J
J. Pendergraft
Guest
Lynn,
This could be very dangerous in a large case with lots of slow burning powder. Don't do this unless you have consulted with knowledgeable folks that know what they are talking about.
Al's 6x47L
- Thread starter Law Dawg
- Start date
Lynn,
This could be very dangerous in a large case with lots of slow burning powder. Don't do this unless you have consulted with knowledgeable folks that know what they are talking about.
Noooooooo!
Lynn:
I though you were just kidding us. PLEASE DON'T DO IT! For one thing, if David Tubb found that the small primer would not light the 6XC then it will cause big problems in your brass. Second, this can be very dangerous. Third, there is no up side on a risk-benefit basis.
Jim Hardy
Lynn:
I though you were just kidding us. PLEASE DON'T DO IT! For one thing, if David Tubb found that the small primer would not light the 6XC then it will cause big problems in your brass. Second, this can be very dangerous. Third, there is no up side on a risk-benefit basis.
Jim Hardy
My caseheads are perfectly square and perpendicular to centerline ......... ALWAYS
As per culling through firing, I don't know. They all group well.
al
I'm not one who somehow believes that small primer pockets are the cure for all ills.....I don't believe that small primers are a good mix for large cases and slow powder. There's no DANGER involved, they just might not light. I've known folks who've bushed flashholes. Back when I first found this board I spent a few months on the subject and have revisited it several times. I feel strongly about it, I did spend over a year corresponding with the folks at Kaltron-Pettibone BEGGING to interrupt a run of cases and buy them with no flashhole at all..... I think that certain combo's would benefit from being able to play with flashhole size.
But then they came out with the 6.5X47.... HALLELUIAHHHHH!!!!
This whole "not lighting" thing gets 'WAYYY out of hand.
The "problem" originated back when certain folks talked Remington into making this special run of "URBR" brass. It sucked. It wouldn't light. IT gave huge ES. URBR cases have a small primer but a huge flashhole. They don't work well with slow powders in full length cases. The Carmichel/Huntington CHeetah was a flop. BUT..... ((((( BTW, for anyone who doesn't think URBR brass sucks, I've got 4-5 boxes of the stuff I'll sell. MY case is HERE
)))))I remember back when the lengthened BR's were being developed all the nay-sayers were adamant about "ignition problems"...... same with the 6.5X47L. Back when Tubb was making up his cases this discussion raged back and forth with a whole bunch of folks making dire predictions about the 6X47....... "It'll NEVER work!!"
Sorry folks, suck it up....
The predictions are OVER.Right now there are still a whole bunch of folks claiming that "The Dasher is a real humdinger but the 6X47 doesn't shoot as well".....
Hogwash.
al
Al, what yo been drink'n
Al:
Now wait just a second, please. Are you saying that a small rifle primer will consistantly light a wildcat based on RWS 375 H&H brass (often used to make the 300 Ackley with about 95 grains of H20 capacity)? In cool weather, CCI Large Rifle BR primers often have a hard time with powders like RL-25.
Is there not a danger with low pressure rounds? I have seen them suck in like flutes on the case body at Hawks Ridge. Would a small rifle primer in a 95 grain capacity case create a hang fire? Would it create a momentary low pressure condition followed by a high pressure spike? Why would anyone even want to even try that (sorry Lynn) as an accuracy benefit?
You are the "fire form brass guru" so I am listening. Help me out here as I am reaching for the bottle and I don't drink -- yet.
Jim
Al:
Now wait just a second, please. Are you saying that a small rifle primer will consistantly light a wildcat based on RWS 375 H&H brass (often used to make the 300 Ackley with about 95 grains of H20 capacity)? In cool weather, CCI Large Rifle BR primers often have a hard time with powders like RL-25.
Is there not a danger with low pressure rounds? I have seen them suck in like flutes on the case body at Hawks Ridge. Would a small rifle primer in a 95 grain capacity case create a hang fire? Would it create a momentary low pressure condition followed by a high pressure spike? Why would anyone even want to even try that (sorry Lynn) as an accuracy benefit?
