrels. Could someone please explain what he meant by that?
 
Pablo,

Flag tail lifts by almost an hour, if referencing the face of a clock, and the bullet doesn’t move.

Hope that helps.

Mark
 
Frank Green said:
GsT, Mark and Frank here......depending on how a guy does it he can scratch/damage the bore is what usually happens.

<snip>
Later, Frank and Mark
Bartlein Barrels
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Thanks gents! I appreciate your taking the time to respond.

GsT
 
In the discussion

about barrels on the Air Gun forum a fellow there states that dead straight,concentric barrels are the most accurate, period. I have been fishing around trying to understand how a consumer can know if they have purchased a straight and concentric barrel. Just from reading, people seem to be more concerned with grove dimensions than anything else when it comes to trying to get a great shooting barrel when we have someone with a test lab who has stated that accuracy lies in straight and concentric.

I don't know but I am thinking most people who fit barrels don't have the equipment to determine if a barrel is straight and concentric. So here is a question, If we requested certified straight and concentric barrels when we ordered them, how much would the premium be from the maker? Would it be 50%? Would it be less?

Pete
 
markharp said:
Pablo,

Flag tail lifts by almost an hour, if referencing the face of a clock, and the bullet doesn’t move.

Hope that helps.

Mark
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I don't know if that's right but it's a pretty good indication. I thought that the flags could rotate an hour either way and the shot still go in the hole. Truth is, if you had a barrel that would do both you would have a pretty good barrel. What I do know for sure is...if you get away with such a shot you really need to shoot a sighter to make sure before you shoot another record shot regardless of what barrel you have.
 
I remember one of Barry's barrels

Pete Wass said:
about barrels on the Air Gun forum a fellow there states that dead straight,concentric barrels are the most accurate, period. I have been fishing around trying to understand how a consumer can know if they have purchased a straight and concentric barrel. Just from reading, people seem to be more concerned with grove dimensions than anything else when it comes to trying to get a great shooting barrel when we have someone with a test lab who has stated that accuracy lies in straight and concentric.

I don't know but I am thinking most people who fit barrels don't have the equipment to determine if a barrel is straight and concentric. So here is a question, If we requested certified straight and concentric barrels when we ordered them, how much would the premium be from the maker? Would it be 50%? Would it be less?

Pete
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was pretty cockeyed according to Gary. He won more wood with that one than any other. Go figure.
 
I believe that if you had a group of barrels that measured perfect in every respect that some would shoot better than others and that the only way to find them would be to try them all. It may be that the one variable that we cannot see through ordinary means is residual stress. In the case of cut barrels it comes from the steel mill, and in the case of button barrels that are stress relieved it is the result of an imperfect process. I have seen some evidence of the latter.
 
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