Another neck turning thread.

Speaking of neck turners

Look at the name on this turner!



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I firmly believe the 10EE is the Rolls Royce of accuracy. Unless you can find one of the few 30" between center model, it has too long of a headstock for barreling. They can be bought at a reasonable price if you have patience. I use a 6913 Clausing 14X48 to chamber in the headstock. I had to make a cathead for both sides of the headstock to be able to do a 21" barrel. I really like the M300 Harrison and the Rockwell lathes. A Southbend of proper size will work.
I sold my Jaco that came from TJ's estate years ago. It was well made, but I felt it was too heavy to hold and turn. If you are able to put it in a vise it would work better.
 
Butch Lambert said:
I firmly believe the 10EE is the Rolls Royce of accuracy. Unless you can find one of the few 30" between center model, it has too long of a headstock for barreling. They can be bought at a reasonable price if you have patience. I use a 6913 Clausing 14X48 to chamber in the headstock. I had to make a cathead for both sides of the headstock to be able to do a 21" barrel. I really like the M300 Harrison and the Rockwell lathes. A Southbend of proper size will work.
I sold my Jaco that came from TJ's estate years ago. It was well made, but I felt it was too heavy to hold and turn. If you are able to put it in a vise it would work better.
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I have a Will Burt tall jaw Versa Vise and a Columbian standard jaw Gyro Vise, I use them for pistolsmithing extensively, I don't know how I got by without them. They both have 13oz saddle leather soft jaws, and the tall jaw one is the one I use for tool holding (sear jigs, etc) so it will hold the JACO.

I'm trying to find a lathe that will do what the 10EE will do as far as tolerances, but won't prevent me from doing barrels. If I can build a 1911 to group 10 @ 50 yards into 2", then I should be able to learn how to accurately chamber and thread a rifle barrel. I'm moving to central PA later this year, so I'll start really looking for a lathe around then. For now I'm doing my research. If I could find a 30" bed Monarch, would it be safe to say I could do barrel work on it?
 
Jim, I wouldn't want a worn out lathe, but if you chamber in the headstock all that is important is the spindle bearings. Cutting and threading the tenon will be no problem as a worn out set of ways will have a miniscule amount of taper in a 1"-1.250" tenon. The spindle bore on a HLV-H is too small to chamber in a headstock and the Rivett's headstock is too wide. I love the 10EE because 99% of most people's work is less than 13" swing and shorter than 20". Another lathe can handle the barreling. 30" 10EE would be nice if you were chambering in a steady rest. They're very very few out there and command a premium price.
 
Butch Lambert said:
Jim, I wouldn't want a worn out lathe, but if you chamber in the headstock all that is important is the spindle bearings. Cutting and threading the tenon will be no problem as a worn out set of ways will have a miniscule amount of taper in a 1"-1.250" tenon. The spindle bore on a HLV-H is too small to chamber in a headstock and the Rivett's headstock is too wide. I love the 10EE because 99% of most people's work is less than 13" swing and shorter than 20". Another lathe can handle the barreling. 30" 10EE would be nice if you were chambering in a steady rest. They're very very few out there and command a premium price.
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Just checking my reading comprehension skills here...

So if I found a 30" 10EE with spindle bearings in good to excellent condition and good ways, then I'd be able to do what I'm looking to do with a steady rest? Threading, chambering, and crowning barrels, and truing random project actions like the Mauser sitting in a bag waiting for a barrel under my bench?

Thank you for your advice, I'm all ears if you're feeling inclined to share more!

Jim
 
I have taken scrap pieces of pipe and some purpose-bought pieces, and made up a few "butt fittings" and I extend barrels routinely so that they'll fit through the headstock and engage the catshead.


In other words, I don't see headstock dimension to be a limiting factor for chambering through the headstock. I recently dialed in an 8" pistol barrel, through the headstock, chambered like buttahh, with a boring tool....... so if the Monarch 10EE is really the be-all and end-all of "precision" then IMO letting the headstock dimension be a part of your buying decision is inappropriate.

If you can't get the cow to water ya got's ta carry the water to the cow......

al
 
When someone is asking a question about a benchrest situation on this forum I am assuming they are not talking about threading a water pipe or taking a cow to water.