You are the "fire form brass guru" so I am listening. Help me out here as I am reaching for the bottle and I don't drink -- yet.
Jim
Hawks Ridge
Lynn:
Wow, you are really into the ignition issue -- with some backup history. Very impressive. On the new project, I like the location of the tree.
As to Hawks Ridge, I have seen everything. I am sure you know of one famous shooter who pulled the bullets on his 300 Ackley with his teeth, dumped out a little powder until it looked OK, and re-seated his bullets by hammering them in with a TV remote (aiming fluid was present). He won his relay and I think the monthly match.
Make sure you hide behind that tree and keep us informed on the tests.
Jim "still in shock" Hardy
P.S. As to the primer pockets on the 300 Ackleys with Norma brass, I have seen blown primers several times. I guess their super glue just quit working that day. I am a little different about Hawks Ridge. I don't believe what I read -- only what I have seen. I love that place.
Lynn:
Wow, you are really into the ignition issue -- with some backup history. Very impressive. On the new project, I like the location of the tree.
As to Hawks Ridge, I have seen everything. I am sure you know of one famous shooter who pulled the bullets on his 300 Ackley with his teeth, dumped out a little powder until it looked OK, and re-seated his bullets by hammering them in with a TV remote (aiming fluid was present). He won his relay and I think the monthly match.
Make sure you hide behind that tree and keep us informed on the tests.
Jim "still in shock" Hardy
P.S. As to the primer pockets on the 300 Ackleys with Norma brass, I have seen blown primers several times. I guess their super glue just quit working that day. I am a little different about Hawks Ridge. I don't believe what I read -- only what I have seen. I love that place.
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Nope, no drinkin' here neiyther Jim me' man
I'm absolutely NOT advocating small primers in large cases, never have and never will. The previous post in answer to Lynn should clearly state that. BUT.... in cases up to and including the .308, and when using faster powders the ignition is flawless PROVIDED you have a small flashhole. Most often any old flashhole will work but the problems with the CHeetah were because of the large flashhole, NOT the small primer. And in the CHeetah and similar cases I've never heard of ANY problems with weak ignition being dangerous.
Huge overbore cases coupled with slow-burning powders absolutely DO have their own unique problems. This whole problem set is why I've taken a completely different route than he traditional one. My builds run counter to much that was winning back when "Precision Shooting @ 1000 Yards" came out. My deal is to modify and apply short-range BR techniques to long-range stuff.
I use the bolt-through-the-shoulder hang-fire story every couple months in my Hunter Ed class. And I've repeatedly stated publicly my aversion to huge case/slow powder cartridges. BUT, I can't expect others to know that
I was entirely remiss to bypass the usual warnings. My mind was fixated on the subject at hand, "Al's 6X47"........and others like it.6BR, 6X47L and 300WSM....... all "similar" ......... I DON'T LIKE traditional over-bore slow-powder stuff, it scares me! Give me high but predictable/repeatable pressure every time over those thunderboomers..... And please note one salient fact, as far as my choice to chamber fat and such, I'M NOT TRYING TO CONVINCE ANYONE!
I'm no expert, self-proclaimed or otherwise but I AM a keen observer and experimentor who's managed to sink a serious pile of very real cash into experimentation over the last 15-18yrs. It's precisely BECAUSE OF problems like you describe that I'm doing what I'm doing.
IMO small primers coupled with small flashholes serve two very important functions in small to medium cases. #1 they allow you to run HIGH and consequently clean-burning pressures and #2 they work to lessen the effect of the primer on the burn cycle. Lynn caught me off guard with the .375 case question.
