Barrels
- Thread starter Tim Singleton
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Tim Singleton
Member
Thanks, guys for all the response.
Gives a lot of information to think on
Tim
Gives a lot of information to think on
Tim
JerrySharrett
Senile Member
Get a copy of Tony's book. It will tell you most of his story.
Some thoughts after not postiong in a while.
2013 and 2014 hasn't been "high involvement" years for me in competitive benchrest; but I have kept a close eye on the sport with much interest. Sometime soon I hope to "re-engage".
A couple of points:
- Wilber is right. It is more than just a good barrel.
- Bart is correct. You may have to go through barrels. But, it is more of a system, including components, learning and knowing them and then using them at the appropriate matches.
- Tony is right. You will know it when you see it.
But more than these items (in my view) is that to be a top-level, consistent competitor, shooting has to be a "life style". That means not only experimenting, but listening closely to those who are "hot" at any point in time, continual working with your "system" to get ready for the next important match. Great competitors are what we call in the automotive industry "fast followers". That means if someone finds something that works, there will be a rush to grab that concept or component and incorporate it in their system. It's hard to experiment, and then get ready for the next match with all of the things that go into getting ready for that match.
That being said, I have always felt that there are three reason one shoots benchrest. Those being: 1) competition, 2) social interaction with like-minded individuals, and 3) experimentation with all sorts of shooting equipment and components. I also believe that one can try, but rarely succeed in being any more than one of these types of participants. That doesn't mean that one is better or more important to the sport than the other. It's just that each of us only has some much energy to apply to this sport, and each of these endeavors takes energy.
One theme that seems to run through the top of this sport is that one has to spend some money to compete at the top level. And when I say that, I mean that as a hobby (very few actually MAKE money in this sport) there are few that don't take disposable income to participate in. (Try joining a golf country club, owning any kind of boat, or shoot shotguns at any meaningful level.)
My direction has been to try and be a competitor. I spent time refining and reducing the amount of variables (powder types, one bullet type, one reamer, one gunsmith, etc.) Once I found that bullet, barrel, component combination, I worked two types of powder against each other and tried to learn them and when to change something. I also had two LV rifles that I played against each other at every match. And then I bought two new scopes every year and replaced them at the beginning of each year. (I now have also started shooting a HV rifle quite a bit, which actually hurts how your LV gun(s) shoot and it becomes evident at the matches.) Having three great rifles (and one great rail gun) has been a nice way to participate in BR; but getting to those three, I had to get through dozens of rifles, including at least ten BAT/Scovilles of basically the same configuration. (I do have a reputation of selling great rifles; but that is probably more that I don't have a great skill at knowing when something has potential that I haven't been able to immediately see.)
Now, back to what this string is about. When I started trying to compete, I heard continually that it was "bullets, barrels and powder. The hot barrels at that time were Shilens and Harts, with some MacLennans thrown in. Flat-base, longer bearing surface bullets and "T" powder were the way to go. When cut rifle barrels started to become better made, and N-133 and boattail bullets started to get to the top of the stats, I was just starting to do some good shooting. I also found that pull-down 8208 shot great in some conditions. I bought as much of these components as could find.
About how many barrels, I listened closely to my gunsmith as to what was starting to shoot well. When I chased HOF points, I bought ten LV barrels and three HV barrels and two unlimited barrels (at that time Kriegers) each year. I did that five years in a row. Those shot great and with my limited time to practice and qualify barrels, and my limited tuning variables, I found that I would get one great barrel out of every three. (One year was a spectatular year where I had seven barrels that I wouldn't be afraid to take to a big match.) I would break them in and then shoot one agg. with them at a local match and put the gun aside; saving it for a big match if that agg. won or was competitive in any kind of difficult conditions.)
Today, I usually buy two or three a year (I still like Kriegers, but Bartleins are at the top of a lot of match lists) and have a basement full of well-gunsmithed pretty "good" barrels that fit my system (Bat-actioned Scovilles). I also have a few "darn good" barrels that will be brought out of retirement if I can get back into shooting again. The one thing that I hope that will be able to be found again is the ability to relearn and work the variables and anticipate when something needs to be changed. That is part of living the life style.
