6 mm BRX - what freebore and neck should I use?

AND..... the best bullet for a World Record Group may not be a good competition bullet 90% of the time. As any real competitor knows, some days it's better to not shoot big ones than to shot little ones. :) I've got a 30X47 that's so bloody hyper-accurate that I really should keep it behind the seat in the truck JUST for that trigger-puller relay. On any given day on my range it's a tossup for the 300yd targets as to which will work better, a tuned 6PPC, an HBR-style 30 or something shooting VLD's. I have the luxury of using my rifles to check the conditions, I can shoot a known load down the range and see what I can't see...... and now and then I'll post a teeny one-holer at 300 with a .250 BC bullet.

And another day the same setup will fight to make 3 inches.....

In a perfect trigger pull a 6PPC or a 30BR with 112 BIB's or somesuch would (will, does) set new records. Ask Ray Meketa. But this certainly doesn't make it a good choice.

Now, that said there are a bunch of folks who feel the 187 is a good tradeoff in a world full of tradeoffs.... and they're all entitled to that opinion.

opinions vary.

MY opinion is that a 105-108gr 6MM shooting bugholes at 100 is a good tradeoff. And so far I have been privy to three setups that seriously BUGhole.

I didnt say I could steer them, but the rifles are sound.

This whole "but did it win wood?" thing gets seriously overplayed...... I've watched guys come on this board and in all seriousness ask "Who's this Vaughn guy? He cain't know nuttin' I've never seen HIS woodpiles..."

duhh


You've got GUNS that shoot and you've got DRIVERS that shoot, and sometimes you get both together..... Jackie scabbed together a winning rifle and rode that sumbitch like a cocky BadDawg and blew some doors off..... AWESOME!!!......but a whole ton of wood's been won by so-so guns and as the other poster said a couple days ago "what's with all the records falling??"

BETTER shooters, BETTER setups.......

The 6X47L will rule the 600yd world. :D

And the 30X47L will rule the HBR world, if the world stands.....

And this was apparent 5yrs ago when Lapua announced the birth of the new case.

Now if we could just get a good BIG 30 case.......

LOL

moreopinionsby


al
 
Ken Worth said:
Most real 600 yard shooters knew what Lynn meant the way he wrote it :eek::eek::eek:
Click to expand...

And this is relevant HOW Kenny????

I see Wilbur's WorldWideWonder as a public service.

You see it as a club.

I see a sport that needs passionate support and a drive for new blood. I love to see new shooters. And I love for them to feel comfortable.

You ARE kinda' comfortable so let's not let anybody grab the edge of the boat eh....:rolleyes:

diff'rent strokes man... diff'rent strokes.

I want my grandkids to shoot.

al
 
Another generality -- you're right, Al, what amount to testimonials, esp. the "one group" variety, are one very small clue in a big puzzle.

But to add to the BIBs legend, Aside from setting the world record, there was a year or two where Joel won more HG matches than anyone else at Hawks Ridge. He was the first person to get to 20 club points. All with his big 30, shooting BIBs. And yes, the wind blows at Hawks Ridge . . . Much the same story for Jeff Rogers in Australia.

Add Dave Tooley, who went to the silver level of the Long Rang Marksman (IBS). Dave didn't do it all with BIBs, but a good portion of those points came with BIBs punching the holes.

Well, still testimonials, good barrels that like those bullets, good gunsmithing (all built their own rifles), some luck.

The only real point is the low BC number of the BIBs -- lower than most 6mms -- was not a factor in the wind. The consistency of the bulllets was, IMHO, a big factor. I've also seen Joel shoot 187s and Berger 210s the same day, same rifle, at 1,000 yards. Moderate wind (switchy, 10 mph). In spite of the numerical differences in B.C. groups were similar. How many people have actually tested that way?

I bring up the 187 BIBs not to try & boost Randy's sales, he doesn't particularly like making them anyway -- but to make the point that a single factor, high BC, is not an important enough quality to override the other compromises one has to make.

Same was true of the Fowler 6mm 66 grain point-blank bullet. 6.5 ogive. Huge meplat. There was a time when the only point-blank matches I shot were the 300 yard Southeastern Regional. I did OK for an occasional Point-Blanker, and so did the Fowlers.

I use to be one of those who shot one or two bullets per chambering. Fowlers and BIBs in the PPC. 118-10 BIBs in the .30 BR. 142 Sierra's and 140 Clinch Rivers n the 6.5. Clinch River only in the big 6mms. The 187 in the big .30. If a barrel didn't shoot "the" bullet, on to a new barrel.