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Lynn, I mis-spoke. I did NOT intend to give the impression that a small primer is recommended for everything. I just type slow, didn't really reply to the thing correctly and continued on with the 6X47L subject..... AND blew off the dangerous aspect of poor ignition in large cases. The problems that Jim alludes to are real. The thing about the cases sucking down flat is real, weird but entirely real. I believe that it's the result of a flame front getting started, the bullet starting down the barrel and then the pressure dropping so quickly that it "puts the fire out" and a negative pressure situation occurs. I simply detest huge cases and slow powders for this and a bunch of other reasons. I THOUGHT that I'd been clear on this for lo these many years here....
...... my bad for glossing it over. Burn propagation thrives on pressure......I SIMPLY DON'T LIKE LARGE CASES WITH SLOW POWDER and I ignored the thing. I'm sorry.
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But, to get back to caseforming
This is something I'm perty good at. IMO the absolute secret to making square and non-banana'd brass has to do with initial fit and the first firing. IMO you get ONE chance at making your brass correctly. Chamber such that you must bump your shoulders to achieve a tight crush-fit and fireform with a stout load of fast powder and never have to deal with crooked cases again.OOPS!! You'se guys are posting
I'd better get this at least partially up before it gets all muddled!!LOL
al
J
J. Pendergraft
Guest
Jim, Sorry to hijack your thread. Very interesting approach Al has taken to chamber size.
Lynn, If you are referring to the following which I posted on the thread about tightening primer pockets, it seems you misinterpreted my statements. I get 10+ firings by using the RCBS tool to tighten primer pockets when they get too loose. With my loads in Norma brass the primer pockets will get loose prior to 10 firings. Reportedly others get many firings from the Norma brass with no issues but I suspect they are not using hot loads. Among those that report such walked away with a ton of wood for his acheivements in light gun class in 2008 at Hawks Ridge using a 300 Ackley w/ Norma brass.
"I have been using Norma brass in the 300 Ackley for years and I get pretty decent life from the brass, in excess of 10 firings and not mild loads either. When some of the primer pockets loosen a bit the RCBS tool will snug them back up for a few more firings. Here in NC it works for me.
Now that said, I would take brass with a harder case head if it were available. Brass like the once available RWS will last indefinitely and you don't have to tweak it like I do the Norma. I recently found some Win 375 H&H and will eventually give it a try if the dimensions look OK."
CAUTION: Be extremely careful when venturing into the area of improper/insufficient ignition. There have been people seriously injured as a result.
J
J. Pendergraft
Guest
Al,
I have seen this several times, never my own stuff but other long range shooters. It has always been a mystery to me. At the time I came to the conclusion that the pressure was not sufficient to seal the neck to the chamber but then that never made good sense cause why would the pressure want to get between the case neck and the chamber wall anyway. They do look like they are getting sucked in as you state. It's not something I want to see on my own stuff what ever the cause.
The 6x47L is quite interesting in that some are getting awesome results while others including seasoned shooters have tried it and have gone back to the 6BR variants because they say it was not as accurate. I think they just did not test enough to find the best loads, possibly they were shooting it too mild. You have shot both, do you have any opinions why some may be failing to acheive the stellar performance from the 6x47L?
On the subject of poor ignition. This is a little off subject but may be relevant.
I've told this story before but it illustrates something rather well. NOT ALL IGNITION PROBLEMS ARE JUST SIZE RELATED..... Some primers are simply poorly suited for ignition of some powders. I don't know the science of this but here's the story.
We shoot shotgun some. Once when I was making up a batch of trap loads I ran out of Win primers and still had a couple buckets to load. I use a patterning board so I just swapped in some Federal 209 primers, walked out and patterned them and came back in and continued loading.
I WAS smart enough to break the loads into two groups, new buckets, no mixing
Anyway, came time to shoot and it was 45-50degrees and we got real ignition problems.
I called Federal and got ahold of a tech. His first question was "was that load from a manual?" I said "yes, except for the primer." And he proceeded to give me a short course on primer/powder compatibility. I was using 700X or 800X, I disremember, and he sent me a published list which noted that Fed primers WERE NOT suitable substitutes for this powder. The guy sent me 2000 primers gratis and treated me really well.
