6 mm BRX - what freebore and neck should I use?

Chisolm said:
Rodney,
It looks like your neck shoulder junction(1.588") is past the case mouth(1.579"). That puppy is going to be tough to grind. :D

James
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Actually there's a few numbers out of whack on that print:

Typical BRX is right around 1.171" from bolt face to shoulder (his is .019" more);

Typical BRX for his set up should have neck shoulder junction at around 1.334" (his is .254" longer)

Head space number does not appear correct either by about .020" too long.

Robert Whitley
 
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I'm not sure where that print came from and I should have looked at it closer. Anyway the attached reamer print is supposed to be the reamer i am using currently:

2zoi05g.jpg
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eggman

Did you ask to go .120" longer with the shoulder blow out than a 6BR (vs .100" which is the norm for the 6BRX)?

Your print indicates that.

Now your longer free bore is put in a whole different light because with a much longer body and a much shorter neck, if you want to have the junction of the boat tail and bearing surface of the bullet up forward of the neck/shoulder junction of the case, you must have a longer free bore.

Like I said before, there is no standard for the BRX - and that's why you need to see the whole picture to see what's going on.

If you took a typical BRX with a .100" forward shoulder and put that .162" free bore on it, most shooters would say the free bore is too long.

You must have also had a special head space gage made up for that chamber (i.e. .120" longer than a 6BR vs the typical BRX which is .100" longer than a 6BR).

Now I would really like to see Lynn's print to see how it compares.

Robert Whitley
 
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Robert,
My reamer is supposed to be a copy of an old " tried and true" reamer that was bought used and we didn't know much of it's history other than it made some outstandingly accurate barrels for us and was getting long in tooth. We sent the reamer to Kiff to copy with the exception of a longer freebore and that was what he was supposed to do . Now I'm questioning the accuracy of this print also because a standard 6BRX go gage is working just fine for this reamer.

Rodney
 
Upandcoming
If I were you I would call Dave Kiff or Kathleen at Pacific Precision as this thread has deteriated to the point you will never be able to salvage any useful information out of it.

Rodney
I have old 105's from when Walt put them in a 80 count box and I have all of the newer 100-108 grain 6mm bullets including some from Australia.My freebore has never been a problem except for using the 108 Eubers which are 0.055 longer than all the others.I set my chambers up so I have 0.050 clearance between the boattail/bearing surface junction and the neck/shoulder junction just to be on the safe side.
I have a throater as Charles E described earlier and have gone as much as 0.210 on the freebore using the standard 6BR case.You get very close to the next node/sweetspot by lengthening your freebore but you never quite make it in my experience.If you use 8208 XBR the throater and long freebore help that powder out more than any other powder I have ever tried.
I am glad you posted your chamber print as it shows Robert what I was talking about earlier when I asked him about your extra long freebore.
Waterboy
 
Lynn said:
Upandcoming
. . . this thread has deteriated to the point you will never be able to salvage any useful information out of it.

. . .

Waterboy
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Lynn

Actually this thread is one of the more interesting threads on the BRX I have seen and a lot to be learned here about the BRX (despite the fact that you have some apparent personal issue with me or my postings which I don't understand because I don't even know you).

The chamber reamer I posted earlier represents the "standard" or "normal" BRX type reamer (to the extent that there is such a thing), and it represents perhaps one of the most common body and neck designs (and head space) used by competitors with the BRX. The body and neck also represents one of the most popular set ups for competitive shooting for reamers made and sold by PT&G and also JGS (and I worked with both of them on this issue). By the way, Redding also makes their BRX dies (for the limited BRX die offerings they have) to that design and those body dimensions (I also worked with Patrick Ryan, the design engineer at Redding on this issue).