But one thing for sure, to get and stay at the top, one has to spend some money, buy some barrels, spend a lot of time behind the trigger and put oneself in as many competitive situations as possible to develop and keep an edge.
2013 and 2014 hasn't been "high involvement" years for me in competitive benchrest; but I have kept a close eye on the sport with much interest. Sometime soon I hope to "re-engage".
A couple of points:
- Wilber is right. It is more than just a good barrel.
- Bart is correct. You may have to go through barrels. But, it is more of a system, including components, learning and knowing them and then using them at the appropriate matches.
- Tony is right. You will know it when you see it.
But more than these items (in my view) is that to be a top-level, consistent competitor, shooting has to be a "life style". That means not only experimenting, but listening closely to those who are "hot" at any point in time, continual working with your "system" to get ready for the next important match. Great competitors are what we call in the automotive industry "fast followers". That means if someone finds something that works, there will be a rush to grab that concept or component and incorporate it in their system. It's hard to experiment, and then get ready for the next match with all of the things that go into getting ready for that match.
That being said, I have always felt that there are three reason one shoots benchrest. Those being: 1) competition, 2) social interaction with like-minded individuals, and 3) experimentation with all sorts of shooting equipment and components. I also believe that one can try, but rarely succeed in being any more than one of these types of participants. That doesn't mean that one is better or more important to the sport than the other. It's just that each of us only has some much energy to apply to this sport, and each of these endeavors takes energy.
One theme that seems to run through the top of this sport is that one has to spend some money to compete at the top level. And when I say that, I mean that as a hobby (very few actually MAKE money in this sport) there are few that don't take disposable income to participate in. (Try joining a golf country club, owning any kind of boat, or shoot shotguns at any meaningful level.)
My direction has been to try and be a competitor. I spent time refining and reducing the amount of variables (powder types, one bullet type, one reamer, one gunsmith, etc.) Once I found that bullet, barrel, component combination, I worked two types of powder against each other and tried to learn them and when to change something. I also had two LV rifles that I played against each other at every match. And then I bought two new scopes every year and replaced them at the beginning of each year. (I now have also started shooting a HV rifle quite a bit, which actually hurts how your LV gun(s) shoot and it becomes evident at the matches.) Having three great rifles (and one great rail gun) has been a nice way to participate in BR; but getting to those three, I had to get through dozens of rifles, including at least ten BAT/Scovilles of basically the same configuration. (I do have a reputation of selling great rifles; but that is probably more that I don't have a great skill at knowing when something has potential that I haven't been able to immediately see.)
Now, back to what this string is about. When I started trying to compete, I heard continually that it was "bullets, barrels and powder. The hot barrels at that time were Shilens and Harts, with some MacLennans thrown in. Flat-base, longer bearing surface bullets and "T" powder were the way to go. When cut rifle barrels started to become better made, and N-133 and boattail bullets started to get to the top of the stats, I was just starting to do some good shooting. I also found that pull-down 8208 shot great in some conditions. I bought as much of these components as could find.
About how many barrels, I listened closely to my gunsmith as to what was starting to shoot well. When I chased HOF points, I bought ten LV barrels and three HV barrels and two unlimited barrels (at that time Kriegers) each year. I did that five years in a row. Those shot great and with my limited time to practice and qualify barrels, and my limited tuning variables, I found that I would get one great barrel out of every three. (One year was a spectatular year where I had seven barrels that I wouldn't be afraid to take to a big match.) I would break them in and then shoot one agg. with them at a local match and put the gun aside; saving it for a big match if that agg. won or was competitive in any kind of difficult conditions.)
Today, I usually buy two or three a year (I still like Kriegers, but Bartleins are at the top of a lot of match lists) and have a basement full of well-gunsmithed pretty "good" barrels that fit my system (Bat-actioned Scovilles). I also have a few "darn good" barrels that will be brought out of retirement if I can get back into shooting again. The one thing that I hope that will be able to be found again is the ability to relearn and work the variables and anticipate when something needs to be changed. That is part of living the life style.