Because of this and other experiences I'm a little leery of claims that certain primers are "hotter" than others etc. I read avidly the testing like German Salazar's latest stuff and the old spark-in-the-dark stuff from yrs gone by BUT I've learned not to guess how a certain primer will act with a certain powder.
I currently believe that certain priming mixes ignite certain powders better than others. And I really believe in trying different primers out with each load.
al
I've told this story before but it illustrates something rather well. NOT ALL IGNITION PROBLEMS ARE JUST SIZE RELATED..... Some primers are simply poorly suited for ignition of some powders. I don't know the science of this but here's the story.
We shoot shotgun some. Once when I was making up a batch of trap loads I ran out of Win primers and still had a couple buckets to load. I use a patterning board so I just swapped in some Federal 209 primers, walked out and patterned them and came back in and continued loading.
I WAS smart enough to break the loads into two groups, new buckets, no mixing
Anyway, came time to shoot and it was 45-50degrees and we got real ignition problems.
I called Federal and got ahold of a tech. His first question was "was that load from a manual?" I said "yes, except for the primer." And he proceeded to give me a short course on primer/powder compatibility. I was using 700X or 800X, I disremember, and he sent me a published list which noted that Fed primers WERE NOT suitable substitutes for this powder. The guy sent me 2000 primers gratis and treated me really well.
Because of this and other experiences I'm a little leery of claims that certain primers are "hotter" than others etc. I read avidly the testing like German Salazar's latest stuff and the old spark-in-the-dark stuff from yrs gone by BUT I've learned not to guess how a certain primer will act with a certain powder.
I currently believe that certain priming mixes ignite certain powders better than others. And I really believe in trying different primers out with each load.
al
OK, on the subject of cases "sucking flat," this is really rare but I've heard of it from two people and read of it. The concensus of opinion is that the bullet starts down the bore and pressure falls so quickly that burn cannot be sustained.
The other thing, dents in the cases from too low pressure a load is very common. It doesn't look at all like the "sucked flat" stuff. It DOES look like creases in the case, sometimes running clear down to the casehead. I've seen cases scalloped or fluted 4-5 times like they'd been drug into a knothole........and dents and dings like you'd ironed the outside of the case with a smooth mandrel or something. When pressure is too low the neck fails to seal and gas escapes down alongside the case. I've seen this MANY times. The clue is SOOT and lots of it. Blackened cases, weird smell and sometimes even a tarry sludge that I'm at a loss to account for. Here's why this one is scarey...... IT HAPPENS MAINLY TO CAREFUL PEOPLE!! I've seen it too many times where a very cautious NEW reloader just decides that in the interest of safety they'll start out "below minimum"...... and WHAMM!! .....Blowby, blowBACK and collapsed cases. IF THE CASES ARE SOOTY and smoke is rising then the load is too light!
(Or just too slow powder.) This is one of the problems that I have with slow powder in general. I growed up in MinnDesota where you can be shooting below zero..... I've seen factory rifles collapse factory loads in cold weather. Smoke rolling, eyes watering, deers running away and one very pissed off magnum owner! In fact, reloading for magnum hunting rifles in MN using light neck tension will get you sooner or later. You've got to load TIGHT and even crimp the necks. THIS is what crimping necks is really about. It's not all about just holding the bullets in place in the mag. The reason that the gas goes backwards is because it finds this to be the path of least resistance, the bullet's in the way the other way! So many times we forget we brass case's PRIMARY FUNCTION..... gasket.
As far as my speculation as to WHY the 6X47L gets less accuracy for some people??? Yeahhh, I have opinions
(betcha' din't see THAT one coming
)Let's look at it another way..... Why does the 6PPC dominate so much in it's discipline??? Is it a magical mixture of angles and capacities and vortices???
I say NOT!
Yes it's dimensioned correctly (but so's a WalDog)
YES it has the proper primer and flashhole...... but so do others.
Another view,related, WHY do so many folks report that "DAshers" and BRX's and such actually shoot BETTER than the parent case?
