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4
4Mesh
Guest
Charles,
at no point did I try to imply that pointing isn't beneficial. I simply go about that process a different way. But as I say, if you want to win, you HAVE to do one of these things. Otherwise, you need to shoot at a range where nobody else does them either. If the bullets leave the rifle with differing BC's, you can pretty much pack your things and get ready to go home.
Joe,
It doesn't matter where the BC is, as long as they are all the same. If he looses a slight bit of BC, its no different than switching from a 240 to a 210. Do you really think one has an advantage over the other? BC isn't the be-all-end-all, it's just real important that it be consistent. If it isn't, your days over at the relay.
at no point did I try to imply that pointing isn't beneficial. I simply go about that process a different way. But as I say, if you want to win, you HAVE to do one of these things. Otherwise, you need to shoot at a range where nobody else does them either. If the bullets leave the rifle with differing BC's, you can pretty much pack your things and get ready to go home.
Joe,
It doesn't matter where the BC is, as long as they are all the same. If he looses a slight bit of BC, its no different than switching from a 240 to a 210. Do you really think one has an advantage over the other? BC isn't the be-all-end-all, it's just real important that it be consistent. If it isn't, your days over at the relay.
4Mesh
Phil I thought you didn't sort because you were talking to Greg about not measuring bearing surface.
If you don't measure first and go ahead and trim meplats anyway you end up with different diameters.You essentially solved one problem and created another.
If you then point those same bullets with different diameters you end up swaging the heel area of the bullet.
I have a pointer and all the sleeves but one has to be extremely careful if you want to point.
I ran some bullets on my Juenke and they were all less than 2 deviation units.Trimming the meplats made them even better.
I decided to do a quick point on them just to close them up and most of them were now running 15-22 deviation units while a few were still less than 2 deviation units.
I'm with you on all I want is consistency.I don't care what the bc number is as long as they are all the same.
Getting back to the Boattails.I have some of the bullets mentioned earlier in this thread and the boattails look like they were smeared into the die on a bias.I use them for fireforming they look so bad.
Lynn
Phil I thought you didn't sort because you were talking to Greg about not measuring bearing surface.
If you don't measure first and go ahead and trim meplats anyway you end up with different diameters.You essentially solved one problem and created another.
If you then point those same bullets with different diameters you end up swaging the heel area of the bullet.
I have a pointer and all the sleeves but one has to be extremely careful if you want to point.
I ran some bullets on my Juenke and they were all less than 2 deviation units.Trimming the meplats made them even better.
I decided to do a quick point on them just to close them up and most of them were now running 15-22 deviation units while a few were still less than 2 deviation units.
I'm with you on all I want is consistency.I don't care what the bc number is as long as they are all the same.
Getting back to the Boattails.I have some of the bullets mentioned earlier in this thread and the boattails look like they were smeared into the die on a bias.I use them for fireforming they look so bad.
Lynn
Well Charles you didn't answer my question on why you trim, point then trim again were is your BC. now?
Joe, I can't give you a logical answer. With pointing, I tried trimming first, and after. Looking at the result, it seemed there was always a compromise. On the other hand, if I trimmed both first and after, the compromises pretty much went away.
Part of my inspection tooling comes from the typesetting industry, so what I rely on -- including a visual inspection under power -- is both a bit subjective and different from everyone else. The remark about trimming before and after wasn't particularly a recommendation, just a description of what I do.
As Phil says, I don't care so much what the BC (drag) is, just so it is as close to the same as I can get it, and no worse than with "untouched" bullets. The lowering of the BC by trimming doesn't seem to hurt grouping capability, but it does hurt scoring capability. I never want to give up anything on score.
BTW, Lynn's is the second post where there seems to be an issue with the a repoint die -- Matt's was the other one. I wonder if Lynn too was using a Hoover? I don't know if my differing results is a matter of luck, technique, or tooling, but I happen to use a Whidden. Both the #0 and #1 points seem to work fine.
After Matt's remark, I did exactly what Lynn described -- went back with the Jeunke and re-measured both the base just ahead of the boattail, and the point where the bullet contacts the lands. There was essentially no change in the deviation readings in either place -- maybe one unit -- my Jeunke drifts that much, so it can be hard to tell. The repointing was fairly aggressive on these bullets too -- more than I usually do. The final arbitrator -- the target -- also showed all was well.
