Barrel Tuners

Borden Tuner

Boyd Allen said:
Nice pic. What is the thread and weight? Also, what is the total range of adjustment that you have needed?
Click to expand...

Boyd

Tuner weighs about 4 ounces. It is threaded .9x32 tpi. I usually thread barrel 1 1/2 inches. It is numbered around the periphery for reference.

It has 4 holes 90 degrees apart. Use set screws or nylon screws in 2 of the 4 holes 90 degrees apart to "load" the unit against the threads. the nylon screws are ugly-BUT they allow for easy adjustment while sitting at the bench.

Jim
 
Tuners

The two hottest shooters in The Gulf Coast Region at this time are Charles Huckeba and Gene Bukys, the latter having the added pedigree of being the reigning World 100-200 yard Benchrest Champion.

They both use tuners, about 4 ounces worth on a typical 82 ounce barrel. Their tuners also have somesort of dampenning feature. Their method is to tune the barrel with the tuner as best it will shoot, and then leave it alone, tweeking the powder charge a tad one way or another as the conditions dictate. With 133, this usually means watching the humidity.

This method seems to work quite well for the short range game.......jackie
 
Interesting Jackie,

I didn't know they used a tuner in that method. I know Larry Scharnhorst and Rodney Brown sets their load and then adjust the tuner at the bench.

Which way have you found works best. I know you have adjusted a tuner at the bench successfully. Have you tried the other method or kind of a hybrid of both.

Billy Stevens was telling me at the Hog Roast that he is setting a tuner up for a railgun barrel. Something like 2.5 lbs to start....big ol' chunk is how he put it.

I'm getting tired of swimming up stream, guess I'm going to have to get in the boat.

Hovis
 
Started this post by saying :eek:"This will probably open a can of worms", and O boy has it ever.

NOW:::::

Does anyone have any experience witht the Gene Beggs tuners.:confused:

If so how about some details.

Any photos of it would alos be appreciated?:)

Thanx

Shinny
 
kevin

I tried a tuner on my Rail, and it was a disaster.

Here is the problem. As long as you shot slow, picking the condition, it would shoot fantastic. But, when you really started to run, the tuner, (it seems), would not let the barrel settle down, resulting in in groups that you would think came out of a Factory 30-30.

This is not a problem with a Bag Gun because regardless of how fast you can shoot, the barrelstill has timeto settle.

I may be all wet as to what caused this, but it happens. And not just on my Rail. We installed a tuner, about 18 ounces worth, on Bill Sturms Rail and if you ran it as fast as the Rail would let you, it would shoot 5/8 groups at 100 yards. Big, round globs.

As for the way I do tuners, when I first put a barrel on, I stick my pet load in and tune it to where the barrel is shooting as good as I think it will shoot. I then do as Gene and Charles, I just tweek the powder if need be. In reality, we are probably using a tuner as a dampener as much as anything. Sort of broadens the load window.

I have been known to adjust the tuner at the line, but only as a last resort.

The only time I will change the load with 133 is if the humidity falls below 40 percent. Then, it is usually time to go up a little, or a lot, depending on how the Rifle is acting. We have found that with 133, when it starts that goofy stuff that it does when the humidity falls that low, the tunerwill not take it out........jackie
 
As stated above, yes, Shinny we do have experience with them.

Here are a few pictures Dad took of a Beggs tuner I installed on my 6.5BR.

Below is a Picture Of the Tuner I installed on the rifle we shared to win the IBS Varmint Hunter Score Nationals with a .30 BR. Fitting the Beggs on a hunter rifle requires sleeving the end of the barrel, and then threading the sleeve to hold the tuner. It worked for us just the way Gene explained it would.

Below that Is a Beggs tuner I fitted to my Anschutz .22 that I am going to use this summer with some local rimfire BR friends. It works well at home, we will see how it does in match conditions. After that I will report back to Gene, this one is a bit of a test all is well so far
 

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These are a couple photos of our $69.95 tuner.
IMG_2037.jpg

IMG_2042-1.jpg

You might ask Ralph Stewart if he was using a tuner when he set a new World Record at the Hog Roast at 200yds. a .140+ aggregate.
Butch
 
You Bet

Ralph probably uses the most scientific approach to tuner use as any I have seen. I think he keeps a record on EVERYthing.