I'll tell ya' why!
(Actually, I'll give you MY OPINION why
)IMO, the Actual Factual SECRET of the PPC is brass prep. Trial and error and time and the combined experience of a bunch of far-thinking gunsmiths/shooters have resulted in a SYSTEM that produces good brass. And the single biggest factor is that PPC's utilize crush-fit fireforming.
Short-chamber a 6BR and crush the brass, short-chamber ANYTHING and see the difference.
The factory formed PPC will NEVER be a factor because THE SECOND someone produces formed PPC cases the local populace will "chamber for it" using "GO Gauges" and the brass will quickly develop a reputation for "not shooting"..... JUST like every other factory case, 6BR included!
Because they will not agg.
Because ANYTHING, PPC included that's fireformed in a sloppy chamber cannot shoot to capacity.
Cases will banana....
Caseheads will be crooked....
It will take three tries to hammer the brass into some semblance of shape AND IT WILL NEVER SHOOT RIGHT!!
This is sooo simple. CRUSH that brass, HAMMER it with a stout fireform load of FAST powder using a LIGHT bullet and it will just fall out in your hand. And it will be forevermore tractable and dependable.....
And it won't grow....
And it won't feel different each time you size it.....
And it won't have to be annealed to make all the cases "similar"....
It'll all be identical, from the start.
and consequently your vibrations will be all GOOD vibrations.
Und't birds will tsing,
Und't flowers will ploom
Und't aggregates will shrink magically.......
Und't all will be right with the world.....
So that's MY opinion!
LOL
al
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I've rethought the "sucking flat" thing. I think it is a variation on the other, where the case doesn't seal. I'm remembering the reading and the accounts of people better........Yes the fire goes clear out and yes powder comes out the end and scatters on the ground but the MECHANISM of collapse can't be "suction".
I have to believe that it's just a variation on the theme, that it's still PRESSURE escaping that somehow collapses the case. I saw a picture of one once where the case looked like it'd been driven over. One side was basically caved into the other.
Sorry to be so hesitant here but my brain sometimes tends to single-track (like it did earlier ) and it takes a while to gather my thoughts in a new arena.
steenking slow powders anyways......
LOL
al
I have to believe that it's just a variation on the theme, that it's still PRESSURE escaping that somehow collapses the case. I saw a picture of one once where the case looked like it'd been driven over. One side was basically caved into the other.
Sorry to be so hesitant here but my brain sometimes tends to single-track (like it did earlier
) and it takes a while to gather my thoughts in a new arena.steenking slow powders anyways......
LOL
al
Lynn, I've never messed with flash tubes. I really toyed with the idea about 12-14yrs ago, even found someone to make them and was debating the finer points of length, porting VS just leaving the end open etc when I realized, "why go there?"
THE PROBLEM goes back to the stupid slow powder!
And this is why I have a large tenon BAT setting on my table, with no ejector hole
So far preliminary testing in a Remington indicates that this Win brass extrudes into the ejector hole before the pockets loosen..........this is a good sign.
al
THE PROBLEM goes back to the stupid slow powder!
And this is why I have a large tenon BAT setting on my table, with no ejector hole
So far preliminary testing in a Remington indicates that this Win brass extrudes into the ejector hole before the pockets loosen..........this is a good sign.
al
J
J. Pendergraft
Guest
Lynn,
The other post was discussing tools for tightening primer pockets. You stated they were all junk and did not work for you. They do work for others and that is my point. My point was not to defend Norma or any other brand of brass. Often people get different results using the same products and the reasons for this vary. I don't care to be argumentative about the matter. That serves no useful purpose IMO. Just because one states he gets different results does not mean someone is being dishonest representing their results. If someone gets different results it can lead one to explore why and further their own knowledge if they so desire.