What you see with Rodney's reamer postings is two fold:

1. Rodney's reamer drawing is for a "BRX" with a head space and body length .020" longer than what is thought of in the industry as the standard BRX body and head space (yet it is still called a BRX). When is the last time you saw a cartridge with a .020" longer head space called the same thing as the cartridge with the shorter head space? Clearly SAAMI would never accept that or permit that (two cartridges called the same thing with a .020" longer head space between them - that's a recipe for an accident for sure). Like I said, no exact standard in the industry for a BRX, and anyone reading the threads on this and other forums needs to be careful what information they rely upon.

2. Rodney's first reamer posting shows a situation I have seen as well - mistakes on prints even though they have supposedly been checked and reviewed for accuracy. There is just no substitute for reading your print carefully and checking and double checking things (i.e. "measure twice, cut once" principle).

As far as free bore length - the reality is, and what this thread shows is, there is no "best" free bore length, what you select and is best really depends on what bullets you are going to shoot out of it and how long the bearing surface is of those bullets, and where you want them to sit in the case, and for people to throw out a free bore length as being "best" (like you saying .104" is best) is really not helpful unless there is more information included (i.e. like what bullet it is good for and why, where it sits in the case when it hits the lands, etc.).

Robert Whitley
 
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Up & coming:

Hell. if we're going to play "I was there," I remember the (now) BRX from when Bob Crone started it. He started it as a 1,000 yard bechrest shooter, before his F-class days. As I remember, all he did was to run in a standard 6BR reamer long. So, the "freebore" for the first .XXX of the case had the diameter of the neck. He ran it in long enough to properly seat the bullet he was using at the time -- probably the then-new Hornaday A-Max. Bob had gotten some pre-production A-Maxs, and they shot fantastic. When the production bullets came along, not so good -- but Bob was in the clover as long as those hand-made, pre-production bullets lased. (BTW, that was in the 1990s, and for all I know, Hornady has solved the initial production issues, and new A-Max may be as good as anything else these days.)

So, all the BRX is is a poor man's Dasher -- If you had a 6BR, you didn't have to by new dies or a new reamer, as long as you were willing to put up with some of your freebore having the diameter of the case neck, Hell, clearance is clearance, right?.

Any advantage the BRX has over the standard BR or Dasher comes from powder capacity, not "design." Personally I'd say get a Dasher -- and that's what I've done. But to each their own; I'm sure the mouse jockies can come up with hundreds of reasons for why the BRX is somehow "better."

Moral is, if you don't already own dies, a reamer, whatever, take a look at the other 6mms around this size. Nothing magical about a BRX.

If you do decide to use the BRX, I still say pick your bullets (esp. since you don't live in the States) and tell the reamer maker. Let him figure things out. Or, order one with .060 freebore, and spend $75 on a throater, a bit more on a T-handle, and a bit more to have a gunsmith make up a delrin guide to fit your bolt raceway & make a stop for the T-handle.

Good luck to you
 
Upandcoming
Read the post by Charles E as he actually shot with the inventor of the cartridge at its inception and has it correct.

Robert
I am glad you think your 3rd attempt at the BRX is the standard by which all others are based but as Charles E has pointed out Bob Crone simply ran his 6BR reamer in deeper and instant BRX.The freebore on a reamer doesn't change length when it is run in further.This leads me to believe his freebore is not like you represent it to be.
I see you are keeping with your notion that I am taking your posts personaly.I can assure you nothing about your posts here have even got my attention other than the fact you are muddying the waters were they don't need muddying in my humble opinion.
As to your conclusion that Rodneys reamer print is full of mistakes I thought Rodney explained this to you already?
Again without you thinking this is a personal attack what sanctioning body do you shoot under as I am still unable to find your match results on the NBRSA or IBS websites? I ask this only because I shoot a 6Dasher currently in lightgun and if your "Standard Reamer" is doing so well I would like to sell mine and re-order a new one based on your included print.
I shoot with some extremely good shooters and they all have opinions.One of them has a gun with 3500 rounds down a barrel that has never been cleaned.He has 3 Championships under his belt.
Despite "His" success I still clean my barrels so you can see I don't believe erverything I see or read.
Waterboy
 
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Charles E said:
Up & coming:

. . .