In chambering a BENCHREST barrel the breech bore and the muzzle bore need to be dialed in as close as possible, at least within 0.0005”, IMO.

A good BENCHREST chambered barrel, when screwed on an action/scope/barrel assembly that has been zeroed, that just installed barrel should print within about 2” or less of the just removed barrel if it is given its best chance to be a competitive barrel.

The Monarch 10AEE lathe does not allow the above to be accomplished unless the finished barrel is about 28” or so long. I agree that the 10EE has very precise spindle bearings and they should be since replacement cost of that bearing pack is now in the $20,000 range. The South Bend Heavy 10 runs on an oil film in bronze bushings which makes for a much smoother setup and results in a better workpiece finish. Note that precision cylindrical grinders use the bronze bushing/oil film method and not ball or roller bearings.
 
FWIW, YouTube has a bunch of videos. Just search for "case neck turning".


Edit- This video from S&S Precision (Speedys old shop) shows building a long range benchrest rifle using a South Bend Heavy 10. IIRC, Speedy had more than one Heavy 10.

Many HOF shooters use the Heavy 10. One of the most famous benchrest gunsmiths, ever, Seeley Masker, had 3 Heavy 10's, His son Jerry still owns them.

The most recent IBS 600 yard group record, set by Rodney Wagner, that barrel was chambered on a Heavy 10 of which Rodney owns 2.
Rodney set 600 yard IBS records of 0.336" and a score record of 50. You have to admit, a 0.336" at 600 yards proves something!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1opz3d97iY8&app=desktop
 
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JerrySharrett said:
FWIW, YouTube has a bunch of videos. Just search for "case neck turning".


Edit- This video from S&S Precision (Speedys old shop) shows building a long range benchrest rifle using a South Bend Heavy 10. IIRC, Speedy had more than one Heavy 10.

Many HOF shooters use the Heavy 10. One of the most famous benchrest gunsmiths, ever, Seeley Masker, had 3 Heavy 10's, His son Jerry still owns them.

The most recent IBS 600 yard group record, set by Rodney Wagner, that barrel was chambered on a Heavy 10 of which Rodney owns 2.
Rodney set 600 yard IBS records of 0.336" and a score record of 50. You have to admit, a 0.336" at 600 yards proves something!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1opz3d97iY8&app=desktop
Click to expand...

I had been looking for a Heavy 10 before someone told me about the Monarch, but if the Heavy 10 can match it in precision, and is more affordable to buy and maintain, it wouldn't make a whole lot of sense not to buy a Heavy 10, other than the history of the 10EE and it's just plain good lookin'.
 
JerrySharrett said:
When someone is asking a question about a benchrest situation on this forum I am assuming they are not talking about threading a water pipe or taking a cow to water.

In chambering a BENCHREST barrel the breech bore and the muzzle bore need to be dialed in as close as possible, at least within 0.0005”, IMO.

A good BENCHREST chambered barrel, when screwed on an action/scope/barrel assembly that has been zeroed, that just installed barrel should print within about 2” or less of the just removed barrel if it is given its best chance to be a competitive barrel.

The Monarch 10AEE lathe does not allow the above to be accomplished unless the finished barrel is about 28” or so long. I agree that the 10EE has very precise spindle bearings and they should be since replacement cost of that bearing pack is now in the $20,000 range. The South Bend Heavy 10 runs on an oil film in bronze bushings which makes for a much smoother setup and results in a better workpiece finish. Note that precision cylindrical grinders use the bronze bushing/oil film method and not ball or roller bearings.
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Jerry, I use the pipe because your way is TOO CRUDE for me..... I would no more chamber between centers on a real gun than I'd jam a "roughing reamer" in and eat out a chamber under pressure. This isn't a production shop, the fact that you can chamber a barrel in three minutes doesn't make me feel all fuzzy inside.

Barrel I crowned last night wandered almost 30thou..... $350.00 blank...... If I'd have set it up your way for a chambering job the chamber would have come out over a thou over-sized...... OR, if I'd have pre-bored it the throat would have been .002 off center to the bore!!!


Not for me your old school ideas :)

pipes are good, it's all in how you use them :)

Pipes ("barrel extensions" if you will) allow one to chamber even a short barrel well through the headstock of a larger lathe.

For any of you interested in real precision I can post pix.