Many do not have the resources or desire to spend huge sums of money on this hobby. Some have to maximize the life of equipment and cartridge cases. I shot in the "F" Class Nationals a few years back with a shooter from South Africa. He was explaining how difficult it is for them to import barrels which have serial numbers in South Africa. Taking off a il shooting barrel is not an option for them. They work with the barrel and find out what will shoot in that barrel and then do everything possible to maximize the life of the barrel.
To promote the fact that one spends thousands of dollars per year for this hobby does little to encourage new shooters to join our ranks. You can be successful, have fun and win without such huge investments.
J
J. Pendergraft
Guest
I've rethought the "sucking flat" thing. I think it is a variation on the other, where the case doesn't seal. I'm remembering the reading and the accounts of people better........Yes the fire goes clear out and yes powder comes out the end and scatters on the ground but the MECHANISM of collapse can't be "suction".
I have to believe that it's just a variation on the theme, that it's still PRESSURE escaping that somehow collapses the case. I saw a picture of one once where the case looked like it'd been driven over. One side was basically caved into the other.
Sorry to be so hesitant here but my brain sometimes tends to single-track (like it did earlier
steenking slow powders anyways......
LOL
al
Al,
I have never seen a case sucked flat myself. The ones I have seen had pleats in the case mostly on the body near the shoulder end and the shoulder. And yes they were black with soot. I remember one individual that was getting this while fireforming. He obviously was not following your recomendation of hammering them hard during fireform.
Sucked flat cases
All:
Like Joel, I have never seen a case sucked flat. I have seen at least two (maybe three) 300 Ackley cases at Hawks Ridge that had flutes around the case (a shooter who wins very often had the first two on the same day).
I have seen another case with the same type flutes at River Bend Gun Club in Georgia in January or February 2006. That shooter had a new 300 Wea Mk 5 with a muzzle brake. He was "working up loads" when this happened. As an aside, he also blew the muzzle brake off his gun on that same day. Of course, he retired his load development for the day -- sent the rifle back to Weatherby.
BTW, everyone be nice to each other as this is a very educational thread with a great mix of questions and responses. I am starting to "see" what Al is talking about, and I am keeping an open mind. Some of the concepts and techniques are "off the chart" from what I have seen my entire life of competitive shooting -- but there is a lot of testing and success to back it up. After all, that is why I started the thread -- to find the cutting edge from people like Al who have been there and done that.
Regards,
Jim Hardy
All:
Like Joel, I have never seen a case sucked flat. I have seen at least two (maybe three) 300 Ackley cases at Hawks Ridge that had flutes around the case (a shooter who wins very often had the first two on the same day).
I have seen another case with the same type flutes at River Bend Gun Club in Georgia in January or February 2006. That shooter had a new 300 Wea Mk 5 with a muzzle brake. He was "working up loads" when this happened. As an aside, he also blew the muzzle brake off his gun on that same day. Of course, he retired his load development for the day -- sent the rifle back to Weatherby.
BTW, everyone be nice to each other as this is a very educational thread with a great mix of questions and responses. I am starting to "see" what Al is talking about, and I am keeping an open mind. Some of the concepts and techniques are "off the chart" from what I have seen my entire life of competitive shooting -- but there is a lot of testing and success to back it up. After all, that is why I started the thread -- to find the cutting edge from people like Al who have been there and done that.
Regards,
Jim Hardy
Another advantage to fireforming with fast powder.
I believe that it's possible to actually "temper" or work-harden the head of the case. I call all of this "case seasoning" as if anybody cares. I believe that if you want to be able to run maximum pressure in the long run then the goal is to find the maximum fast-powder fireform load and use it. I will fire cases twice with the light bullets/fast powder when possible. Economically this becomes more feasible after you've got a scrap barrel or two...I use a dedicated fireform barrel. Incidentally all of this is how I found out that teeny bullets will often shoot very well through a tight twist. I've fired thousands of too-light bullets and old batches and odd lots of stuff during fireforming. I find it depressing to just shoot into a bank so I shoot at paper. I've also blown up a lot of bullets. And I've shot animals with the light pills in fast twist to find some remarkable differences due to rotational velocity! Those pictures of varmints just vaporizing in the scope????? HIGH ROTATION!!!