Just think, it was just a few years ago when a few of us brave souls dared to suggest that Tuners would be a worthwhile addition to Competitive Benchrest. I think we have come a long way..........jackie
 
Not to

hi jack the thread but I wonder how Gene makes weight with his setup? Tuner, Frozen scope, fair sized barrel?

I had the fortune of picking up a new 45X Leupold frozen by Gene with mount. It was mounted and never a shot fired from the rifle as the fellow just is not shooting any more. Living in Canada and it being up in Canada I could not refuse. All the work was done. I always said I would buy a Bukys frozen scope if I ever had a scope go south on me. Mine as far as I know was fine but I got what I wanted and like to think scope issues will be null and void for me.

So how does he make weight???????

Calvin
 
Speaking of Gene's mounts,

A friend made me some very nice elevation adjusting screws which are manipulated with either a 3/16 or 8 mm opened end wrench. In my estimation this is a significant improvement and makes the mount a lot more user friendly.

No, absolutely not, my friend WILL NOT make any more of them :D
 
Calvin

Gene's Scope Set Up is not really any heavier than a standard 45 x Leupold and rings. Removing the turrets as part of the freezing allows for the extra weight of the external adjustable mount.

His tuner weighs about 4 ounces. With a Scoville Stock, you can use a 82 ounce barrel and make weight with no problems.........jackie
 
Boyd Allen

I tried a tuner on my Rail, and it was a disaster.

Here is the problem. As long as you shot slow, picking the condition, it would shoot fantastic. But, when you really started to run, the tuner, (it seems), would not let the barrel settle down, resulting in in groups that you would think came out of a Factory 30-30.

This is not a problem with a Bag Gun because regardless of how fast you can shoot, the barrelstill has timeto settle.

I may be all wet as to what caused this, but it happens. And not just on my Rail. We installed a tuner, about 18 ounces worth, on Bill Sturms Rail and if you ran it as fast as the Rail would let you, it would shoot 5/8 groups at 100 yards. Big, round globs.

Boyd
This is exactly what you would expect from a tuner that is too light.When Bill Calfee was allowed to post here he told us exactly what to look for and why you wanted the weight a given distance out in front.In Jackies description about his shots flying all over the place due to the muzzle whipping around from the weght on the end not settling down between shots it would seem his muzzle is not at a node.
I don't know how his rail is set-up but assuming a 1.450 barrel 27-28 inches long and a action with a 1 inch tenon and a barrel block 2-3 inches in front of that I get 23-24 inches minus whatever length his bedding takes up in the block.If the bedding inside the barrel block was 4-8 inches he would essentially have a barrel 1.450 in diameter by 15-19 inches long.Assuming you read what Bill Calfee said years ago while everyone here was quickly becoming a member of "The Funny People" I would say the 18 ounces didn't shoot very well at all and neither would 28 ounces.
I also think the poster who described what he heard from Gene Beggs was dead on in how a tuner works.
Of course 5 years ago I spent most of my posts asking the very same people who now like tuners to let Bill speak to no avail.
Waterboy
 
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The Funny People:

I have found it interesting through the years that nothing new works until it becomes someone elses idea. All of a sudden everyone has the answers for everything they have just discovered. It never ceases to amaze me.

Very few people ever say they were wrong in the past about things such as tuners, weighing charges, measuring bullets; the list goes on - - --
 
Pete Wass
I ddn't find the "Funny People' funny back then as they seemed to violate Wilbur's rule that "nobody gets hurt".I find them even less funny now as many of them now claim it was there way of doing it or there way of setting it all up that made it all work.HogWash!!!!!!
Only Francis admits he was wrong all along so despite what he said years ago atleast he was man enough to set the record straight in another post and I admire that.
Bill said long ago he would be given no credit at all and he was even correct on that.
Waterboy
 
Lynn

What we finally surmised was the barrel picked up a secondary vibration when the top of Bill's Rail was place against the stop. This happenned just about at the exact same time as the next round was being released. As I said, when shooting slow, the thing shot great. Only when taking advantage of the one thing that sets a Rail Gun apart from a Bag Gun did the problem arise.

I failed to mention that I made a brass tuner that weighd 34 ounces, and it did the same thing. You could tune the barrel to where it shot very good, only to have it spray shots when shot as fast as the Rail would allow.