For those of you looking for "better ways to get both ends lined up" I got nuttin...... although I do have a standoff extension bracket on the backside of my headstock which holds a test indicator..... for roughing in to center of the catshead.
 
Al,

I've been reading and looking most of the day, and to my mind, chambering with a cathead and spider on the outboard of the headstock seems like it would produce a good chamber. With a cathead that allows two points of adjustment, would I be correct in thinking that it would support a barrel too short to reach the spider adequately to thread and chamber? Most of my barrels fall into the 28-30" range, though shorter will eventually happen.

I am very interested in seeing pictures, I won't be getting a lathe until the wife and I move later this year so in the meantime I'm trying to learn as much as I can.
 
Jim Cox said:
Al,

I've been reading and looking most of the day, and to my mind, chambering with a cathead and spider on the outboard of the headstock seems like it would produce a good chamber. With a cathead that allows two points of adjustment, would I be correct in thinking that it would support a barrel too short to reach the spider adequately to thread and chamber? Most of my barrels fall into the 28-30" range, though shorter will eventually happen.

I am very interested in seeing pictures, I won't be getting a lathe until the wife and I move later this year so in the meantime I'm trying to learn as much as I can.
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I'll try to get some pix up....

I've really grown to love thid "thru the headstock" method of chambering, I can now easily make 3 or 5 or ten chambers identical enough to share brass day to day. This simply was not possible back when I was in gunsmithing school. Times have changed. Methods have changed. Enough that I bought another lathe, someting I said I'd never do. Enough that nowadays what with measuring and slugging and lapping I can evaluate a barrel where ten yrs ago it was just luck of the draw.....I look back at "State Of The Art" from ten yrs ago and cringe today. The idea of just guessing where the throat is on a long case like a 30-06, or jamming a piloted reamer in to "follow the bore" is what turned me away from chambering yrs ago.

Now I don't guess...... I KNOW where the barrel's pointed, because I POINTED IT THERE!! :)

My next really big project/purchase is a jackable chuck....... I can't wait to be able to chuck die blanks and actions and even short barrels up and dial them to straight.


So..... my "pipes" are the result of my subsonic projects. I developed a need for BR chambering methods in short 16" barrels.

It's a fun time to be alive :)

al
 
mistaken terminology

I made a mistake, I've been using "catshead" where I meant "spider"...... anyways, that adjustable screw setup on the outboard end of the tailstock that allows one to dial in the barrel so that one can decide between setting the muzzle straight in front of the chamber, or not....


my mistake


BTW, my first "barrel extension" was a "double-ended action" where I made a 1.350D dummy action threaded for Rem700 on one end and Sav110 on the other so that I could go over to the rack and grab up a barrel and screw it in for an extension, for crowning and fitting brakes. The next was a hunk of stock threaded for the muzzle...... a "12inch long bloop tube" or a "12in muzzle brake" made JUST to reach the spider.....


Now I've got an assortment of extensions....


al
 
Excellent! I like the way you think. I'm very interested to see these pictures.

Way off my original question, but pertinent to the course this thread has taken....
There's a 16x30 Pratt & Whitney lathe for sale locally, no good pictures or model, I'm assuming a B or C, for $2k. Lathe has been in storage, and is not under power. I've read good things, and it seems like a common spindle bore for the 16" is 2", which obviously give me plenty of room to get even a large dia heavy gun barrel through there for chambering. Would something like that be worth the gamble to snatch up? In the event the ways are all boogered and need to be planed and scraped, and the spindle bearings need to be replaced (as I understand it the B model uses ball bearings and the C uses angular contact bearings), would it end up being a an over-engineered garage decoration, or a doable project to restore to good working condition?

I've also found a few Monarch engine lathes in the 78" range, which I'm assuming are on the order of barreling a 105mm....or should I consider those as well?

For the same reason I decided on a JACO, I'm in at as much for the history and uniqueness as I am the finished product. Thank you for all the help and information, I'm learning a lot here.

ETA:

I'm pretty sure it's a Model C.
 
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Thanks for the pictures Jerry, I've saved them for future reference.
 
Jim Cox said:
Excellent! I like the way you think. I'm very interested to see these pictures.