But I'm going to keep checking bullets for a while. If there are no problems for half a year or so, I'll stop all but occasional, random checking for repoint issues.
Charles what I've said before I use a bushing to check mine, and your Junky is telling you the same thing, your too aggressive with the pointing your making them FAT at the boat tail! So no they won't all be the same. And Phil if Berger made 240 VLD I'd be shooting it in my Baer.
Joe Salt
Joe Salt
Joe, this is the second time you've told me I'm doing something wrong.Charles what I've said before I use a bushing to check mine, and your Junky is telling you the same thing, your too aggressive with the pointing your making them FAT at the boat tail! So no they won't all be the same. And Phil if Berger made 240 VLD I'd be shooting it in my Baer.
Joe Salt
Since nothing is changing when I repoint the bullets, I get confused. Either you're not reading my posts, or you're telling me my bullets *should* get fat?
Charles let me put it this way, you point once. Now you trim. You have already put pressure on the front of the boat tail. Now you do it again. so what I'm saying is you are working the jacket like you would a good piece of brass, your over working it something is happening. All I'm saying is I tried it both ways and ran into the bullet getting fat. I've shot them both but have to do more testing with the fat ones, I don't think it can be good. Maybe by adjusting the pointing die a little at a time you may reach a happy medium. But the more you trim the more you have to adjust to try and get the point you want. Hope i said that right, hate trying to answer this way.
Joe Salt
Joe Salt
Joe Salt
I ran a couple of 100 count boxes of the new Hornady 6mm bullets over my Juenke and they all measured 15-25 deviation units.I took 25 of them and trimmed the meplats and saw no improvement at all.They have some of the best meplats I have seen on any bullets as they come out of the box so it was no surprise when trimming them didn't produce better numbers.
Most bullets see no improve to a small improvement to a large improvement just by trimming.I haven't seen any get worse by trimming.
I have also double pointed bullets and each time you get more and more deviation units.
A small amount show no change a small amount show little change and a large amount show significant variations.
You don't always see it on the target at 100 yards but if the Juenke is showing variation in the wrong direction on pointing and in the right direction on trimming something is happening.
I have seen tips completely altered so it looks like a second secant ogive right at the last 1/32 of the tip and those bullets shot several records and won a Nationals.They were not my bullets or I would post a picture.
Maybe its time to sell the Juenke.
Lynn
I ran a couple of 100 count boxes of the new Hornady 6mm bullets over my Juenke and they all measured 15-25 deviation units.I took 25 of them and trimmed the meplats and saw no improvement at all.They have some of the best meplats I have seen on any bullets as they come out of the box so it was no surprise when trimming them didn't produce better numbers.
Most bullets see no improve to a small improvement to a large improvement just by trimming.I haven't seen any get worse by trimming.
I have also double pointed bullets and each time you get more and more deviation units.
A small amount show no change a small amount show little change and a large amount show significant variations.
You don't always see it on the target at 100 yards but if the Juenke is showing variation in the wrong direction on pointing and in the right direction on trimming something is happening.
I have seen tips completely altered so it looks like a second secant ogive right at the last 1/32 of the tip and those bullets shot several records and won a Nationals.They were not my bullets or I would post a picture.
Maybe its time to sell the Juenke.
Lynn
4
4Mesh
Guest
Lynn,4Mesh
Phil I thought you didn't sort because you were talking to Greg about not measuring bearing surface.
If you don't measure first and go ahead and trim meplats anyway you end up with different diameters.You essentially solved one problem and created another.
If you then point those same bullets with different diameters you end up swaging the heel area of the bullet.
I have a pointer and all the sleeves but one has to be extremely careful if you want to point.
I ran some bullets on my Juenke and they were all less than 2 deviation units.Trimming the meplats made them even better.
I decided to do a quick point on them just to close them up and most of them were now running 15-22 deviation units while a few were still less than 2 deviation units.
I'm with you on all I want is consistency.I don't care what the bc number is as long as they are all the same.
Getting back to the Boattails.I have some of the bullets mentioned earlier in this thread and the boattails look like they were smeared into the die on a bias.I use them for fireforming they look so bad.
Lynn
I agree with all the above.