So, all the BRX is is a poor man's Dasher . . .

Any advantage the BRX has over the standard BR or Dasher comes from powder capacity, not "design." Personally I'd say get a Dasher -- and that's what I've done. But to each their own; I'm sure the mouse jockies can come up with hundreds of reasons for why the BRX is somehow "better."

Moral is, if you don't already own dies, a reamer, whatever, take a look at the other 6mms around this size. Nothing magical about a BRX.

. . .
Click to expand...

Charles

Dittos - I have both - but what I find is the Dasher vs BRX situation is a little like the old Ford vs Chevy argument with some (as it is with a lot of other shooting choices and preferences). In truth, they're both great cartridges, but people have their preferences and passions, so people make their choices and run with them.

Robert Whitley
 
Upandcoming
Dave Kiff called me twice today to talk about the 6BRX but I was at work.I will give him a call in the morning and relay to you via PM anything he feels you need to know.

If you have been following this thread and I suspect you have several things should jump out at you.
The first thing to jump out at you should be Robert Whitleys posts about how his reamers dimensions are the standard of the industry and how he has worked with several manufacturers to develop his design.In reality this is pure nonsense.Please look at the upper right hand corner of any PT&G drawing and you'll see the date listed when the design was drawn. Look at Roberts drawing and you'll see how long he could have even owned his reamer let alone calling it the standard of the industry.
The second thing to note is he won't respond about his Benchrest background.When you come on a Benchrest forum and claim to have all this experience in working with a cartridge design your drawing should be more than 2 months old and you should have atleast shot in an actual benchrest match with it.
This cartridge has been around for many years and we have a poster claiming his design is the end all of all creation yet we see no wins from him in a Benchrest Match ever.
Waterboy
 
Lynn

I stand by the accuracy and truth of what I said in my postings.

If you are going to go negative and personal with this thread that's your choice (and your issues) - I am not going there!

This is America and you still have the right to express your views but I will stay factual, truthful and positive.

Robert Whitley
 
rcw3
Robert you came on here and basicaly told us we didn't know how to buy a reamer.You asked if I was posting hearsay or if I had actually worked with the cartridge.You then go on to say you have the ultimate reamer design and start slinging names around to bolster your expert opinion claim.
Myself on the other hand I gave the guy an answer that mimmicks an earlier posters answers and you come back here with another long drawn out story of why we are all wrong.
I did a web search and can't find you winning any benchrest matches so I asked were you shoot several times never to get an answer and I don't know why? I shoot on the westcoast and a quick search will give you the answer if I am posting hearsay.
Charles E points out the history of the cartridge and how he shot with its inventor in the 1990's and all of a sudden your now in agreement that 0.015 worth of freebore means nothing while earlier it was a big deal and we spec stuff to 0.00000001 of an inch or our reamer is not top notch like your standard of the industry design.
I was then comparing your reamer print to my own and the only spec that really stuck out was the date you bought it which was 2 months ago.
I am being as positive and upbeat as a man can be when he is being told by someone he can't find in any match reports with 2 months worth of experience on a wildcat reamer who is claiming that his design is the end all creation of all time and everybody is using it who is winning and that all the big dogs are using it.
Obviously if all the big dogs bought one in the last two months and are having the success you claim in such a short period of time I want one!!!!!
You can't see me but believe me when I tell you I am smiling like all get out on this end of the world wide web.This is Benchest Central were Benchrest questions are asked and answered.If you feel someone asking about your benchrest credentials when none can be found is out of line or negative you are sadly mistaken.If you think someone questioning your bigger than life posts knowing you have only had
your reamer in hand for 2 months is out of line once again you are sadly mistaken.Many of the posters here have been using the cartridge for a decade not 2 months and when you won't answer any questions your posts become suspect at best.The only thing I can find about you relating to benchrest shooting is a post about Williamsport and it was ugly.
Waterboy aka Lynn
P.S. You can look up the match results for the last ten years in the NBRSA and you'll see Lynn in there.Heck you can even search the match results here and find me.I am guessing you don't understand the word Hearsay?:D
 
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Lynn Dragoman

Apparently you did not understand my earlier posting, please see above.