Way off my original question, but pertinent to the course this thread has taken....
There's a 16x30 Pratt & Whitney lathe for sale locally, no good pictures or model, I'm assuming a B or C, for $2k. Lathe has been in storage, and is not under power. I've read good things, and it seems like a common spindle bore for the 16" is 2", which obviously give me plenty of room to get even a large dia heavy gun barrel through there for chambering. Would something like that be worth the gamble to snatch up? In the event the ways are all boogered and need to be planed and scraped, and the spindle bearings need to be replaced (as I understand it the B model uses ball bearings and the C uses angular contact bearings), would it end up being a an over-engineered garage decoration, or a doable project to restore to good working condition?

I've also found a few Monarch engine lathes in the 78" range, which I'm assuming are on the order of barreling a 105mm....or should I consider those as well?

For the same reason I decided on a JACO, I'm in at as much for the history and uniqueness as I am the finished product. Thank you for all the help and information, I'm learning a lot here.

ETA:

I'm pretty sure it's a Model C.
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I have no idea.... this is Jerry's domain. Jerry Sharrett is a real machinist, a machinery guy's machinery guy. I am not. Jerry has ate, drank and slept with metalworking equipment longer than I've been alive. I'm disagreeing with Jerry's chambering method, not with his ability to make chips. I can't be in the same room with Jerry Sharrett when it comes to machining parts. I do this only because I've been shown that barrel blanks are CROOKED, that unless you can run into the bore 3-4-5 inches and actually stick a tool on the throat/leade area, you are guessing. Jerry's setup, as in the pictures is what I use to rough in my blanks before checking them for runout ....kinda'.... The only thing I do different is that I run an outboard test indicator into the bore, a longstem indicator in past the lapping bell. The setup in the pictures using a tapered, piloted "Range Rod" counts on the lapping bell being concentric. They're not concentric to the bore, ever. The setup pictured already has at least a half thou of lapping bell eccentricity error PLUS the slop in the bushing PLUS the linear runout from the crooked bore, PLUS it's a plunger indic good for half a thou....... Don't blow smoke up my skirt about "50 millionths" (a STUPID-a$$ measure if there ever was one!) when there's a 5-dollar plunger setting on a rod in the bore...... And that's just the outboard end. on the inboard end, the working end, there's been no attempt made to find the throat. There can't be, even on a PPC it's iffy and you can't run an indicator into a long chamber. The only reason BR gunsmith's continue to get by with this method is that short, heavy BR barrels and super short BR chambers act to minimize runout error stack. Plus, on a PPC it's perty easy to reach in and stick an indicator on the throat to check it, once you've whacked off the lapping bell, and opened up the chamber.......BUT..... this is only "getting by" it's still not good enough for me.

I do what I do because I don't trust anything...... like die blanks. The way they're "done" is by putting the blank in a collet and reaming out a hole for your usage. Problem is, now that I have measured up 15-20 die blanks I find them to vary in three critical dimensions. The bores vary in size and are not straight, either to themselves or to the od.

BARRELS ARE BENT!

Once you realize this your choices become more about what you're willing to live with than the kind of machinery you own.

I bought a Grizzly because the owner of the company came on this forum and asked for specs to design an adequate gunsmith's hobby lathe, then offered the lathe for literally 1/10 the price of anything comparable. The G4003G is not a junk lathe. In fact many of the people who tear them up are comparing them to "real lathes" with prices from $20,000.00 to 200,000.00. But it's THE ONLY small hobby lathe I'm comfortable recommending. To real people with real budgets. Shiraz, the owner/builder/designer of this lathe and of South Bend Company stands behind it. It has an upgraded headstock bearing and will cut and thread glassy smooth as long as the operator can do his part.

I bought into Gordy Gritters' method of indicating because it allows me to actually isolate variables that the standard methods do not. and because it's completely repeatable AND because it agrees with measurements taken with a test indicator AND because it allows one to indicate BOTH lands and grooves AND.... I could go on and on. And all the detractors have got is "but it reads off the top of the lands and that stupid rod is probably riding up the bore, climbing and twisting and flexing and....."


But it doesn't.


And the results speak for themselves.... I can make 5 chambers that match now. And make a die to match that chamber. And make another matching chamber 20yrs later.

And I can make a hunting rifle shoot dots with hunting bullets, not just with short-range cheater bullets.

And my cases really DO last forever.

facts stand alone

al
 
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