Lou Murdica. in a PS article, pointed out that it is a fair bit cheaper to "stock" several bullets and see which a particular barrel prefers. And you know, he's absolutely right.

* * *

I don't think there is anything magical about the chamberings you've mentioned. One of my worst flaws is I have too many chamberings and too many rifles. One thing I learned from the 10 years of behaving that way is that within limits, chambering doesn't matter too much. Each has compromises, often money.

But I also know many competitive shooters are looking for an edge, esp. a quick one, which is a large part of what "technical superiority" is about. It is wrong, but it is fun. This is esp. true on an internet site, where it is easiest to talk about things technical.

Problem is, the level of detail, the interaction of compromises made, doesn't lend itself to posts and threads. Recently, we have gotten into some detail, esp. with Phil's posts in a couple of threads. Not a cookbook, but a glimmer.

If you're not an experimenter of this order, someone who has as much fun with the building as with the shooting, "bullets and barrels" is a very good generality -- i.e., the testing of several kinds of bullets with each barrel is the best, most economical way to go about it. Make a list of available bullets, known to perform in Benchrest. Put those that require special consideration -- rate of twist, case capacity, whatever -- into a separate, shorter list. Decide if those special qualities are worth it to you, and as time passes, remember you made a compromised choice which can be revisited.
 
The 6X47L will rule the 600yd world.

And the 30X47L will rule the HBR world, if the world stands.....

Bruce
It looks like your all set as far as your chambering goes because it is going to rule the 600 yard world.Oooopppss Lapua just brought out a new small primer pocket 308 case so I'm guessing that case will now become the standard of the industry for 600 yard shooters! I heard a rumor that the 308 owns the IBS/NBRSA record for smallest group ever fired at 600 yards and the bullet was around 155 grains?
Waterboy
 
Lynn said:
The 6X47L will rule the 600yd world.

And the 30X47L will rule the HBR world, if the world stands.....

Bruce
It looks like your all set as far as your chambering goes because it is going to rule the 600 yard world.Oooopppss Lapua just brought out a new small primer pocket 308 case so I'm guessing that case will now become the standard of the industry for 600 yard shooters! I heard a rumor that the 308 owns the IBS/NBRSA record for smallest group ever fired at 600 yards and the bullet was around 155 grains?
Waterboy
Click to expand...

Oooohhhhhh, nice call, :D point taken.

I agree, you're right. And I've got a bushel of the new Palma brass in my sweaty hands as we speak.... it WILL do fine things.


MY point is, all these guys who're preaching that "chambering doesn't really matter" are IMO leading people astray.....

When I had my first 6mm gun built the .243AI was IT, it was displacing the previous wunderkind, the 6X.284.....It was just "better" but nobody could tell me why. I had already bought the brass for a 6mmAI and got talked out of using it, still got it. So I went merrily off down the rosy path and ended up $10,000.00 later with a new view.

YUP, in a way these guys were right. Of the three choices listed above, .6mmAI, .243AI and 6X.284 not one stands out as 'better.' But try to consistently win with one now :) or a 6-06 or whatever.... good luck.

The winning case now WILL be a better case than those mentioned.

This is from a guy who spent real money trying to beat the 6PPC, trying to show that cases are cases are cases.

I was wrong.

You WILL NOT BEAT the small primer case in Bench Rest. This isn't some sort of generality, it's simple physics. The small primer case allows you to do things another case CANNOT accomplish! The new Norma case MIGHT match the Lapua, dunno yet. But you aren't going to set the world on fire grubbing together your new 22-250 minus .225 even though at one time the 22-250 dominated Bench Rest.......

Go try it.

Publish the results.

Meantime I'll continue to do my best to help the new guy spend his money RIGHT so's he can go out and WIN, beat the old comfortable boat sitters and MOVE FORWARD. :)

I've watched it happen, predictably, for the last 15yrs in 600-1000 yd BR. About the time Brennan published 'Precision Shooting at 1000 Yards' the entire industry lurched ahead so far that the book was outdated as it hit the presses....

awesome.