But one thing for sure, to get and stay at the top, one has to spend some money, buy some barrels, spend a lot of time behind the trigger and put oneself in as many competitive situations as possible to develop and keep an edge.
James M.
New member
Pay attention to Bart and Joe....they know of what they speak. They have paid their dues and risen to HOF status.... not by luck, but by determination and good equipment. Does this mean that those who can't really afford this sport should forget about competing? No! not at all. Those, like myself who can afford to buy a new barrel once a year or perhaps one every other year will get a "hummer" every once in a while. Then they can compete for the life of that barrel....if they follow the regimen outlined above. I have shot short range Benchrest since 1997 and I must say that my wins are few, but the people that I have known makes the effort worth every hour I have spent traveling to matches. Although the following are no longer with us, they have made an indelible impression on a country boy from Louisiana. These include Ed Watson, Mike Walker, Skip Otto, Charles Delassandro, Ferris Pindell, Lou Palmissano, Miles Hollister, Dave Dohrmann, Butch Fisher, Jerry Simison, Dale Rose, Jef Fowler, Al Davidson, Henry Vranian and many others. For those who did not have the privilege of knowing these icons of Benchrest, try to get to some matches and meet the "stars" of today and the future Icons. Good shooting....James Mock
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Tim Singleton
Member
Great information from everyone. That's what's great about this site
A lot of us live in an area with no benchrest mentor we can ask questions
Thanks to all
A lot of us live in an area with no benchrest mentor we can ask questions
Thanks to all
Dick Grosbier
Club Coordinator
Just to be clear, Dwight may be Tony's current gunsmith, but he has been through several over the years.
Dick
Dick I think you are right about having a good Smith, you could have the straitest barrel in the world but if the chamber isn't straight, have fun. And I have to agree with everyone you have to pay your dues. And you have to be able to make the HUMMER WORK. God only knows I've paid my Dues.
Joe Salt
Joe Salt
M
mks
Guest
Joe,
Thanks for a great read. MacLennan barrels, that's one I hadn't heard of.
Keith
Thanks for a great read. MacLennan barrels, that's one I hadn't heard of.
Keith
Dusty Stevens
Hollow Point Dispenser
Wilbur has been advocating for a long time that a great deal of the accuracy depends on the rifle. Agree 100%!!
I have two rifles that were built on the same day by the same gunsmith. Actions are two numbers apart (I know who has the number in between and the $#@^% refuses to sell it to me
. Stocks are identical, triggers, optics, mounts, weight, tuner, etc. Yet one somehow shoots better than the other. Not a lot mind you but if things get tight, i go to the rifle I call Rifle 2. I have switched all the components and even the firing pin mechanism to see if I can find what makes R2 better than R1 and I cannot find it. The only thing I have not done is take the actions out of the stocks.
Some of you are thinking that it's probably because I have more confidence in Rifle 2. Thought of that. When David Reynolds was alive we tried all that. Same barrel, switch between the rifles and let David shoot without him knowing which one he was shooting. Repeat, repeat, repeat. Guess what, Rifle 2 always was a little better.
So what I do now, is test my barrels on Rifle 1 and if they shoot well on it, they will shoot better on Rifle2.
As to hummers. Seen it but never owned one. I have had many barrels that will give me just under 1 hour on the flags but never the classic definition of Boyer of 1.5 hours plus. The other thing that people ignore when a barrel "gives" in the wind is that it will generally only do that if the rifle is tuned precisely at it's optimal point. As an example the last barrel I had that gave me something, did so only at 30.1 grains of 133. If i tried 29.8 it would still go a bit horizontal with more wind drift and at 30.4 it was a little bit vertical with good wind resistance. Of course that was at a specific atmospheric condition and the optimal point would move around as expected.
Just some food for thought..
Merry Christmas everyone.