Robert Whitley
 
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Robert Whitley
I would like an honest and truthful answer to my inquiries but you keep alluding this why?
Lynn Dragoman aka WATERBOY
 
Lynn said:
Robert Whitley
I would like an honest and truthful answer to my inquiries but you keep alluding this why?
Lynn Dragoman aka WATERBOY
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Lynn

You might want to look up the definition of the word "alluding" as your question does not make sense with your choice of that word.

How about this - -

1. How about posting your BRX reamer drawing so we can see its dimensions and why you feel that is the "best"?

2. How about offering some facts with explanations why the dimensions of the BRX reamer drawing I posted are not appropriate for bench rest shooting and why yours are?

3. Why is a .470" diameter .200" forward of the bolt face not appropriate?

4. Why is .460" as a shoulder diameter for the BRX not appropriate?

5. Why is the body length of 1.171" for a BRX not appropriate?

6. Why is the minimum of head space datum of 1.283" (at .330" in diameter) not correct or appropriate?

7. Why is .272" not an appropriate neck diameter (Rodney's reamer has that as well)?

8. Why is a chamber max of 1.560" (with a plus tolerance of .005") not appropriate?

9. Why is .2432" (with a plus tolerance of .0004") not proper for a free bore diameter?

10. Why is a .120" free bore not appropriate for 105-108 gr bullets?

I don't see any information in this thread to suggest that any of these dimensions are not good or proper, or that the reamer drawing I posted is not proper or appropriate for bench rest or other competitive shooting. Some run with a .268" neck turn neck, but there are a whole lot of shooters using the .272" as a "no neck turn" neck (ask Dave - I did not make that up, that came straight from him).

There's an old saying in the law that when someone tries to make their case only by attacking the character of the other side, it means they don't have the facts or law on their side. Let's see the facts and let's bring something positive and useful to the readers of this forum about the BRX!

Robert Whitley
 
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An interesting tidbit. The reamer drawings Rodney posted are of an earlier developmental BRX reamer design, and as far as I have been able to determine his BRX chambers are actually cut by short chambering (about .020" short) with that reamer (i.e. to the proper head space of the BRX cartridge which is .100" more than a 6BR). That being said, the dimensions on the reamer drawing are not true to his chamber (his net result is everything is about .020" shorter). Clearly nothing wrong with the chamber he has, just not to the prints.

Robert Whitley
 
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rcw3 said:
Lynn

You might want to look up the definition of the word "alluding" as your question does not make sense with your choice of that word.


Verb 1. allude - make a more or less disguised reference to; "He alluded to the problem but did not mention it"
advert, touch
hint, suggest - drop a hint; intimate by a hint
concern, have-to doe with, pertain, bear on, come to, touch on, refer, relate, touch - be relevant to; "There were lots of questions referring to her talk"; "My remark pertained to your earlier comments"

Robert Whitley
I looked it up and will stand by its usage.


How about this - -

I find it funny that you won't be honest and truthful enough to answer my questions yet you want me to answers yours.


"There's an old saying in the law that when someone tries to make their case only by attacking the character of the other side, it means they don't have the facts or law on their side. Let's see the facts and let's bring something positive and useful to the readers of this forum about the BRX!"

I posted my specs for all to see and Roibert Whitley came on here right after my post and attacked them as Hearsay and aasked if I have ever worked with the cartridge.
I suggest you read your own quote above as it applies to you more than it applies to myself.All I want is for you to honestly and truthfullty answer the questions.You have responded many times now and yourt refusal to post honest and truthful answers is disturbing and begs the question-WHY?
Waterboy
PM sent to Upandcoming
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Lynn

FYI - Allude is an intransitive verb (not transitive as you used it).

Robert
 
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