The solution to this would probably be to incorporate a return to battery that does not feature a positive stop.Jerry Hensler designed one for his light weight Rail idea that had two opposing springs. The Rail Top was self centering after each shot with no abrupt stop. But, he designed the Top around that system. I never couldfigure out a way to incorporate it into a more conventional Rail Top.........jackie
 
Tuner Thoughts

I am on year three now of using a tuner for group and score (Benchrest 100 & 200 yards) – just a beginner by most measurements of time in this sport. As a relatively new shooter I’ve had some level of success using tuners as one of my tools and have formed several opinions.
1. I would recommend anyone interesting in tuners or weights read Varmint Als web site (several times). Suspect he has one of the best published works on-line to explain barrel vibrations and the impact of adding weight to the end of a barrel.
2. Tuners are not a guarantee of small groups! Tuners/weights in general will improve a guns performance but will not make up for a multitude of other possible issues.
3. Tune your gun and components before you play with a tuner. If you cannot establish Benchrest aggs. without the tuner I think you’re wasting your time. Fix your other problems first.
4. Tuners are not a quick fix but require a lot of range time and testing - work!
a. Document everything.
b. Determine how you will track your results (Humidity, Temperature, Density Altitude or Phase of the Moon!) but it does not help to have a tuner and not know what to do.
c. You must run multiple ladder tests measuring impact point, vertical displacement and group size. Due to so many variables you must establish a trend to understand the results and this requires multiple tests.
d. Testing is best performed in a tunnel for consistent results or pick your best range condition days to test.
e. The requirements on tuner weight and placement change! What works for CF, Short Range Benchrest, Long Range, etc. is not the same. Gun configuration (barrel length/taper, gun weight, etc.) may require a different solution.
RESULTS MAY VARY!
I read every thread regarding tuners published here. My hope each time is to gain some knowledge from others efforts in testing their specific configuration and determine how to apply this to my tuning system. Perhaps there is room for me to improve or I’ve over looked some technical detail – nothing in this sport is perfect. I would not expect any time soon to see the “tuning bible” published that answers to all our questions. Each shooters style, gun, components are different and you must find “your” solution. My goal at every event is to match my shooting skills against others and be certain my equipment is not the limiting factor. The wind remains the great equalizer!
Tuners/Weights are not the solution to all your problems, just another tool you can add to your bag at the range.
Just my opinion.
MKS
 
So Lynn,
Do you think that you have enough experience and Bill input to calculate your barrel length, contour, and tuner configuration for a well balanced 10.5# 6PPC that works like a Calfee rimfire, or will it be cut and try? Care to make any predictions?:D
 
Boyd Allen said:
Nice pic. What is the thread and weight? Also, what is the total range of adjustment that you have needed?

Jim Borden said:
Boyd

Tuner weighs about 4 ounces. It is threaded .9x32 tpi. I usually thread barrel 1 1/2 inches. It is numbered around the periphery for reference.

It has 4 holes 90 degrees apart. Use set screws or nylon screws in 2 of the 4 holes 90 degrees apart to "load" the unit against the threads. the nylon screws are ugly-BUT they allow for easy adjustment while sitting at the bench.

Jim
Click to expand...
Click to expand...

The blue gun below weighs in a just a touch over 10 pounds as you see it below. Jim and the others at the Borden Rifles facility built this one for me, she will make weight with a Leupold but I've only shot it with the Weaver. It's a 30BR and I shoot it free recoil. Trust me, it will wake you up when you pull the trigger. However, it shoots great! The tuner is very easy to adjust and is quite predictable. You may find it of interest how far back the tuner is placed.

Adrian

Blue%20Borden%20LV.jpg
 
Back to Shinny's question

Yes there is experience with gene Begg's Tuner, Butch Lambert Tuner, Jim Borden Tuner, Jackie Schmidt tuner, Calfee tuner, etc.

I have used my own, Butch's and gene's. They all work. In fact my barrels are threaded so I can go back and forth between mine and the One I have that Butch made me-both work--but with different load. Butch's tuner id in front of the muzzle and from my experience it took smaller adjustments to make a change in tune than mine which is behind the muzzle. Just different strokes for different folks. The bottom line is the science works. Just take a look at the different ones and decide which one you wish to use and spend the time putting bullets down the barrel and figure one out.

No need for any of us to get all worked up about it.

Jim
 
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