I also fireform using shotgun powder sometimes, this can be a very effective tool and is the ONLY way when necking UP IMO........ Ken Howell agrees, in fact it was Ken who git me started on this. I NEVER mandrel up anymore.
Now if someone could just come up with a better way to neck DOWN concentrically I'd be a happy boy! Necking down the 6X47 always results in off-center necks, not pretty.
pix below.
al
I believe that it's possible to actually "temper" or work-harden the head of the case. I call all of this "case seasoning" as if anybody cares.
I believe that if you want to be able to run maximum pressure in the long run then the goal is to find the maximum fast-powder fireform load and use it. I will fire cases twice with the light bullets/fast powder when possible. Economically this becomes more feasible after you've got a scrap barrel or two...I use a dedicated fireform barrel. Incidentally all of this is how I found out that teeny bullets will often shoot very well through a tight twist. I've fired thousands of too-light bullets and old batches and odd lots of stuff during fireforming. I find it depressing to just shoot into a bank so I shoot at paper. I've also blown up a lot of bullets. And I've shot animals with the light pills in fast twist to find some remarkable differences due to rotational velocity! Those pictures of varmints just vaporizing in the scope????? HIGH ROTATION!!!I also fireform using shotgun powder sometimes, this can be a very effective tool and is the ONLY way when necking UP IMO........ Ken Howell agrees, in fact it was Ken who git me started on this. I NEVER mandrel up anymore.
Now if someone could just come up with a better way to neck DOWN concentrically I'd be a happy boy! Necking down the 6X47 always results in off-center necks, not pretty.
pix below.
al
Attachments
OOOPS, forgot the pix of necking UP with shotgun powder. The first case is barely swelled out, in fact the neck didn't even seal BUT because of the fast powder, the shoulder and case DID. Before it was wiped down this neck was pretty dark. Not SOOTY, just black from burning powder. Fast burning powders don't create the sooty blowback situation.
And a couple more showing the swelled up case bases. These pix were taken to illustrate how an un-hardened die makes the cases look scratched.
and my reason for this set of pix...... eccentricity when necking down comes from lack of guidance.
The last pic I've included to show how when pushing just the shoulder back the eccentricity does not occur. The existing neck guides the die. These are from an HBR round which is based on the .308Win......... I now use this chamber to fireform my brass for the new HBR cartridge based on the 6'5X47L case. Same case just taking it another way. Brass will interchange between guns but shooting a 30X47L in the shortened .308 results in some fairly significant gapspace like a quarter inch.....
al
And a couple more showing the swelled up case bases. These pix were taken to illustrate how an un-hardened die makes the cases look scratched.
and my reason for this set of pix...... eccentricity when necking down comes from lack of guidance.
The last pic I've included to show how when pushing just the shoulder back the eccentricity does not occur. The existing neck guides the die. These are from an HBR round which is based on the .308Win......... I now use this chamber to fireform my brass for the new HBR cartridge based on the 6'5X47L case. Same case just taking it another way. Brass will interchange between guns but shooting a 30X47L in the shortened .308 results in some fairly significant gapspace
like a quarter inch.....al
Attachments
Why not . . . ?
Al:
As I understand it, you trim your brass significantly prior to fire forming. Since the 6x47L does not have a very long neck (compared to the 6mm Swiss Match for example) why would you not wait until AFTER you have fire formed in the dedicated FF barrel?
It seems that your could "square" the brass during FF and then make a square trim that leaves you with a longer neck and just a little gap in front of the case mouth. What say you?
Jim
Al:
As I understand it, you trim your brass significantly prior to fire forming. Since the 6x47L does not have a very long neck (compared to the 6mm Swiss Match for example) why would you not wait until AFTER you have fire formed in the dedicated FF barrel?
It seems that your could "square" the brass during FF and then make a square trim that leaves you with a longer neck and just a little gap in front of the case mouth. What say you?
Jim