Larry
I have two rifles that were built on the same day by the same gunsmith. Actions are two numbers apart (I know who has the number in between and the $#@^% refuses to sell it to me
. Stocks are identical, triggers, optics, mounts, weight, tuner, etc. Yet one somehow shoots better than the other. Not a lot mind you but if things get tight, i go to the rifle I call Rifle 2. I have switched all the components and even the firing pin mechanism to see if I can find what makes R2 better than R1 and I cannot find it. The only thing I have not done is take the actions out of the stocks.Some of you are thinking that it's probably because I have more confidence in Rifle 2. Thought of that. When David Reynolds was alive we tried all that. Same barrel, switch between the rifles and let David shoot without him knowing which one he was shooting. Repeat, repeat, repeat. Guess what, Rifle 2 always was a little better.
So what I do now, is test my barrels on Rifle 1 and if they shoot well on it, they will shoot better on Rifle2
.As to hummers. Seen it but never owned one. I have had many barrels that will give me just under 1 hour on the flags but never the classic definition of Boyer of 1.5 hours plus. The other thing that people ignore when a barrel "gives" in the wind is that it will generally only do that if the rifle is tuned precisely at it's optimal point. As an example the last barrel I had that gave me something, did so only at 30.1 grains of 133. If i tried 29.8 it would still go a bit horizontal with more wind drift and at 30.4 it was a little bit vertical with good wind resistance. Of course that was at a specific atmospheric condition and the optimal point would move around as expected.
Just some food for thought..
Merry Christmas everyone.
Larry
Take the action our of the stock example....
... I agree with Larry (and his pooch) whole-heartedly.
In 2005 at the NBRSA Nationals I was lucky enough shot a .1750 HV grand aggregate, with a .1650 at 200 yards. That gun shot great.
In 2006, I took that action our of its stock (the reason, and in retrospect, the logic escapes me) and put it on my railgun. I shot that action on my railgun at and won both the 2006 NBRSA and 2007 IBS unlimited nationals. That action shot great on the end of the barrel of my railgun.
In the Winter of 2007-08 I glued that action back into its stock. That gun has not shot a teen agg. since. And I have gone over the firingpin fall, trigger, etc, and shot several barrels (known and not known) on that gun trying to make it work.
It is now currently at a well-known stockmaker's being rebedded and glued in.
... I agree with Larry (and his pooch) whole-heartedly.
In 2005 at the NBRSA Nationals I was lucky enough shot a .1750 HV grand aggregate, with a .1650 at 200 yards. That gun shot great.
In 2006, I took that action our of its stock (the reason, and in retrospect, the logic escapes me) and put it on my railgun. I shot that action on my railgun at and won both the 2006 NBRSA and 2007 IBS unlimited nationals. That action shot great on the end of the barrel of my railgun.
In the Winter of 2007-08 I glued that action back into its stock. That gun has not shot a teen agg. since. And I have gone over the firingpin fall, trigger, etc, and shot several barrels (known and not known) on that gun trying to make it work.
It is now currently at a well-known stockmaker's being rebedded and glued in.
Looking at Barts post, he lists 12 things the top shooters all have in common. Sooooo, for the average shooter like me, that on his best days can only manage to successfully execute about 4 of these without a HUGE trainwreck, what are we supposed to do?
Anyone who has known me for very long knows I put more effort into this game than the average person and I sure would like to have more success at it.
It is very hard for a normal person to be able to keep looking for the next thing that is better than we have right now, only to find out it isn't and what we had before was actually better. Raise your hand if you sold a gun and regret ever doing it.
Another thing I have run into is asking 4 different shooters, all HOF guys, they will all tell you something different. Now, are all of them telling you the truth? Sometimes it is hard to tell.
Joe Hynes
Anyone who has known me for very long knows I put more effort into this game than the average person and I sure would like to have more success at it.
It is very hard for a normal person to be able to keep looking for the next thing that is better than we have right now, only to find out it isn't and what we had before was actually better. Raise your hand if you sold a gun and regret ever doing it.
Another thing I have run into is asking 4 different shooters, all HOF guys, they will all tell you something different. Now, are all of them telling you the truth? Sometimes it is hard to tell.