It sounds to me as if you and Joe are crushing the bullet some. Might not be much, but a little anyway. Obviously, the rest of the bullet should not deform when it is pointed, ideally anyway. Charles seems to have resolved that with his procedure, and possibly his die is less inclined to do it to begin with.
I never gave pointing an honest go. I dabbled some, but I wasn't willing to invest the time, effort and money in the whole process. Especially when I figured I had another way to do the same thing.
And Charles....
Joe is hopeless... I mean, how can you trust a guy who won't eat sushi?
Yes now you are starting to understand what I've been saying. If you point to get a nice point then trim, then point again to get a nice point, then you have to adjust the die to get back were you were with the point. So you are boinking it twice. Your changing things and doing more than you have to. And don't tell me your just touching it, because to get a nice point your crushing it some. Phil, And when you get WORMS from eating that junk don't tell me I was right.
Joe Salt
Joe Salt
4Mesh
I don't know if you have seen the Innovative Tool that Larry Willis makes for just ahead of the belts on magnum cases or not.It slips over the case then the whole thing gets swaged in from pressure on the sides.
If a guy like Larry or Dave Kiff could make a tool like that to squeeze the tips closed from the sides rather than pushing on the bullets heel I think we would achieve the same results with less distortion.
I have a block with holes in it and I slide my bullets across it until the meplat goes into one of the holes.This is how I measure the diameter and while not perfect it works good enough for myself.If I do this step first I get less deviation on the Juenke after pointing.
I still point all of my hunting bullets and haven't noticed any problems at all.
Lynn
I don't know if you have seen the Innovative Tool that Larry Willis makes for just ahead of the belts on magnum cases or not.It slips over the case then the whole thing gets swaged in from pressure on the sides.
If a guy like Larry or Dave Kiff could make a tool like that to squeeze the tips closed from the sides rather than pushing on the bullets heel I think we would achieve the same results with less distortion.
I have a block with holes in it and I slide my bullets across it until the meplat goes into one of the holes.This is how I measure the diameter and while not perfect it works good enough for myself.If I do this step first I get less deviation on the Juenke after pointing.
I still point all of my hunting bullets and haven't noticed any problems at all.
Lynn
4
4Mesh
Guest
Joe,
Last I checked, the average life expectancy in Japan was longer than it is in the USA. You just keep eating your road kills, and I'll have my sushi. If it kills me, at least I can say it was good when I ate it! And I didn't need to stab it to end it's death throws!
Lynn,
that sounds like a Lee Collet die, but for the bottom of the case. I've made a similar arrangement many years ago for one of my cases. Yes, I'd agree that something like that would be real nice for doing pointing. Trouble is, that would be a really small collet and it would have an angle inside. From the standpoint of making it, it just seems like a difficult project to me. That's a really small hole to cut into 4 or 6 parts, and keep centered, etc. At that diameter, it would not take much dirt in the slits of the collet to stop it from closing properly. You'd almost need some way to tell it had closed all the way each time.
Last I checked, the average life expectancy in Japan was longer than it is in the USA. You just keep eating your road kills, and I'll have my sushi. If it kills me, at least I can say it was good when I ate it! And I didn't need to stab it to end it's death throws!
Lynn,
that sounds like a Lee Collet die, but for the bottom of the case. I've made a similar arrangement many years ago for one of my cases. Yes, I'd agree that something like that would be real nice for doing pointing. Trouble is, that would be a really small collet and it would have an angle inside. From the standpoint of making it, it just seems like a difficult project to me. That's a really small hole to cut into 4 or 6 parts, and keep centered, etc. At that diameter, it would not take much dirt in the slits of the collet to stop it from closing properly. You'd almost need some way to tell it had closed all the way each time.
Charles let me put it this way, you point once. Now you trim. You have already put pressure on the front of the boat tail. Now you do it again.
Joe, At the risk of posting again:
If you have a procedure you want to recommend to people, just do it. Don't make it in reference to my posts. I don't mean to get huffy, but you're not reading them. I just said I trim, point, trim, and you criticize me for pointing twice. No. I trim twice.
And earlier, you told me my technique was probably the source of my bullet bases growing, when I specifically said others had reported this problem, not me. I have no increase in runout or size.