Now...... if someone would just make a good big 30 case they'd stop me from spending thousands on freakin' REMINGTON brass :mad::mad: The 300WSM has worked as predicted, it's a great case, BUT.... I need a big one. I'm actually buying a 700 in 300RUM just to use for a fireform tool....... I'ma' pop the barrel off a new rifle, shorten it about 8 thou and burn it up. talk about having to go to extreme lengths to make brass! I've got to approve the brass before I can spec the reamer before I can start the project.

Hope it works! :rolleyes:

LOL

al
 
This is from a guy who spent real money trying to beat the 6PPC, trying to show that cases are cases are cases.
Click to expand...

Me too. But I chose a .30 BR for HV (group), & did well enough people would ask "Are your bringing that .30 BR?"

My 6AI won a lot of IBS points -- 10 or more. Beat everything on the line, including the few Dashers of the day. Or maybe it was just a real good barrel?

Chambering is one thing, brass is another. What brass is available for a chambering is just one of those compromises.

As for your big .30, give Dave Tooley a call. And I still have some (40 or 60 pieces) new RWS .404 cases. A .300 Dakota (or even longer) would be possible -- but you're a fussy critter, what are you after?
 
Charles E said:
Me too. But I chose a .30 BR for HV (group), & did well enough people would ask "Are your bringing that .30 BR?"

My 6AI won a lot of IBS points -- 10 or more. Beat everything on the line, including the few Dashers of the day. Or maybe it was just a real good barrel?

Chambering is one thing, brass is another. What brass is available for a chambering is just one of those compromises.

As for your big .30, give Dave Tooley a call. And I still have some (40 or 60 pieces) new RWS .404 cases. A .300 Dakota (or even longer) would be possible -- but you're a fussy critter, what are you after?
Click to expand...

I was going to go with the RWSX68 stuff until I was talking to Tooley and he said, and I quote...." probably the best and easiest way right now is to make a trip to Europe and bring some back with you...."

I need readily available brass and lots of it. I may have to modify this thing several time to get where I want to be.

I'm after something that doesn't exist yet (except for the one I just sent out in a smaller caliber) a true quarter-minute long range hunting rifle, repeater. Something that will agg in the twos out of a magazine. USING the magazine..... I just sent out a 6X47L that could be competitive at 600yds or even 1000, out of the magazine. I'm trying to talk the guy into finding some F-Class comps just for the fun of it. He shoots little holes off a bipod as it is. :) but the barrel gets hot quickly. Poor guy, his little barrel tuned in at 'only' 3050 using the new 105 Berger thicks..... he has to live with the low velocity :D:D

BTW, I was looking at my notes last night and noticed where I've had the 108 Eubers clear up to 3440 using the 6.5X47L case..... holey crap!! I'd forgotten just how tough these things are in a pinch! Notes also say "primers gone in three firings...." :p Although I've never leaked one nor blown a primer, yet. Not one.

And for alla' you'se (not Charles) who want to tell me about all the Tac stuff available in the glossy magazines and talked about over in The Heide, please don't bother. I need big AND truly accurate...... The only reason it won't be built on the 338 Lapua case is that no one makes a really good action yet. And the only reason it won't be a 338 is that no one makes the bullet jackets yet.

I DO BELIEVE in the magic bullets...... but you also need a Magic Gun to take advantage of them fer real.

It's amazing how many barrels shoot well on a Magic Gun :)

opinionsby

al
 
Ohh, and BTW Charles, the "Dasher" has come a long ways since folks have learned how to build them. The 22DAsher was specifically DESIGNED to make good use of components and to promote jam-fit fireforming whereas the newer "6 Dasher" is a late-term monster which is a real B**** to make brass for....... but it works OK provided you make good brass. Not as well as the 6X47L, but OK......

AND..... the 6X47L done right also takes some specialized forming equipment.... but at least the headspace works.

al
 
And Charles......

I've called around for RWS 404 brass lately and had little luck..... 20 here, 40 there, mostly on closeout. Back when I was pursuing the Boo Boo style 68mm case it was worse but I wasn't looking for something as common as 404. Maybe I need an update.... Umarex won't sell to me but are there other suppliers who regularly stock RWS 404???

This IS the base case I've decided on......

Unless someone talks me out of it.

thanx

al
 
alinwa said:
And Charles......

I've called around for RWS 404 brass lately and had little luck..... 20 here, 40 there, mostly on closeout. Back when I was pursuing the Boo Boo style 68mm case it was worse but I wasn't looking for something as common as 404. Maybe I need an update.... Umarex won't sell to me but are there other suppliers who regularly stock RWS 404???
Click to expand...
No. Back in the late 1990s, RWS decided that they would no longer make the brass. As the supply ran out, all that was available from RWS was loaded .404 rounds. Talk about expensive. What I have left was expensive, too -- they were factory primed, around $2.00 each.