Joe Hynes
Joe. I would hope it is the truth. These guys seem pretty honest.
I have a question for you. Why don't you shoot at WWCCA?
I over heard another MI shooter, who does not shoot at WWCCA. Say it's too hard or maybe it was too hard to beat Joe.........???
I wonder about these things.
I have a question for you. Why don't you shoot at WWCCA?
I over heard another MI shooter, who does not shoot at WWCCA. Say it's too hard or maybe it was too hard to beat Joe.........???
I wonder about these things.
A few years ago. At the last Tournament at WWCCA, that year. I witnessed Joe Krupa help 3 shooters. Joe reloaded for the wife. Joe did not shoot.
Helping people out. Is that not part of "paying the dues"?
I have on occasion talked on the phone with a few big names.....Don't want to say who....some people might think, the bullet makers were talking instead of working. So they got their bullets a little later than they want.
My point. We shoot with some of the nicest people in the world. The information/stuff is out there.
The hard part is putting it all together.....
Helping people out. Is that not part of "paying the dues"?
I have on occasion talked on the phone with a few big names.....Don't want to say who....some people might think, the bullet makers were talking instead of working. So they got their bullets a little later than they want.
My point. We shoot with some of the nicest people in the world. The information/stuff is out there.
The hard part is putting it all together.....
I don't really know why I haven't been to WW. I know right now I'm not gonna shoot as much this year. It is getting to be more like a job than fun. I usually try and practice a LOT, sometimes 4 or 5 times week. It is easy for me since I have a nice range just a few feet out my backdoor. This might be a blessing or a curse depending on how you look at it. You can shoot a lot, but it also costs a lot to shoot that much. I bet I shot at home about 100 days this year, and I still can't see where I made any improvement, this sure gets discouraging. I had better scores 6 years ago.
As far as talking with Joe Krupa, he is a wealth of knowledge as he has been down the road we all want to travel. He has never been unwilling to help me anytime I asked. He came up this way a few years ago and got together with a few of us and answered all of our questions, critiqued our equipment and let me shoot the gun he brought along. I tried to buy that gun but he would NOT sell it to me. He did not want it in the area and have to shoot against it.
The one issue I ran into this year is equipment. Each time I would buy a new barrel or some bullets I would hear that they weren't any good. Nope, those are junk you need the other lot, that is what I heard, hum??? Bullets, barrels, scopes, triggers, heck even the sand in my front bag it seemed like.
One should not be concerned with shooting against the best shooters, as it will make you a better shooter. This holds true in just about anything in life, surround yourself with good people and learn from them. Dang, my dad would be proud to hear me say that I bet.
Joe Hynes
As far as talking with Joe Krupa, he is a wealth of knowledge as he has been down the road we all want to travel. He has never been unwilling to help me anytime I asked. He came up this way a few years ago and got together with a few of us and answered all of our questions, critiqued our equipment and let me shoot the gun he brought along. I tried to buy that gun but he would NOT sell it to me. He did not want it in the area and have to shoot against it.
The one issue I ran into this year is equipment. Each time I would buy a new barrel or some bullets I would hear that they weren't any good. Nope, those are junk you need the other lot, that is what I heard, hum??? Bullets, barrels, scopes, triggers, heck even the sand in my front bag it seemed like.
One should not be concerned with shooting against the best shooters, as it will make you a better shooter. This holds true in just about anything in life, surround yourself with good people and learn from them. Dang, my dad would be proud to hear me say that I bet.
Joe Hynes
Well little Joe...is having a Army Lieut. Col for a therapist a bad idea????
Does the color yellow make you sad?????? WHY DONT WE just Jug on over to Manbey pamby land and get some self-confidence you jack wagon!!!!!!
You don't go to a lot of matches. You have a range in your back yard and you're bitching about your performance. However you came in the top 20 at the SS this year??????
BENCHREST shooter PLEEEEEESAAASZZZESSS! Get a grip!
Bart
Crybaby!!! Tissue???
Harsh but funny! Sorry! Love yA man! Reality check here! Deal with it!