So you've probably got something helpful in mind for people. It's going to be clearer, I think, if you don't reference it to my posts.
G
Greg Culpepper
Guest
Charles,
No, I'm not sure. In fact I think my statement was wrong. The CR 6, 6.5 and 30 boattails are 13 tangent. I am reminded that your history of the CR 6.5 FB is correct.
My memory never was what it used to be. Thanks for the catch.
Greg
Greg -- are you sure the 140-grain 6.5 flatbase was 13-tangent? Believe Tooley designed the bullet, and that's a bit high for one of Dave's designs.
But it could well be; my memory isn't what it once was. Another IIRC -- I think Tooley & maybe Shelp paid for that die, then Greg (Sigmund) paid them back in bullets. Sure would be nice to have that die, if Clinch River is not going to make any more bullets.
No, I'm not sure. In fact I think my statement was wrong. The CR 6, 6.5 and 30 boattails are 13 tangent. I am reminded that your history of the CR 6.5 FB is correct.
My memory never was what it used to be. Thanks for the catch.
Greg
R
rem300ack
Guest
I have a story to tell.One day a very good friend of mine and I was sitting on the ground in Va at the IBS Nationals. His name, Phil Bower (4 mesh). I had his record rounds in my hand, laughing at him and telling him how bad they looked! They were black, probaly had never seen a sonic cleaner, or tumbler. the necks were cracked so bad, that when I held them up to the light, I could see daylight through the necks!!! I laughingly asked, "how do you control neck tension like that"? He replied " to hell with neck tension"!! I then held two of them up and could tell with the naked eye that they were not seated to the same depth. When I asked about that, the response was "to hell with seating depth"!! I again laughed. Because we have always maintained a good friendship, I knew that I could talk smack to him about his ways, which are usually very differant than mine. I then helped him carry his equipment to the bench and watched him set a new IBS world group record with the loads I had just held in my hand. My point to this story? After reading some of 4 mesh's post, I sometimes chuckle and remind myself, sometimes we MAY put to much emphasis on the little things!!!! Just thought I would share ........shannon Lowman
Shannon, it is almost as if the benchrest gods require a certain level of work before rewarding you. The specifics of the work doesn't matter...
A noted shooter & gunsmith went through a period where he kept saying "I've tested it, that doesn't matter." Pretty soon, there wasn't anything left that mattered. And his rifles stopped shooting so well.
After a longish dry spell, I'm doing well again. Of course, it has nothing to do with health, it must be because I'm now pointing up bullets...
A noted shooter & gunsmith went through a period where he kept saying "I've tested it, that doesn't matter." Pretty soon, there wasn't anything left that mattered. And his rifles stopped shooting so well.
After a longish dry spell, I'm doing well again. Of course, it has nothing to do with health, it must be because I'm now pointing up bullets...
D
dk hunt 14
Guest
Shannon; one thing i can say about your story. I can almost guarantee they were well sorted bullets.
R
rem300ack
Guest
I dont doubt that dk hunt, but there is alot to be said for good bullets. I believe that if your barrel and bullets are above average, then some of the other things aren't as important. Sometimes people work hard and can only shoot average, because of their barrels. I am guilty of this also, you just keep thinking that that barrel will come around. The next thing you know the whole year had passed by. It hurts the pocket, but I have learned if it doesn't shoot well within a hundred rounds, throw it in the corner and put on a new one.
4
4Mesh
Guest
One thing I have always thought mattered, was shooting consistent bullets. Seating depth seems to matter if the rifle shoots best close to the lands. Those who jump, probably don't care much if they jump 20 or 100. I've had rifles that shot anywhere but close to the lands. Didn't matter how far off, just off > 10. When a case seals well, it doesn't matter what the neck does. And bullet tension probably means more when the bullet is going in than it does when it's coming out.
Now once that bullet leaves and it's out of your control, the Monday through Friday sorting seems to have its greatest effect. At least that's my opinion. Doesn't matter if you spent mon-fri sorting, pointing, producing, etc. If they are all the same, Sundays a better day.
Now once that bullet leaves and it's out of your control, the Monday through Friday sorting seems to have its greatest effect. At least that's my opinion. Doesn't matter if you spent mon-fri sorting, pointing, producing, etc. If they are all the same, Sundays a better day.