Of course, Norma makes .404 cases, but you won't go there.

Take your wife to Europe -- wouldn't she enjoy that? And while you're there, pick up a few hundred RWS 8x68S cases. Actually, my .30 on the 8x68 case holds about the same amount of water as a .308 Norma Mag. I've pushed the neck/shoulder back a bit, so I suppose you can get a bit more from the case, but it is essentially between a .308 Norma Mag and a .300 Win Mag - i.e., not "big."

Dave was playing with a new case from Hornady, I believe. Bigger than the 8x68. I forget the body dimensions, might have been on .338 Lapua. ask him.

You'd probably have better luck finding RWS .375 cases. Turn the belt off for a beltless .300 Ackley. Or, what about an Accuracy International action for the .338 Lapua size cases? Again, Ask Dave, he's working with AI on a number of projects.

I think this thread has moved a bit beyond th Dasher . . .
 
Hi Guys , I notice my name used in this thread in conjunction with the BIB bullets.. So i thought i'd add my version .. I started using the slow twist/187BIB set up in 2003 because of the success of Dave T/ CharlesB/ Charles E and Joel P In your country.. I am sure that the decision was the right one because of simply the results ,against all the chambering's and Bullets& Barrels that have been thrown at me i still get a great result.. The gun has shot not only the best H/G groups and scores in Australia, but the 6/10 match group/score aggs for a number of years in a row ..The twist/ bullet combo just does not get punished in our wind shifts like the small to mid 6s do but hey i'm glad everybody reads these pages and goes for the latest 6brxyz .. Knowing that there are guys using all sorts of stuff to win matchs proves that there is more than one way to skin a c.t ,especially in Long Range Benchrest ..JR..Jeff Rogers
 
Charles E said:
No. Back in the late 1990s, RWS decided that they would no longer make the brass. As the supply ran out, all that was available from RWS was loaded .404 rounds. Talk about expensive. What I have left was expensive, too -- they were factory primed, around $2.00 each.

Of course, Norma makes .404 cases, but you won't go there.

Take your wife to Europe -- wouldn't she enjoy that? And while you're there, pick up a few hundred RWS 8x68S cases. Actually, my .30 on the 8x68 case holds about the same amount of water as a .308 Norma Mag. I've pushed the neck/shoulder back a bit, so I suppose you can get a bit more from the case, but it is essentially between a .308 Norma Mag and a .300 Win Mag - i.e., not "big."

Dave was playing with a new case from Hornady, I believe. Bigger than the 8x68. I forget the body dimensions, might have been on .338 Lapua. ask him.

You'd probably have better luck finding RWS .375 cases. Turn the belt off for a beltless .300 Ackley. Or, what about an Accuracy International action for the .338 Lapua size cases? Again, Ask Dave, he's working with AI on a number of projects.

I think this thread has moved a bit beyond th Dasher . . .
Click to expand...

Well there ya' have it...... a nice synopsis of why I'm stuck with the Remington 404 brass.........

As I said, I'm going where no gun has gone before. :) The AI stuff isn't even in the ballpark although I AM using their mag in on setup, Manners' stock w/probably PSS metal. This is for a midrange WSM setup. Badger bottom metal is OK too.

The staggered mags and bottom metal for the RUM project are still unavailable but in the chute.

al
 
Hi Jerry, I based my cartridge i call the 300 Redneck on the 300 Win Mag because of the RWS and Lapua brass availability.. It is shortened to 2.600 and the neck lengthened to .340 (+.070).. I think Charles and the other 308NM users have it right in capacity for the H4831 style of powders.. Mine sits at 90 gns of H2O with the RWS case and 92 for the Lapua,..Body taper / size is std with the shoulder set back to 35 deg at the same time of lengthening the neck(important to my way of fireforming) .. Loads and speeds i don't publicly share but i will say it's 19 minutes up on the NF 12x 42 from 100yds to 1000yds on my home range .. I have used 12.8 in twist to 13.5 in and even at the pace of my set up it's still pretty low RPMs which i think is important ..JR..Jeff Rogers
JerryK said:
Jeff, if I could ask what case/capacity/chamber you are using with the 187 BIB bullets? Twist and velocity?
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